rugeruser,

THANKS!!!! That was an excellent response and exactly what I was looking for.

ASS_CLOWN

Ass Clown and Rugeruser,

I, unfortunately, got sucked into one of Ass Clowns ridiculous questions awhile back and eventually (I'm a slow learner sometimes) realized that this guy chose a very appropriate handle on here.

When I find people being absurd I will normally answer them with asurdity in return...or just ignore them completely.

In the case of Mr. Ass Clown I believe I will go back to doing the latter...but I just couldn't pass up the "upside down" gag!


Rick

rick,

Quote:

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, unfortunately, got sucked into one of Ass Clowns ridiculous questions awhile back

---

I never understood what you took offense to in the thread you are referencing. Would you mind explaining it to me again, I guess I am THAT slow.

ASS_CLOWN

I will reply once (and only once) to your question.

I took no "offence" to anything you said...but after I figured out that you just like to keep a topic going just for the hell of it and not to have any real questions answered, I decided I would rather not play your game any longer.

There are tons of books out there, as well as numerous web sites, that give the answers to these technical questions of yours...but I guess that doesn't give you the human interaction that you so obviously, and desperately need.

If you were truly as interested in machine guns as you try to appear I would think that you would avail yourself of all the opportunities available at numerous ranges to actually handle and fire these weapons as well as to speak with the people who own and maintain them.

Have a wonderful life!

Rick

Rick,

I appreciate your candor. I apologize to you if you feel my questions are a waste of time. I will research shooting opportunities around here, but I am not aware of any places till you hit Kentucky ~ 400 miles away!

I'll try not to bore you with my "stupid" questions any longer.

ASS_CLOWN

Hello:
My experience with the Bren relates a short time I spent in the militia in the late 60's, before being disillusioned. We probably had the last junkiest Brens left in the Canadian army. On an attack, You would grab the gun by the barrel handle and commence running towards the enemy. About 5 or 6 steps out you would suddenly realize all you had in your hand was the barrel.
Grizz

Just another note from my buddy, he tells me they were 30 round mags but they only loaded them to 28 for reliability as policy. It really is a nice piece of kit, and sometimes when you fire from prone, you don't actually have it up on the bipod as you're trying to get as low as you can (the burrowing thing), hence the concern over the mags height. I spoke with two relatives who toted them in the 2nd world war, and aside from some bitching about the weight, they both thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.FWIW - Dan

Dan,

Speaking from personal experience I can assure you that when you are being shot at you will swear that your shirt buttons and belt buckle are keeping you from getting low enough to the ground.

Rick

Apparently the worst thing about the Bren gun was it was TOO accurate ,instead of spraying bullets all over the place it would put all its bullets into 3 inches at 100 yards .my father used them when he was in the Australian National service and sometimes they would tear the rim off the case leaving the rest in the chamber, apparently there was a special tool for extracting the case.

Kos,

your Dad's absolutely right! That's what I was referring to when I mantioned that the 'cone of fire' was too small - (ask your Dad, he'll know how to explain it to you). And yes, occasionally they did pull the rim, but was pretty rare in a well maintained gun (ie, had to be pretty dirty to malfunction!!).

Thanks for the memory jog - the max capacity was 30, but reliable operation was 28 - that's why I couldn't recall which one it was!!

Grizz - ever heard of making sure the barrel locking lever is down? At least you wouldn't be weighed down by the rest of the thing!! I've seen it happen when a gunner stood up, and the handle got caught in their webbing.

And yeah, I know what you mean about your belt buckle stopping you from getting low enough!!

Whether or not this has been a stir up thread started by Ass Clown, I don't care, it's brought back some good (and some not so good) memories, and I hope someone has found it useful.

I've heard a story of a smart arse Warrant Officer hitting along the top of the back stop at a range so as to spray the spotter/scorekeepers with rocks and dirt.

At 300yds with a Bren...wish I could have one.



BTW,

BR-was taken from BRNO who came up with the design.

EN-was from Enfield who first made them for the Commonwealth.

rugeruser,



I am very happy that this thread has brought back some good memories for you. I find that is often the case when I ask veterans about their experiences with the "tools of their trade".



