NM triggers on Armalite competition model?

20 July 2003, 15:41

Chris F

ColdBore,
Thanks for the enlightenment. It sounds like there's a divergence between Combat and Highpower shooting in the National Guard.

I have a question out to the captain of the Air Force Team on the minimum score for a leg in EIC matches. My suspicion is that it applies only at Wilson.

Am I correct in saying that your choice of "Close to Rack" in Civilian matches is your choice? Have you ever shot a Match Tuned AR (or M1 or M14) in a conventional Leg Match or at Perry? With what result?

You carry a Sharp Shooter rating right? Is that with your stock NG AR or with a match rifle?

The Guardsmen legging at Wilson and/or on the Combat Intern'l Team had trouble breaking 420 on the NMC even with match gear. In contrast, the Marines shoot stock M16A2's, M855, cloth jackets and no mats in the Division Matches. Put them on the Match 16's and they kick butt. I believe the skill sets are quite different.

Two of my USMC High Master friends shot rack A2's with M855 in a "fun match" against Civilians with race AR's, M1A's etc in a course replicating the USMC Division Match course. They both beat the Civilian with Race Gear anyway. Gear helps, but it's no substitute for good marksmanship skills (holdin' and squeezin' center).

27 July 2003, 15:34

Chris F

ColdBore,
My Air Force Team friend got back from the Interservice Matches and got back to me about the Leg Requirements you had mentioned.

He said the minimum point threshhold was instituted for matches where only "Guard" shooters were participating ie Wilson Matches to ensure a certain level of competency that is normally found in other branch or Civilian EIC's.

Maybe I can get him to elaborate further here.

[ 07-27-2003, 06:37: Message edited by: Chris F ]

28 July 2003, 01:07

Cold Bore

Well Chris, that sounds a little discriminatory. A "certain level of competency"? That's a slap. When we are tightly restricted in the weapons, ammo, and gear (or lack thereof) that we can use in competition, and civilians can shoot anything they please (within CMP guidelines)? Match barrels, float tubes, leather coats, handloads (different for each stage if you want to), etc, etc. The active duty teams are the same way. They are basically "semi-pros", who shoot for a living. They have rifles built for them, shoot handloads, and have full-time coaches.

Like I said in my email to you, if it's all the same, and the shooter is all that matters, why do you never see a stock weapon on the line at a civilian match, and nobody EVER fires military 55 grain ball, especially from the 600 yard line (except us).

Just another reason that I prefer Combat style shooting over High Power. It's truly man-vs-man, equipment concerns are not an issue.

28 July 2003, 13:05

Chris F

quote:
Well Chris, that sounds a little discriminatory. A "certain level of competency"? That's a slap. When we are tightly restricted in the weapons, ammo, and gear (or lack thereof) that we can use in competition, and civilians can shoot anything they please (within CMP guidelines)? Match barrels, float tubes, leather coats, handloads (different for each stage if you want to), etc, etc. The active duty teams are the same way. They are basically "semi-pros", who shoot for a living. They have rifles built for them, shoot handloads, and have full-time coaches.

Lets see if I can address your other comments one by one;

I only reported what was told to me.

Concerning Gear - My understanding remains that you are held to stock gear and ball ammo at the Wilson Matches only. I know of several Air Guardsmen that are shooting Match equipment in CMP and NRA Matches. Again - isn't shooting stock gear in those your choice?

"Semi-pro's"? The only Branch with a full-time team with an MOS remotely resembling the "pro's" comment is the Army and their AMU shooters. The Marines are all drawn from the Fleet through the CIAP (Competition in Arms Program) beginning with the Division Matches. Each Marine you meet at Perry has a "real" MOS and qualified to join the team on a temporary basis for the Summer. The intent is that the skills they learn in the process will be spread through their unit when they return. There are a few that are kept on for a 2 or 3 year rotation with the MTU, but they eventually rotate out to the Fleet at the conclusion. Rumor has it that Tippie as talented as he was, left the Corps for the AMU because he didn't want to go back to being a "grunt" in the fleet at the end of his stint.

The Navy and Air Force shooters basically shoot as they are able to get time away from their jobs. They generally receive support of some ammo and sometimes travel expenses.

Reserve and Guard? I've seen Guardsmen draw Match M14's, related gear and ammo as recently as last year. Reserve I'm told had match M16's built up for them.

The Air Force Team Shooter that gave me insight into the minimum score requirements is AF Special Forces and blows things up for a living and is recently back from somewhere hot and sandy.

Semi Pro's? With the exception of the AMU, not hardly.

Never seen stock weapons with 55gr FMJ's at a match? I have. I saw my Master class friends with their Match gear get whupped up on by some High Master Marines shooting stock A2's and M855 on the Division Match Course. John Feamster did a couple of years back with A1's, 55's and period gear to commemorate Veterans Day. My recollection is that he shot 450 something. Imagine what he could have done with the adjustable sights of an A2? He even wrote it up in PS Magazine if you subscribe.

Professionals?..only in their dedication to skills basic to their job.

Wasn't it more fun poking at M14Dan? [Big Grin]

See the smileys?

[ 07-28-2003, 04:11: Message edited by: Chris F ]