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Mosin/Nagant 350 YARD SHOT IRON SIGHTS
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Hog Hunt 5/12/2007 Okeechobee, FL

A clip from the hunt in which Fredrick downs a hog from the platform at ~350 yards. "One of the best shots I've ever seen out here", exlaims the guide.

 
Posts: 56912 | Location: GUNSHINE STATE | Registered: 05 October 2003Reply With Quote
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Wonder how many more Nagants that vid will sell? That guy should get a commission! Big Grin



Doug Humbarger
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Posts: 8351 | Location: Jennings Louisiana, Arkansas by way of Alabama by way of South Carloina by way of County Antrim Irland by way of Lanarkshire Scotland. | Registered: 02 November 2001Reply With Quote
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I've killed rockchucks out to 440 yards with my Iron sighted Fin 39. The Fins put together a nice rifle.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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We routinely shoot our military iron sighted rifles at 500 and 600 yards.

The heavy ball is a particularly accurate round in the 91's.


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Posts: 4594 | Location: TX | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Might just have been that pigs unlucky day.....however, any aimed shot that hits it's mark is a good shot.

Larry Gibson
 
Posts: 1489 | Location: University Place, WA | Registered: 18 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Those older military rifles could be very accurate. One has to remember that they haven't always depended on massed automatic rifle fire to win conflicts. There was a time when it often came down to properly placed individual bullets.

I've got a Springfiled Model 1898 in 30-40 Krag and my brother has a Springfield Model 1903 in 30-06. Our father got these from the NRA over 50 years ago when they were easy to obtain and the gun control nuts were'nt as active as they are now. We've played with them quite a bit over the years and a 350 yard shot is easily within the capability of the rifle.

It is the ability of the people that have changed. Not many shoot open sights anymore and it takes time to learn how to use them right when you've been shooting scopes most your life. This is especially true when the range is somewhat long.
 
Posts: 2940 | Location: Colorado by birth, Navy by choice. | Registered: 26 September 2010Reply With Quote
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At Belleau Wood during WWI, the Marines, armed with the M1903 rifle with open sights, killed Germans who sat up straight behind their machine guns because they thought themselves beyond accurate rifle range. Shots were between 800-1000 yards. Their ability to shoot earned the Marines the title of Teufel Hunden, Hounds of Hell or Devil Dogs, a nickname still used with pride by Marines today. The Marines are credited with winning the battle, after both U.S. Army and French forces failed and retreated.

On a personal note, while in the Corps, I fired the M14 rifle accurately at 500 meters and 500 yards with open sights.


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Posts: 3577 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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My Great Uncle was a Marine at Belleau Wood.

The Marines fought so well during WWI, the Army didn't let them back into Europe in WWII. They were afraid the Marines would steal all the headlines. Again.
 
Posts: 8938 | Location: Dallas TX | Registered: 11 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Why are we so surprised? I don't see the big deal. Why do you think they put those graduations on the sight? Big Grin

Grizz


Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man

Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln

Only one war at a time. Abe Again.
 
Posts: 4211 | Location: Alta. Canada | Registered: 06 November 2002Reply With Quote
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I'm not sure how many Americans are kowledgeable about the shooting at Bisley Range in England, but one of the features of the annual English NRA tournament was the international competitions which used to be held at Bisley range.

For about 70 or 80 years it involved shooting military rifles with open iron sights in competition out to 1,000 yards. It was in the late '60s, if I remember correctly, when peep sights were finally allowed in either of the Service Rifle or Target Rifle competitions.

Scope sights were not allowed even then in either the Service Rifle or Target Rifle configurations. Scopes WERE allowed in "Match Rifle" class (different than Target Rifle), but the Match Rifle ranges were longer yet...out to 1,200 yards.

Anyway, for about 75 years, the Magazine Lee Enfield variations ruled the roost against ALL comers in those competitions, with open iron sights. It was not too greatly unusual for a perfect score to be fired on the central bullseye, with 10 consecutive "centres" at 1,000 yards. "Clean" targets (perfect scores) were quite common out at 800 yards.