Do you recall ever having any issues with dirt or debris working it's way into the gas cylinder via the gas evacuation ports (I am talking about those holes drilled radially into the gas cylinder just behind the gas block and forward of the deflector plate, do you know what I mean??) Those holes are pretty BIG and I just thought they may have had a nasty tendency to gather dirty.



EDIT (I HAD A PICTURE!)







Another point of interest. Did you ever have to turn up the gas pressure via the throttle on the gas block? Seems to me that rifle would have to be VERY dirty to need to shift gears and go to a larger hole.



Dan,



Anything you can tell me about the Lewis gun would be GREAT! I have lusted for one of those for years, but everytime one shows up I am broke!



ASS_CLOWN

From ASS_CLOWN:

Quote:

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but everytime one shows up I am broke!

---

So you must have a Class III, along with everything else you own? Turd Boy, it's too bad you can't package and sell your bullshit, you'd make Bill Gates look poor. Too bad there's no market for stupidity.

rugeruser,



Here is a far better picture of what I was talking about in my last post. To those that don't know, the silver object you see at the bottom of those "blue" holes is the case piston.







Here is a close-up of the barrel nut lever. You can see the locking claw if you look closely enough (there is a pivot pin in the lever for the claw which may help you see the actual claw)







Here is a close-up of the gas block adjustment LH side:







The (4) different sized indentations indicate the gas orfice size. Like I said I cannot imagine what it would take to ever have to leave the smallest!



Here is a close-up of the top of the receiver, showing the mag release lever, dust cover (partially open) and a hint at the breach block (action has been made safe i.e. the bolt is closed) The shiny thing in the middle of the receiver LH side of picture (looks like a finger sort of) is the ejector. The charging handle is also visible in the bottom of the picture.







Bring back any memories? Like I said before I truly appreciate your comments, as well as those of the others that have "been there and done that"!



Any additional comments on the questions from my last post would be VERY much appreciated.







ASS_CLOWN

Shaun, it wasn't just WO's who did that, EVERYONE from School Cadet units up (myself included ) did it. Also did it with 'massed firing' with SMLE's and SLR's - makes your score pretty low, but it's a heck of a lot of fun!

Took my boy out to Anzac Range at Malabar a few weeks ago and again today to shoot with the Naval Reserve Club - gee it brought back some memories!! He loves it! Seeing the 'lollypop' scoring disk come up reminded me of the times we'd arrange to 'get it'! It was strictly forbidden, but the idea was to organise everyone to have a crack at one particular lollypop - prearranged. We'd all have a sighting shot, and there would always be one team at the butts that was slower than anyone else - there's your target!! Poor bastard would put the disc up, and we'd all let rip! Totally 'illegal' and totally irresponsible, but great fun!!

Got thrown off the range a couple of times for that, and threatened with a demotion when I was a Cadet, but... you do that when you're a kid!!

As an aside, my son aquitted himself very well on both occasions - using a CZ527 in 223 (5 shot mag compared to 10 plus stripper clips in the service rifles), he got away all his shots, and was remarkably accurate. It's a demanding shoot, and he bettered his old Man!! Try firing 10 shots in 25 seconds, 25 second break, then another 10 shots in 25 seconds, with a 527!! He used the mag for the first five, then SINGLE LOADED each and every round - 74% accuracy at 300 yards!! Woohoo!! He's quick!

Bastard! Can't complain, I trained him!!

I was using my 270, and had the pleasure of not recycling the bolt before the empty had ejected - thought I had a misfire/hangfire, so I blew it!!

"Such is life"!!

AC - Don't recall any issues with the gas ports allowing crap into the system, the fact they 'vented' gas would clear anything away! Even after dragging the gun through mud, I never had a malfunction - maybe I had a good 'un, but I don't recall anyone else having issues with it, either!



To refer to your first photo, to help others who may not be as familiar, at the extreme right hand edge of the photo is the handle which turned the gas block (see third photo for what it looks like from the other side).



As far as turning the gas block to it's largest hole, when you're 'in the thick of it', you don't take notes!!!! I do recall having to turn up to 3 after considerable use, but I may have gone further - see previous comment!! Clean, the gun always functioned perfectly on the smallest - as it got used, and depending on the amount of cleaning we were able to do, we needed to 'turn up the wick' occasionally!



