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NM triggers on Armalite competition model?
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Hello, My son wants a Armalite M-15A2 rifle, I told him he should get the Competition model with the freefloated match barrel and NM trigger, my question is, I know which model is the best for the money, but can anyone elaborate on why he should get the comp model instead?, geez, let me think, better trigger, more accuracy, anything else? What is the NM trigger like as far as ease of adjustment and quality of feel, how low can it be adjusted? What's a good street price for one? Lot of questions I know, Thanks, Jay
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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National Match triggers on AR-15s are tuned to deliver right at 4.5 lbs total let-off weight (1st + 2nd stage), in compliance with CMP and NRA highpower competition rules. In addition, they are as creep-free as an AR-15 trigger can be (which is to say damn good). In the opinion of John Holliger (2002 civilian service rifle champion and one of he best AR-15 smiths in the business) the best factory NM trigger is made by Rock River Arms.

Most Armalite NM rifles I've seen go for north of $1200. A Rock River NM will set you back around $950 and it is ready to win right out of the box.

[ 07-10-2003, 03:38: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]
 
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002Reply With Quote
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ORION1, I told my son you'd be the first one to reply, which I was hoping for, So I take it you think my son should get the RR, checked out the website, I see the retail is $1200, probably could get that for $1000, If one were to put a scope on that rifle and check for ultimate accuracy with the right charge of H335 and a 52AMAX, what kind of accuracy are we looking at? Jay
 
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Jay, if you want a Rock River DCM rifle, this guy in Georgia has them in stock at less than $1000.
RRA DCM at Gunbroker.com

This guy told me he orders most of his DCM rifles with a .030 rear apperture. It turned out to be too small for my eyes (didn't let enough light in), so I went with a .040 after I bought the rifle.

Rock River advertises 3/4 MOA for their DCM rifles. I honestly don't know what the rifle will do with a scope on it, as I have never tried. Using the .040 aperture and Black Hills match ammo loaded with Hornady 75 gr HPBT match bullets (not AMAX), I have been able to achieve between .6 to .7 MOA at 100 yards for five shots.

[ 07-10-2003, 07:20: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]
 
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Gentlemen, you got my attention because I've been thinking about an Armalite myself.

It is nice to hear something good on the Rock River rifle, as I missed out on getting the DCM Bushmaster through the local association.

In the past few years,I've heard some complaints about the Bushmaster trigger. They only "seem" to last a few years, and then are replaced with a Jewell, or Milazzo-Krieger trigger, if available.

Small potatoes really, but good news is always welcome.

packrat
 
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Jay, one last thing I left unaswered: factory AR-15 National Match triggers are not user adjustable (you just can't turn a screw). Some of the aftermarket triggers may be, but I don't know how they work.
 
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Jay-

I've been talking to your son a lot by email lately. I enjoy all of his questions... he wants to know everything!

He needs to decide what his intentions are before he (you) buys. I'm not sure that he's committed to a certain "style" yet.

My general recommendations to him were a full sized A2, but he bounces back to the M4 now & then.

One of the best deals out there right now is the Bushmaster CMP rifle.

Once he decides on an initial rifle, then it's a simple matter to buy more uppers & swap them out.

A great trigger, especially for the money, is the JP Enterprises. I have a JP in one rifle, and a Jewell in another, and believe it or not, I prefer the JP. (I'm just not a huge fan of two stage triggers...).

Regardless of what he chooses, it's great to see a young shooter with as much enthusiasm as your son!! [Smile]
 
Posts: 2629 | Registered: 21 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Bore:
Jay-

I'm just not a huge fan of two stage triggers.

Regardless of what he chooses, it's great to see a young shooter with as much enthusiasm as your son!! [Smile]

Now that I have tried them, properly tuned two-stage triggers are (to me) the cat's ass for target shooting.

That's coming from me, owning rifles with most excellent factory single-stage triggers (CZ, Sako, and Howa).

Jay, I'm also glad your son is really into shooting. Where do you live? Perhaps Cold Bore or I can steer you guys to a club that is into NRA highpower matches.
 