Those international matches are still held every year at Bisley, BTW. But today micrometer receiver sights are about all that is used in Target Rifle class, though scopes still are not allowed. TR class is still restricted to military calibres (.223 or .308), and folks who don't shoot clean scores have no great hope of winning the Queen's Medal. No one uses the open sights in competition any more, but that is mainly because the receiver sights are so much easier to adjust for changes in windage, and because they don't require quite as good eyesight as the shooters age. And, of course, because folks no longer learn how to use the open sights really well.

But the open sights will still do a good job for those who have spent their years learning how to manage them.


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:
At Belleau Wood during WWI, the Marines, armed with the M1903 rifle with open sights, killed Germans who sat up straight behind their machine guns because they thought themselves beyond accurate rifle range. Shots were between 800-1000 yards. Their ability to shoot earned the Marines the title of Teufel Hunden, Hounds of Hell or Devil Dogs, a nickname still used with pride by Marines today. The Marines are credited with winning the battle, after both U.S. Army and French forces failed and retreated.

On a personal note, while in the Corps, I fired the M14 rifle accurately at 500 meters and 500 yards with open sights.


Not quite true, The Marines used limited Volley fire when troops were moving at the fring of the wood. 700 yards is the Marine corp. version. Basicly, if you were German and moved in the open, it became a bad day.

Qoute:
German commanders ordered an advance on Marigny and Lucy through Belleau Wood as part of a major offensive, in which other German troops would cross the Marne River. The commander of the Marine Brigade, Army Gen. James Harbord, countermanding a French order to dig trenches further to the rear, ordered the Marines to "hold where they stand". With bayonets, the Marines dug shallow fighting positions from which they could fight from the prone position. In the afternoon of 3 June, German infantry attacked the Marine positions through the grain fields with bayonets fixed. The Marines waited until the Germans were within 100 yd (91 m) before opening fire with deadly rifle fire which mowed down waves of German infantry and forced the survivors to retreat into the wood.[6]
Having suffered heavy casualties, the Germans dug in along a defensive line from Hill 204, just east of Vaux, to Le Thiolet on the Paris-Metz Highway and northward through Belleau Wood to Torcy.[7] After Marines were repeatedly urged to turn back by retreating French forces, Marine Captain Lloyd W. Williams of the 2nd Battalion, 5th Marines uttered the now-famous retort "Retreat? Hell, we just got here."[8] Williams' battalion commander, Major Frederic Wise, later claimed that he had said the famous words.[7]
On 4 June, Maj. Gen. Bundy, commanding the 2nd Division, took command of the American sector of the front. Over the next two days, the Marines repelled the continuous German assaults. The 167th French Division arrived, giving Bundy a chance to consolidate his 2,000 yd (1,800 m) of front. Bundy's 3rd brigade held the southern sector of the line, while the Marine Brigade held the north of the line from Triangle Farm.[7]
[edit]Attack on Hill 142
At 03:45 on 6 June, the Allies launched an attack on the German forces, who were preparing their own strike. The French 167th Division attacked to the left of the American line, while the Marines attacked Hill 142 to prevent flanking fire against the French. As part of the second phase, the 2nd Division would capture the ridge overlooking Torcy and Belleau Wood, as well as occupying Belleau Wood. However, the Marines failed to scout the woods. As a consequence, they missed a regiment of German infantry dug in, with a network of machine gun nests and artillery.[7]
At dawn, the Marine 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, commanded by Major Julius Turrill, was to attack Hill 142, but only two companies were in position. The Marines advanced in waves with bayonets fixed across an open wheat field that was swept with German machine gun and artillery fire, and many Marines were cut down.[9][10] Captain Crowther commanding the 67th Company was killed almost immediately. Captain Hamilton and the 49th Company fought from wood to wood, fighting the entrenched Germans and overrunning their objective by 6 yd (5.5 m). At this point, Hamilton had lost all five junior officers, while the 67th had only one commissioned officer alive. Hamilton reorganized the two companies, establishing strong points and a defensive line.[11]
In the German counter-attack, Gunnery Sergeant Ernest A. Janson, who was serving under the name Charles Hoffman, repelled an advance of 12 German soldiers, killing two with his bayonet before the others fled; for this action he became the first Marine to receive the Medal of Honor in World War I. Gunner Henry Hulbert was also cited for advancing through enemy fire during the counter-attack.[12]
The rest of the battalion now arrived and went into action. Turrill's flanks lay unprotected and the Marines were rapidly exhausting their ammunition. By the afternoon, however, the Marines had captured Hill 142, at a cost of nine officers and most of the 325 men of the battalion.[12]
[edit]Marines attack Belleau Wood