Re photo 2, yes, you can see the lock - It's the little black protrusion just above '30' in the date stamp. In all fairness to our Canadian friend, occasionally we DID get a gun where the locking claw wouldn't lock - very, very rare, but it did happen - that gun went straight back to the armoury, where invariably, it was fixed.



AC, it wasn't a 'bolt', it was a 'breech block' - bolts rotate - the block locked by being cammed up into the receiver by the forward movement of the piston! Sorry to be pedantic



I'v enever seen a cocking handle that shape - all the ones I saw were sort of a 'double cone' in shape, and folded forward in use.



Great photo's, and really give an insight into the workmanship that went into these guns!!



Guys, and Girls, if you haven't seen one, they're worth looking at - compare it to an SKS, or similar. Beautiful.



Thanks for the photo's. I'd love to get my hands on one again (not in a museum)!!



Are you guys actually able to BUY these things??

rugeruser,

Sorry for the misused terminology (in my defense you will notice I termed it correctly the first time and them mistakenly the second) you are quite right it is a breech block.

Thanks for all the invaluable recollections of your first hand experiences! At least they are invaluable to me.

Quote:

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Are you guys actually able to BUY these things

---

They are VERY few and far between, but it is possible to privately own BRENs in the good ol' US of A.

ASS_CLOWN

"Pecos,"

Are you always an Alpha Hotel, or does it just come natural?

The man was just asking a question fer crying out loud.

Are you the "Man", no, then just chill out.

Holly molly.

Eric

RU, here in Canada if you had one before 78, you can still own them, but no one since. It makes the pool a little smaller every year.

AC, my friend Mike has quite an extensive collection, some of which he has sold off, he's had two Lewis guns, one a squad weapon the other from a aircraft mount, the BREN, an MG34 and 42, M-2 50 BMG, STENS, a very nice 1928 Thompson (which I've been trying to buy off him for ages, now he says he'll put me in his will, LOL), a Walther MPK (I think, I might be wrong about the initials), a select fire M-14, lots of nice toys. We only get to take them to the range a couple of times a year (the government freaks out everytime we have a full auto day at the range, it's kind of fun to watch the mountie's faces). Not sure what will happen when the last one of us dies, I guess the last guy gets all the toys. - Dan

AC, no worries, mate! Glad my input has been of help!

Eric, Ass Clown has made a career here at AR, of feigning complete ignorance of a subject, asking a long string of very basic questions, which appear to demonstrate his inability to understand what posters are trying to tell him, and THEN he comes off as the expert, and show everyone who responded to him as not knowing as much as he does.

Read the thread from earlier this month about cook-offs to fully understand his bullshit. He is truly a TROLL of the highest (or lowest) order.

120mm,



The thread you reference was not asked as a trolling event! I merely was asking if ANYONE HAD ACTUALLY SEEN AN OPEN BOLT FIRING MACHINE GUN COOK-OFF ROUNDS! As it turned out NO ONE HAD! They had seen runaways and knew that the military manuals warned against cook-offs IF A ROUND HAD FAILED TO FIRE IN THE FIRST PLACE IN A VERY HOT BARREL!!



I knew that all very well! Just SO YOU UNDERSTAND LET ME REPEAT MYSELF AGAIN! ALL I WANTED TO KNOW IS IF ANYONE HAD ACTUALLY SEEN AN OPEN BOLT FIRING MACHINE GUN, IN PARTICULAR ONE THAT IS BELT FED, EXHIBIT A SUSTAINED COOK-OFF FROM THE OPEN BOLT POSITION (COCKED)! As far as I knew this was/is a near impossibility! The military manuals agree with me, the manufacturers agree with me, and everyone I have spoken with in person (as well as those responding to THAT thread) agreed with me on this.



Got it, clear? It isn't my fault some of the responders did not know which MG's fired from open bolts and which did not! I realize some may have been going back over decades to attempt to remember how individual MGs worked, so it is okay with me if they forgot how something worked. Afterall I already knew how they worked, that wasn't the information I was interested in.



Seriously, you boys are MIGHTY thin skinned, I suggest you toughen up a bit.



By the way, do you have anything constructive (read pertinent to THIS THREAD's subject) to add, or are you just cryin' somemore?



ASS_CLOWN

Okay, so I will quote your original question:

"Why do machine guns cook-off rounds? Specifically, the M60, M1919, M240, etc."