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Orion 1
Gentlemen may I horn in here.
I've got an AR-10t,the Eagel Arms version. It's very accurate off the bench during load testing, but off hand it's a real bear with a trigger some where around 15 pounds. It's my understanding that the match triggers for the AR15 will work in this rifle also. Am I correct that these match triggers will work in my AR10?
Any help sure would be appreciated.
Jim
 
Posts: 6173 | Location: Richmond, Virginia | Registered: 17 September 2000Reply With Quote
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Gentlemen, I happen to love 2 stage triggers ever since I got my Exemplar and 54.18MS Anschutz silhouette rifle, which I no longer have, at any rate, my son doesn't like 2 stage, but I think I can persuade him to like them If I get a rifle with one, maybe I'll have him shoot the exemplar some more, and he'll grow to like them again, I'm from Wausau, WI. area, It would be nice to know If there's any matches around here. Gary, I understand your in the Air Force, I was in for 11yrs., 2.5yrs in Bitburg and 8 at Nellis Thanks, Jay
 
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quote:
Originally posted by arkypete:
Orion 1
Gentlemen may I horn in here.
I've got an AR-10t,the Eagel Arms version. It's very accurate off the bench during load testing, but off hand it's a real bear with a trigger some where around 15 pounds. It's my understanding that the match triggers for the AR15 will work in this rifle also. Am I correct that these match triggers will work in my AR10?
Any help sure would be appreciated.
Jim

Jim, I think an AR-15 trigger will work, but I'm not sure. I would ask Armalite. If their answer is too vauge, I would ask Scott Medesha, on of the premier builders of NRA Match rifles based on the AR-10.
web page

[ 07-12-2003, 07:13: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]
 
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Just one note about the boys in Georgia (ton80)... make sure they HAVE what your buying, before you send them any money. They have a bad habit of auctioning things that they're still wait to come in.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by cas:
Just one note about the boys in Georgia (ton80)... make sure they HAVE what your buying, before you send them any money. They have a bad habit of auctioning things that they're still wait to come in.

True. In fact, I called while I had their auction for a RRN NM AR-15 open on the 'puter. They guy told me that I could order offline for the same price, so we did the deal over the phone.

It bears repeating, ASK if what's on the internet IS in stock. Not just from The Gun Shop, but from anyone selling over the internet.
 
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Jay,
It sounds like what you are really looking for is a RR Varminter or an Armalite M15T. Both are flat tops for easy scope mounting, both come with 2-stage match triggers. Both have floated barrels. If you don't like the triggers as they come from the factory, send them off to John Holliger for tuning.

BTW, the AR10 uses AR15 fire control parts. I just dropped a Holliger RR into mine.

ArkyPete,
Send that trigger to John. If it's a 2 stage Armalite match trigger, he will make it sweet.
 
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Hi,this is Tyler, Jay's son.I'm not looking for a varmint rifle.I don't want a scope on it.I shot a M-1 Garand and did good with the peep sights.I have my eyes on the Colt match M-4.Any opinions on the accuracy/quality/value of this rifle.Otherwise I want the AArmalite M-15A2.I also don't really like 2-stage triggers.My dad wants me to get a Rock River but I said no.I do really like Short barrels and am saving up money for the Colt already.I just need more info on Ar-15s.I want nothing that has to have a scope to see what i'm shooting at.
Thanks,Tyler.
 
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Tyler-

I thought that you had settled on an A2 version. And you're paying extra money for the Colt name, when Rock River, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc all make better rifles at less cost.

The "match M4" is a real contradiction. You can't shoot it in a Service Rifle match, so you'll have to shoot it in the Match Rifle category. An M4 doesn't stand a chance against a match rifle. I realize that you may not be planning to compete with it, but the point is still the same.

I'd go with your dad's recommendation on the Rock River, or your backup choice, the Armalite A2.

Think hard, decide what you *really* want, and tell Dad to write that check. [Wink]
 
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Gary, He don't know what he wants, kinda like a woman, no offence ladys out there, goes back and forth, then he says, If you don't get me the AR, get me a Benelli M4 or Turkey gun, Grandpa's old 870 isn't good enough, he shot that on Sunday along with some fella's Garand, got the whole stripper within the 7 ring, not bad sonny boy. Hey, when I was a year older than him(14), I saw a Colt catalog, and told my friend, there's my first Handgun.......Colt Python, 18 months later, broke open the piggy bank, Pa, lets go to Bill's House of Guns, think I got enough here, allllrighty then. He'll get what I get him, and he'll be happier than pig in slop. [Big Grin] Go Air Force! Jay
 
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Yep, I wish *I* was still in that position where I could get my dad to foot the bill.