Location of U.S. Marine forces in Belleau Wood and surrounding areas, 6 June 1918.
At 17:00 on 6 June, the 3rd Battalion 5th Marines (3/5), commanded by Major Benjamin S. Berry, and the 3rd Battalion 6th Marines (3/6), commanded by Maj. Berton W. Sibley, on their right, advanced from the west into Belleau Wood as part of the second phase of the Allied offensive. Again, the Marines had to advance through a waist-high wheat field into murderous machine gun fire. One of the most famous quotations in Marine Corps legend came during the initial step-off for the battle when Gunnery Sergeant Dan Daly, a recipient of two Medals of Honor who had served in the Philippines, Santo Domingo, Haiti, Peking and Vera Cruz, prompted his men of the 73rd Machine Gun company forward with the words: "Come on, you sons of bitches, do you want to live forever?"[13]
The first waves of Marines, advancing in well-disciplined lines, were slaughtered; Major Berry was wounded in the forearm during the advance. On his right, the Marines of Major Sibley's 3/6 Battalion swept into the southern end of Belleau Wood and encountered heavy machine gun fire, sharpshooters and barbed wire. Marines and German infantrymen were soon engaged in heavy hand-to-hand fighting. The casualties sustained on this day were the highest in Marine Corps history to that time.[9] Some 31 officers and 1,056 men of the Marine brigade were casualties. However, the Marines now had a foothold in Belleau Wood.[14]
[edit]Fighting in Belleau Wood


Map showing location of Marine push to secure Belleau Wood, 25 June 1918
The battle was now deadlocked. At midnight on 7–8 June, a German attack was stopped cold and an American counter-attack in the morning of 8 June was similarly defeated. Sibley's battalion, having sustained nearly 400 casualties, was relieved by the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines. Major Shearer took over the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines for the wounded Berry.[15] On 9 June, an enormous American and French barrage devastated Belleau Wood, turning the formerly attractive hunting preserve into a jungle of shattered trees. The Germans counter-fired into Lucy and Bouresches and reorganized their defenses inside Belleau Wood.[15]
In the morning of 10 June, Maj. Hughes' 1st Battalion, 6th Marines, together with elements of the 6th Machine Gun Battalion attacked north into the wood. Although this attack initially seemed to be succeeding, it was also stopped by machine gun fire. The commander of the 6th Machine Gun Battalion, Major Cole, was mortally wounded. Captain Harlan Major, senior captain present with the battalion, took command. The Germans used great quantities of mustard gas.[16] Next, Wise's 2nd Battalion, 5th Marines was ordered to attack the woods from the west, while Hughes continued his advance from the south.[17]
At 04:00 on 11 June, Wise's men advanced through a thick morning mist towards Belleau Wood, supported by the 23rd and 77th Companies of the 6th Machine Gun Battalion,[16] and were cut to pieces by heavy fire. Platoons were isolated and destroyed by interlocked machine gun fire. It was discovered that the battalion had advanced in the wrong direction. Rather than moving northeast, they had moved directly across the wood's narrow waist. However, they smashed the German southern defensive lines. A German private, whose company had 30 men left out of 120, wrote "We have Americans opposite us who are terribly reckless fellows."[18]
Overall, the woods were attacked by the Marines a total of six times before they could successfully expel the Germans. They fought off parts of five divisions of Germans, often reduced to using only their bayonets or fists in hand-to-hand combat.
On 26 June, the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines, supported by two companies of the 4th Machine Gun Battalion and the 15th Company of the 6th Machine Gun Battalion, made an attack on Belleau Wood, which finally cleared that forest of the enemy.[16] On that day a report was sent out simply stating, "Woods now U.S. Marine Corps entirely,"[19] ending one of the bloodiest and most ferocious battles U.S. forces would fight in the war.
[edit]Aftermath



