The problem isn't only that we've left true marksmanship training behind. Up until WWII that was the focus of military weapons training; the ability to shoot little groups at long distances. But the problem with that training was getting people to shoot at other people; some estimates say 80% of combatants under direct enemy fire/observation failed to actively take part in the fight.

Between WWII and VietNam our training methods changed, we gave up on true marksmanship and embraced field firing under the pressure of time and limited exposure. Coupled with human form targets (sometimes with faces and hands painted flesh color), this observe/ID/shoot training had wonderous effect; by the end of VietNam 90% of combatants were shooting at something during a fight.

What we gave up was the basis in true marksmanship, a skill that is the base for all weapons training once the ranges extend beyond 100m. Similarly the military has been very slow to adopt law enforcements findings that training is not complete until the task can be completed to standard under the (duplicated) stress of combat.

Again, it doesn't matter what our soldiers are shooting. We need to train them to consistently hit targets that don't want to be hit, that are exposed for fleeting moments at unknown distances, and all of this while being shot at. Not very easy to train for....

Once that is done we can then determine if our cartridge/weapon combo is up to the task.

Bob

Whats with 5.56 Mk 262 and Mk 262 A 1?

IIRC they use SMK or OTM bullets in the 5.56? Weight - not sure.

( also IIRC the Israelis make an excellent 5.59, 55 grs OTM load - wonder if they use it as a sniper load??? )

H

quote:

Originally posted by Arminius:
Whats with 5.56 Mk 262 and Mk 262 A 1?

IIRC they use SMK or OTM bullets in the 5.56? Weight - not sure.

( also IIRC the Israelis make an excellent 5.59, 55 grs OTM load - wonder if they use it as a sniper load??? )

H

The Mk262 bullets use the 77gr. SMK (IIRC) also the Hornady version (same weight).

These are not great bullets for punching armor.

Sorry if that was not clear from my post:

I don´t want to punch armour.

But I like my bullets to be accurate and effective ...

H

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

My son’s company has five designated marksmen who carry M14’s.

That's the answer....

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

My son’s company has five designated marksmen who carry M14’s.

That's the answer....

That’s my quote about the M-14’s and the only problem in reissuing those rifles is logistics and qualified armorers. The military doesn’t like having to supply ammunition and spare parts for lots of different weapons.

Most of the time my son’s guys have to use de-linked 7.62mm machine gun ammo for their M14’s because the boxed loose rounds are seldom in the supply chain. I had to send them extra magazines because they only issued one per man when they deployed.

Small arms occupy about the lowest rung on the priority ladder at the Pentagon and that doesn’t appear to be changing in the near future.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Arminius:
Whats with 5.56 Mk 262 and Mk 262 A 1?

IIRC they use SMK or OTM bullets in the 5.56? Weight - not sure.

( also IIRC the Israelis make an excellent 5.59, 55 grs OTM load - wonder if they use it as a sniper load??? )

H

The Mk262 bullets use the 77gr. SMK (IIRC) also the Hornady version (same weight).

These are not great bullets for punching armor.

Mk 260 Mod 0: Hornady 75 OTM

Mk 262 Mod 1: Sierra 77 OTM with cannelure

Perhaps they will get these to the guys in the field before too long.


http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_DREAD,,00.html

Would be quite an improvement in humvee armament.

BJB

Like everyone has said before. You've got to hit it first. However... I just returned from Iraq, and I have seen my fair share of insurgents get up and run away after being hit with a 5.56. Those others that were hit with a 7.62 or a .50 went down immediately. I could post a couple of pics, but they're a little too gruesome. The military doesn't need a completely new piece of shit, aka the XM8. All they need to do is to replace the uppers on all the A2s and M4s with the 6.8, and dust off all of the M14s that are lying around in the vaults.

Oh, and just to clear up the twist rate issue on the M4s... it's 1/9 people.