Unfortunately (for me), just last week, I bought *him* one.... [Razz]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
Go Air Force!

Thanks!! [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
 
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Tyler, did you like the trigger on the Garand? That is a 2-stage. The nice thing about 2-stage triggers is that you can have a heavy trigger, but it feels real light because all the weight is in the take-up. A 5lb 2-stage might feel like 1lb because 4 of it may be in the 1st stage. You can't get a 1lb trigger on an automatic. About the lowest I've seen without misfires in an AR is a 3.5lb single stage.
Remember, those NM rifles are heavier than normal rifles. On the other hand, toting around a 12lb rifle will really strengthen the boy up. When I was his age, I carried a Sheridan Blue Streak which I had to put between my legs to pump. I got so strong shooting that thing, I held the school record for chin-ups!
Nothing like a rifle for building a solid body. Just ask Jeff Cooper.
 
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The thing is the rifles I want to get dont have 2-stage triggers(good for me).They are the Colt Match M-4 and the Armalite M-15A2.Both are 1000+ dollars.both have a lifetime warranty and are both good size/weight for me(I like light guns).I'm not sure if I want to shoot Competition.The competition rifles are heavy(all are over 9 lbs).I don't want to set a world record for accuracy.I wanna shoot for fun but still have decent accuracy,maybe 1 or 2 inches at 100 yds.If anyone has anything to add i'll gladly read it.
Thanks,Tyler.
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Then either of those AR15s will do. Except perhaps for the Colt M4, you can certainly get one for less than $1,000.
 
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Well I was looking at Oly Arms Rifles and saw a something I liked.A M-4.Only 750$.Would that be a better deal than the Colt?
Thanks,Tyler.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
Well I was looking at Oly Arms Rifles and saw a something I liked.A M-4.Only 750$.Would that be a better deal than the Colt?
Thanks,Tyler.

No, it would be an even worse deal. Stick to Rock River, Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt, in that order.
 
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I've talked to alot of people.Some say Oly is crap, some say it is good.I asked if it would be a worse deal and the answer was yes.What about the Armalite M-4 type rifle?Is that good?
Thanks,Tyler.
 
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With all due respect to Orion, I disagree on the OlyArms. I've got one & like it fine, for what it's meant for. I use it for practice, and a base for different uppers. I have a single stage JP Enterprises trigger in it, for when I don't want to shoot the Jewell (which is often). I'd rather have an Oly than a Colt, especially at the price difference. To me, Colt is not nearly what they "used" to be, and are high priced for a mediocre rifle.

For what Tyler wants to do, an Oly would be fine.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
The competition rifles are heavy(all are over 9 lbs).

Actually, a "base" competition rifle shouldn't be much different from a "standard" A2. Where they get heavy is when you start sticking lead all over them. (One of mine weighs 16 pounds...). I think that the Bushmaster CMP rifle comes with lead (either cuffs or buttstock wedge). You can always lighten up the rifle by removing the lead.
 
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Thank you Gary.I'll look at that Oly again.I'll save money but Me and my Dad might go to Minnisota to go to DPMS factory thing.I'll see what the M-4 feels like and if its too short than Armalires standard A2 is for me.
Thanks,Tyler.
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Jay,
I thought I'd share my thoughts and experiences.

Armalite quality has been spotty as of late. Custom smiths I know have not had nice things to say about the quality of their parts. A pity since Mark Westrom certainly has tried hard and supported the sport I play - Highpower Rifle. If you are a military team shooter, you may have the opportunity to purchase at a discounted price.

Bushmaster makes a decent CMP Rifle, but their trigger leaves a lot to desire. It's a decent deal from the CMP, but when the cost of a replacement trigger is added, it becomes less attractive.