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

What you WERE doing, despite your pathetic whining to the contrary, was TROLLING for someone to put down, which you did, when you said that Rick (and DigitalDan) was lying to you. Your follow up questions suggested that highly.

If you were really interested in the weapons involved, I would suggest that you do some research, but I think you already have, and get your kicks off of showing your knowledge, after twisting someone elses' words.

My problem is with your seeming inability to understand some of the most fundamental points folks are attempting to make to you, and then all of a sudden you vomit forth some really involved and intricate explanation, which illustrates that you already know enough that you should have known the answer in the first place.

Perhaps it is just a problem with style, but your way of asking questions combined with your "designed to piss people off" monicker makes me want to flame you whenever you appear.

I'm tough enough to call out fuck wads like you, whenever I encounter them, thanks.

Well, it looks like I'm a 'victim' of AC's 'trolling' - I have reviewed this thread, and I haven't found anything here to support the your arguments.

Any questions AC has asked have, IMHO, been well phrased, and at no stage has he/she suddenly emerged with more 'knowledge' - maybe that is yet to come. It doesn't matter to me. I have tried to respond to the questions to the best of my knowledge and ability - and I have not detected anything in AC's responses that would suggest anything other than a genuine interest in a fine piece of machinery.

As a respondent, I have no issues, and I'm pleased if Ass_Clown and others have benefited from my posts.

120mm,

I NEVER called Rick a liar, PERIOD!

I think WHAT IS REALLY GOIN ON HERE has to do with my handle, plain and simple. Get over it already why don't ya.

Digitaldan was ONE of the individuals saying that an open bolt firing machine guns can have cook-offs resulting in sustained fire! He later recanted that statement (specifically the part about the cook-off, not that he saw a machine gun firing without the trigger pulled) and I think he realized that what he SAW was IN FACT a runaway.

ASS_CLOWN

rugeruser,

You may want to stay out of this. There are few "gentlemen" here that have some kinda problem with me.

ASS_CLOWN

Dear ASS CLOWN,

Here is a quote from you, who doesn't know anything about machineguns.

"The point Rick is that a COOK OFF CANNOT HAPPEN unless the cartridge FIRST fails to fire. So to me anyway, this is an ammunition issue not a firearm issue. Also, the weapon isn't going to go bang, then bang again, then bang again. Some guys were saying that these machine guns would shoot out an entire belt by cooking them off."

"I now know they were no telling me the facts."

"Thanks for all your input though."

ASS_CLOWN

Rugerusa, I think you need to work on your reading comprehension, if you don't think that thread was pure troll, especially the way old A_C kept "misinterpreting" other folks' explanations and then taking issue with them from an apparent position of authority.

ASS_CLOWN, it IS somewhat about your handle. You are so pathetic with your attempts to get attention by being shocking, whether it is your handle or your inane questions, where you ask things about things you appear to be familiar with. If folks take offense at your intentionally offensive handle, aren't you achieving what you want and getting the attention you so desperately crave? Actually, Pecos and I are doing you a favor.

I'm sorry you have those feelings of inadequacy. It's not our fault your daddy or mommy didn't love you enough, or whatever is behind your pathetic and amateurish attempts at attention.

So tell us all 120mm, how long have you had these feelings that EVERYONE is out to get you?

Give it a break already! Not trolling, regardless of the handle.

ASS_CLOWN

AC, point taken, but I'm not known for walking away from a stoush. IMO, you asked reasonable questions, I responded, and everyone was happy. At no time did I feel 'wronged'. If I had, I would have ignored it.



Other 'contributors' referring to posts made on another thread and using them to sling mud turned this thread from a pleasant exchange between people who share a common interest into a swag of totally irrelevant and unnecessary invective, which did much to decrease the pleasure of using this site.



I know us Aussies are renowned for stirring, and we enjoy it, but we also know when to back off. But we don't like shit stirrers, nor do we suffer fools gladly.



120mm, perhaps you might like to re-read my post - in case you're lexically challenged, I referred to 'this' thread. Since I evidently need to brush up on my written comprehension skills, perhaps you mght be of assistance by pointing out AC's posts that you find offensive... on 'this' thread?



If you read maintenance manuals the way you read my post, I pray that I never have the misfortune to be a passenger on an aircraft you have worked on!!

Everyone's gone very quiet?