Steel Slinger,
Welcome back, where'd you hang out? I recently returned also, from the Mahmudiyah area.

quote:

Originally posted by Steel Slinger:
Like everyone has said before. You've got to hit it first. However... I just returned from Iraq, and I have seen my fair share of insurgents get up and run away after being hit with a 5.56. Those others that were hit with a 7.62 or a .50 went down immediately. I could post a couple of pics, but they're a little too gruesome. The military doesn't need a completely new piece of shit, aka the XM8. All they need to do is to replace the uppers on all the A2s and M4s with the 6.8, and dust off all of the M14s that are lying around in the vaults.

Oh, and just to clear up the twist rate issue on the M4s... it's 1/9 people.

Welcome home...and thank you for your service, you make all us old vets proud!

My son is a SFC FISTer attached to the 3rd ID just south of Baghdad, his tour is up in January.

quote:

Originally posted by Steel Slinger:
Oh, and just to clear up the twist rate issue on the M4s... it's 1/9 people.

I beg to differ. EVERY M16A2, M16A4, and M4 ever made have a 1 in 7 rifling rate. Made so that they could stabilize the very long M856 tracer ammo.

Rick,
PM sent.

Bob,

Got it...sent one back. Welcome home to you also, my friend!

For whatever its worth, from the DOD website:

M16A2

Primary function: Infantry weapon
Manufacturer: Colt Manufacturing and Fabrique Nationale Manufacturing Inc.
Length: 39.63 inches (100.66 centimeters)
Weight, with 30 round magazine: 8.79 pounds (3.99 kilograms)
Bore diameter: 5.56mm (.233 inches)
Maximum effective range:
Area target: 2,624.8 feet (800 meters)
Point target: 1,804.5 feet (550 meters)
Muzzle velocity: 2,800 feet (853 meters) per second
Rate of fire:
Cyclic: 800 rounds per minute
Sustained: 12-15 rounds per minute
Semiautomatic: 45 rounds per minute
Burst: 90 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds
Unit Replacement Cost: $586

Features: The M16A2 5.56mm rifle is a lightweight, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed, shoulder- or hip-fired weapon designed for either automatic fire (3-round bursts) or semiautomatic fire (single shot) through the use of a selector lever. The weapon has a fully adjustable rear sight. The bottom of the trigger guard opens to provide access to the trigger while wearing winter mittens. The upper receiver/barrel assembly has a fully adjustable rear sight and a compensator which helps keep the muzzle down during firing. The steel bolt group and barrel extension are designed with locking lugs which lock the bolt group to the barrel extension allowing the rifle to have a lightweight aluminum receiver.

Background: The M16A2 rifle is a product improvement of the M16A1 rifle. The improvements are:
• heavier, stiffer barrel than the barrel of the M16A1;
• redesigned handguard, using two identical halves, with a round contour which is sturdier and provides a better grip when holding the rifle;
• new buttstock and pistol grip made of a tougher injection moldable plastic that provides much greater resistance to breakage;
• improved rear sight which can be easily adjusted for windage and range;
• modified upper receiver design to deflect ejected cartridges, and preclude the possibility of the ejected cartridges hitting the face of a left-handed firer;
• burst control device, that limits the number of rounds fired in the automatic mode to three per trigger pull, which increases accuracy while reducing ammunition expenditure;
• muzzle compensator, designed to reduce position disclosure and improve controllability and accuracy in both burst and rapid semi-automatic fire;
• heavier barrel with a 1 in 7 twist to fire NATO standard SS 109 type (M855) ammunition which is also fired from the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). This further increases the effective range and penetration of the rifle cartridge. The M16A2 will also shoot the older M193 ammunition designed for a 1 in 12 twist.

Gunny Bob,
Thanks, it's good to see that you made it home too. I was in central Baghdad. I swear it is the nastiest place on earth.

Rick,
Hope your son makes it back safe. It's a long hellish year. Tell him I said Rock Hard.

HP Shooter,
I'm really not trying to fight with you or anyone else about this, but I just lugged my M4 around for about 15 months straight, and it is clearly stamped on the barrel, "5.56mm NATO 1/9 TWIST".

Steel,

I will pass that along to him tonight, thanks. He shares your feelings about central Baghadad 100%.

Again, welcome home and thank you for serving, your loved ones can sleep better now, and they’ve earned it, as have you!!