Rock River had the best deal going on CMP Rifles - purchasing their NM Upper and Lower SEPARATELY from a friendly dealer would net you a price comparable to the Bushmaster CMP deal without having to replace the trigger. Availability has been spotty of late and quality of recent specimens I've seen inconsistent as well.

In our sport most competitors generally stay away from Oly.

The other part of your question regarded triggers. My personal feeling is that Match single stage triggers are not a good thing on a Semi-Auto. To achieve a good feel, you are playing with engagement and reducing engagement to improve feel and reduce creep has consequences on your safety margin. Go too far and you're dealing with an unsafe rifle. All the doubling I've seen with AR's have been with single stage triggers.

There are a multitude of two stage triggers out there. Four are adjustable to my knowlege. The Jewell, Compass Lake/Bushmaster, Milazzo, and the newer Knights. Westrom told me Armalite took out the adjustment screw because too many owners didn't know what they were doing and screwed up their triggers - and so it can be said for most adjustable triggers.

My recommendation for a good value in a two stage trigger is purchase a Rock River NM and have an experienced AR Smith like John Holliger do a tune job to your spec. He can adjust weight and 1st/2nd stage bias to your spec. Shopping around can get you a RRA Trigger for about 90bucks plus 25 or 30 bucks for a tune job by Holliger. Or you can buy one already tuned for about 115-120. Prepare to be impressed.

ColdBore, are you shooting on the USAF Team with my friend Bill W?

[ 07-17-2003, 07:14: Message edited by: Chris F ]
 
Posts: 192 | Location: USA | Registered: 29 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Thinking out loud, Tyler, your getting the RR NM and your going to like it, it's more accurate and it's got a good trigger, but Dad, I don't like two stage triggers, I'm saving my money and I'll get what I want, Allllrighty then, that'll save me some money. [Big Grin] Jay
 
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Jay,
I read your initial question a little more closely;
The NM Armalite in addition to what the other's have posted, will also get you Match Sights on a non-removable carry handle. Great if you're shooting in Service Rifle Competition...but perhaps not the best for general plinking if your plans include mounting a scope.

It also get's you a 20" barrel with a 8 twist. Again, great for Service Rifle Competition shooting single loaded 80gr bullets to 600 yards, but probably shorter and more twisty than what I'd get for plinking at shorter ranges with 52gr, 55gr etc.

Orion1, Holliger says the RRA trigger is the best "value" in a trigger. He'll tell you the MKII or Knight are as good or better (but next to impossible to get and much more expensive) - I've sold him both.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris F:
ColdBore, are you shooting on the USAF Team with my friend Bill W?

Chris-

I'm actually Air Guard (activated for 24 months...).

I shoot for the state of TN at the W.P. Wilson matches each year, as well as state level matches shooting for my base. Made the All-Guard team a few years ago & was fortunate enough to travel OCONUS to shoot against active duty militaries from around the world.

My Distinguished Rifleman badge just showed up last month, after earning it last October. #295... (Yep, I'm bragging a little, that sucker took some work... [Big Grin] )
 
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Hi,I think I've settled a decision.Armalite M-15A2.I held a Bushmaster 20" barreled rifle and it was perfect length,weight and feel.So does anybody have anything bad to say about the rifle?I want to know as muck about it as possible.I might change my mind and get the Armalite Competition if it had a single stage trigger.
Thanks,Tyler.
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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I just found another reason not to get a RR.
1.The competition is 10 lbs,2-stage trigger.
2.Even the standard id 8.8 lbs and also has a 2-stage trigger.
If you guys remember ,I said I don't like 2-stage triggers,or heavy guns.Armalite is for me plus I get a youth shooters discount(from 1000+$ down to 750$).Thought I'd let ya know.
Thanks,Tyler.
 
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Cold Bore! Congratulations, guy! Legging out is a BIG deal. They don't just give away gold badges, now do they?

FWIW, I got "First Leather" two weeks ago at my first ballgun match in 5+ years. The second badge ain't gonna be any easier than the first! I hope my eyesight holds out for a while yet..... [Roll Eyes]

Congrats again sir!

Redial
 
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Congratulations Coldbore!

Would that be "Combat" Distinguished or National Match Course Distinguished?

