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Originally posted by Cold Bore:
Jay-

I'm just not a huge fan of two stage triggers.

Regardless of what he chooses, it's great to see a young shooter with as much enthusiasm as your son!!

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Originally posted by arkypete:
Orion 1
Gentlemen may I horn in here.
I've got an AR-10t,the Eagel Arms version. It's very accurate off the bench during load testing, but off hand it's a real bear with a trigger some where around 15 pounds. It's my understanding that the match triggers for the AR15 will work in this rifle also. Am I correct that these match triggers will work in my AR10?
Any help sure would be appreciated.
Jim

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Originally posted by cas:
Just one note about the boys in Georgia (ton80)... make sure they HAVE what your buying, before you send them any money. They have a bad habit of auctioning things that they're still wait to come in.

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Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
Go Air Force!

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Thanks!!

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Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
Well I was looking at Oly Arms Rifles and saw a something I liked.A M-4.Only 750$.Would that be a better deal than the Colt?
Thanks,Tyler.

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Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
The competition rifles are heavy(all are over 9 lbs).

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Originally posted by Chris F:
ColdBore, are you shooting on the USAF Team with my friend Bill W?

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Chris-

I'm actually Air Guard (activated for 24 months...).

I shoot for the state of TN at the W.P. Wilson matches each year, as well as state level matches shooting for my base. Made the All-Guard team a few years ago & was fortunate enough to travel OCONUS to shoot against active duty militaries from around the world.

My Distinguished Rifleman badge just showed up last month, after earning it last October. #295... (Yep, I'm bragging a little, that sucker took some work... )

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Originally posted by Chris F:
Congratulations Coldbore!

Would that be "Combat" Distinguished or National Match Course Distinguished?

All Guard "Combat" or "Highpower"?

We've got a couple of your All Guard "Combat" Teammates out here if that's the one. It seems that skill sets are quite different from the scores they're shooting for Highpower Rifle.

If it's the All Guard "Highpower" team, it looks like I'll be seeing you in September, when your team joins us for a couple of matches. Now we can shoot for those dollars you and Orion1 were talking about with M14dan! p.s. I prefer cash, so bring lots of it!

Redial, good luck in your chase! Savor the hunt - it was over all too quickly for me.

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Chris-

Combat shooting for me...

I was on the All-Guard Combat Shooting team in 99, went to Brisbane & was selected for South Africa until it was cancelled due to lack of funding (on our end).

You sound like you know a bit about the "system", so here's a few tidbits for ya...

Air Force shooters have to fire an arbitrary mininum in any Leg match, regardless of conditions, etc. I fired NMC leg matches where I would literally place in the top 10 shooters (not just top 10 percent) out of hundreds of shooters, but not meet the USAF minimum. Army guys shooting 50 points below me would be taking points (they have no set minimum). We had to fire rack grade M-16's with M193, issue 55 grain ball ammo. It's awful hard firing that stuff on the 600 yard berm. The minimums were set with match equipment in mind. It was really frustrating having that minimum. It basically robbed me of 28 points that went to Army guys instead. There were many matches where the match *winner* didn't fire the Air Force minimum score....

However, I now shoot more "civilian" matches, with "appropriate equipment".

My heart is still in Combat shooting though. I like the fact that it's basically man-vs-man, instead of an equipment contest. You can't outspend or outbuild the next guy when your weapons are all identical and your ammo is issued on the line. To me, it's more of a shooter-driven contest than an equipment race.

[ 07-19-2003, 23:42: Message edited by: Cold Bore ]

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My heart is still in Combat shooting though. I like the fact that it's basically man-vs-man, instead of an equipment contest. You can't outspend or outbuild the next guy when your weapons are all identical and your ammo is issued on the line. To me, it's more of a shooter-driven contest than an equipment race.

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Originally posted by Chris F:
ColdBore,

With friends in the various branches, I do know a little about the "system", but not everything. Your posts probably brings up more questions than it answers for me.

What's the Combat Leg Course like. What distances? What Targets?

What's the minimum Leg score? Does it apply to Combat and/or Highpower? I've shot with AF and Air Guard shooters, and this has never come into play with either in Highpower Leg matches. Might this be specific to the Wilson Matches only?

I've seen some examples of Combat Shooters (those with multiple "Combat" legs) trying to shoot Highpower leg matches and have been noticing a trend. To help me understand the relationship between the skills do you mind if I ask what kind of scores are you shooting on the National Match Course with true Match gear?

What does "the Badge" look like in comparison to the Air Force's Distinguished Rifleman award?