A recruiting poster by Charles B. Falls makes use of the "Teufel Hunden" nickname
U.S. forces suffered 9,777 casualties, included 1,811 killed.[1] Many are buried in the nearby Aisne-Marne American Cemetery. There is no clear information on the number of Germans killed, although 1,600 Germans were taken prisoner.[20]
After the battle, the French renamed the wood "Bois de la Brigade de Marine" ("Wood of the Marine Brigade") in honor of the Marines' tenacity. The French government also later awarded the 4th Brigade the Croix de guerre. Belleau Wood is allegedly also where the Marines got their nickname "Teufelshunde", roughly translated "Devil Dogs", because of the ferocity with which they attacked. An official German report classified the Marines as "vigorous, self-confident, and remarkable marksmen..."[21] General Pershing, Commander of the AEF, even said, "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle!" Pershing also said "the Battle of Belleau Wood was for the U.S. the biggest battle since Appomattox and the most considerable engagement American troops had ever had with a foreign enemy."[21]
 
Posts: 447 | Location: NH | Registered: 09 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Marine Rifle Qualification.

200 yds:
Standing, 10 rds slow fire (12 min), and 10 rds sitting rapid fire (60sec)

300 yds:
5 rds sitting and 5 rds kneeling (slow fire), and 10 rds prone (rapid fire)

600 yds:
10 rds prone, slow fire

Max score, 250
Min score to qualify, 190

190-210 = Marksman
211-220 = Sharpshooter
221+ = Expert

M14 with issue sights.

Don't know what the procedure is today, but when I was in BC in the Corps in '69 this was the standard. With the exception of 2 or 3 guys, every recruit in the platoon qualified. I qualified expert with a score of 232.
As AC has already pointed out, receiver sights work.
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by craigster:
Marine Rifle Qualification.

200 yds:
Standing, 10 rds slow fire (12 min), and 10 rds sitting rapid fire (60sec)

300 yds:
5 rds sitting and 5 rds kneeling (slow fire), and 10 rds prone (rapid fire)

600 yds:
10 rds prone, slow fire

Max score, 250
Min score to qualify, 190

190-210 = Marksman
211-220 = Sharpshooter
221+ = Expert

M14 with issue sights.

Don't know what the procedure is today, but when I was in BC in the Corps in '69 this was the standard. With the exception of 2 or 3 guys, every recruit in the platoon qualified. I qualified expert with a score of 232.
As AC has already pointed out, receiver sights work.



The last time I fired the Army qualification course (1955) the course of fire was the same as you posted above, and so were the qualification scores required.

There were a couple of differences...we were shooting the M-1 Garand, and the recruits who didn't qualify got to stay at the range with a DI until they did...if it took all week.

As an inspiration, they were threatened with "re-cycling" (repeating their 8 weeks of basic training) if they didn't qualify. I don't know if that ever happened, but I certainly heard with my own ears that threat being delivered to them.

I got lucky...drew a good rifle when mine was issued to me at the start of basic, and had already been a hunter and centerfire rifle shooter for 9 years. Anyway, I shot a 244, second highest in our Division that year (highest was a "re-up" about 30 years old; he shot a 246). I know that "Expert" badge certainly improved my standing with (and treatment from) the DIs, much to my relief.

But that was with the peep sight on the Garand. Some of the oldtimers in the Brit Army shot just as well with the open sights of the early Smellys. and their bullseyes were reputedly 2" smaller in diameter than ours at 1,000 yards.


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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