Can a shooter earn some points in Combat and some points in Highpower and combine them for the 30 points for a "badge"? I do recall that Army and Army Guard shooters could only earn 10pts in civilian leg matches - the rest had to come from "Higher level" matches. The AF in contrast could earn them all in civilian matches. But then that would be Mixing points" of another sort.

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My heart is still in Combat shooting though. I like the fact that it's basically man-vs-man, instead of an equipment contest. You can't outspend or outbuild the next guy when your weapons are all identical and your ammo is issued on the line. To me, it's more of a shooter-driven contest than an equipment race.

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That's an interesting comment. The origins of the EIC were very much in that vein - rifles AND ammo issued on the line. The first Legs I earned with were M14's and "issued" ammo. I closed out with an AR and handloads. My feelings is that the AR has levelled the playing field. A winning rifle is easily obtained - no tricks or armorer support needed. Ammo is cheap and easy to obtain as well - Military branches with access to the various lots of M118 or M852 did had the advantage of knowing their zero's before hand. In the end I believe it still comes down to who can hold 'em and shoot 'em the straightest. The gear is now more standard and obtainable now than ever in the last 50 or so years.

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Chris-

I'll try to answer your questions...

The Combat leg is Match 321. It starts at 300 yards on a Figure 11 (man target with scoring rings)(The V ring is 6", then the 5 ring, 4, and everything else is a 3). It is 18" wide and 42" high. You fire 6 shots slow fire. You figure at 300 yards, from the centerline to the edge is 3 minutes. Guess wrong on wind, and you are completely off paper. Then it's 8 shots at two Fig 11's in 30 seconds at 300 yards. Then it gets fun... Everybody gets up, and advances abreast (on order) toward the 200 yard line. At "about" 225 yards, the targets appear. You have 25 seconds to run up to the 200 yard berm, adopt the kneeling position, and fire 4 shots. Everybody then gets into the sitting position. You now have a Figure 11 and a Figure 12 target. (The Fig 12 is pretty much a "head" of an enemy soldier, 18" wide by 20" high). The targets are on "edge", and the guys in the pits randomly "face" one at a time, for 3 seconds per exposure, in a random order and at random time intervals (on call from the pit boss). You fire 8 shots there. You then shoot the Rapid Realignment stage. Again, you have a Fig 11 & a Fig 12. You get five 5-second exposures, during which you shoot each pair of targets once (10 shots total), prone. Then everyone gets up again and advances toward the 100 yard line. At "about" 125 (the line official is coordinating with the pits via radio), one Fig 11 (big man) and two Fig 12 (little men) appear. You again run up to the 100 yard line, and fire 6 shots (two per target), from the kneeling, all in 30 seconds. Then, you shoot "Snap" targets. A Fig 12 (little man) is on a stick and edged. You get 4 exposures of 3 seconds each, one shot per exposure, from the standing position. Then, everybody advances, on order, at a half step, with the rifle at the Alert position (45 degree angle). Between 100 and 50 yards, you will get 4 exposures of 4 seconds. You stop, shoot one shoot standing, drop down to kneeling, and fire one more (8 shots total). Then from 50 into 25 yards, you get three exposures of 2 seconds each. You fire two shots each exposure (6 total). To go back to the beginning, you are issued 60 rounds to start. You can load any way you want, and you reload on your own as you move through the match. There are no breaks for pit swaps. You need to remember to reload, make sight adjustments, etc, on your own and on the move. LOTS of fun.

It's a 300 point match. Air Guard shooters need a 245 minimum to get points (I'm usually in the 270's-low 280's). That one's not a problem. It's the Bullseye leg that is hard to hang. I "believe" our minimum is 445 on the 500 point course. It gets real tricky at 600 yards...

It's Wilson Matches AND state level competitions too. If you are shooting with Air Force guys in NMC legs, I doubt they are shooting rack grade/issue stuff. We are required to though at the WPW's, so it's a Catch-22.

As for my civilian scores, I shoot Expert/low Master. What trends do you see? I know that myself, I shoot real fast. It drives guys around me crazy!

My "badge" is THE Distinguished badge for the Air Force. There is no distinction between the two. I'll send you a pic tomorrow, it's out at the base right now (I need to go in tomorrow anyway ). Basically, it's just like yours, but it hangs from a bar with Air Force on it.

We can earn points in Combat & NMC "in theory", but like I said, with our minimum when shoot rack grade/issue, it's awful hard.

Agreed on the part about getting an AR-15 to shoot easily. However, it is still a money/equipment game, to a point. It would be tough going up against the guy with a John Holliger rifle, or a Kreiger barrelled upper with a float tube, and a Jewell trigger, shooting handloads while wearing a leather coat & glove, when you're holding a stock Wilson barrelled, non-tubed, nylon slinged, factory rifle, firing Winchester white box, in your sweatshirt.