All Guard "Combat" or "Highpower"?

We've got a couple of your All Guard "Combat" Teammates out here if that's the one. It seems that skill sets are quite different from the scores they're shooting for Highpower Rifle.

If it's the All Guard "Highpower" team, it looks like I'll be seeing you in September, when your team joins us for a couple of matches. Now we can shoot for those dollars you and Orion1 were talking about with M14dan! p.s. I prefer cash, so bring lots of it! [Big Grin]

Redial, good luck in your chase! Savor the hunt - it was over all too quickly for me.

 -

[ 07-19-2003, 11:45: Message edited by: Chris F ]
 
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Tyler,
The Armalite NM that your dad was initially asking about will also be a heavy rifle and comes with a 2 stage triggers. If you want a lightweight rifle, you'd best look for a manufacturer offering a GI Contour barrel.

Most makers are offering HBAR's which will push 8 to 9 lbs. The DCM/CMP Rifles typically use an even heavier contour. That holds true for Armalite as well.

Here's some reading for you;
NM BushMaster
Armalite

Good luck in finding something that fits your wants.

[ 07-19-2003, 12:07: Message edited by: Chris F ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris F:
Congratulations Coldbore!

Would that be "Combat" Distinguished or National Match Course Distinguished?

All Guard "Combat" or "Highpower"?

We've got a couple of your All Guard "Combat" Teammates out here if that's the one. It seems that skill sets are quite different from the scores they're shooting for Highpower Rifle.

If it's the All Guard "Highpower" team, it looks like I'll be seeing you in September, when your team joins us for a couple of matches. Now we can shoot for those dollars you and Orion1 were talking about with M14dan! p.s. I prefer cash, so bring lots of it! [Big Grin]

Redial, good luck in your chase! Savor the hunt - it was over all too quickly for me.

Chris-

Combat shooting for me...

I was on the All-Guard Combat Shooting team in 99, went to Brisbane & was selected for South Africa until it was cancelled due to lack of funding (on our end).

You sound like you know a bit about the "system", so here's a few tidbits for ya...

Air Force shooters have to fire an arbitrary mininum in any Leg match, regardless of conditions, etc. I fired NMC leg matches where I would literally place in the top 10 shooters (not just top 10 percent) out of hundreds of shooters, but not meet the USAF minimum. Army guys shooting 50 points below me would be taking points (they have no set minimum). We had to fire rack grade M-16's with M193, issue 55 grain ball ammo. It's awful hard firing that stuff on the 600 yard berm. The minimums were set with match equipment in mind. It was really frustrating having that minimum. It basically robbed me of 28 points that went to Army guys instead. There were many matches where the match *winner* didn't fire the Air Force minimum score....

However, I now shoot more "civilian" matches, with "appropriate equipment". [Smile]

My heart is still in Combat shooting though. I like the fact that it's basically man-vs-man, instead of an equipment contest. You can't outspend or outbuild the next guy when your weapons are all identical and your ammo is issued on the line. To me, it's more of a shooter-driven contest than an equipment race.

[ 07-19-2003, 23:42: Message edited by: Cold Bore ]
 
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ColdBore,

With friends in the various branches, I do know a little about the "system", but not everything. Your posts probably brings up more questions than it answers for me.

What's the Combat Leg Course like. What distances? What Targets?

What's the minimum Leg score? Does it apply to Combat and/or Highpower? I've shot with AF and Air Guard shooters, and this has never come into play with either in Highpower Leg matches. Might this be specific to the Wilson Matches only?

I've seen some examples of Combat Shooters (those with multiple "Combat" legs) trying to shoot Highpower leg matches and have been noticing a trend. To help me understand the relationship between the skills do you mind if I ask what kind of scores are you shooting on the National Match Course with true Match gear?

What does "the Badge" look like in comparison to the Air Force's Distinguished Rifleman award?

Can a shooter earn some points in Combat and some points in Highpower and combine them for the 30 points for a "badge"? I do recall that Army and Army Guard shooters could only earn 10pts in civilian leg matches - the rest had to come from "Higher level" matches. The AF in contrast could earn them all in civilian matches. But then that would be Mixing points" of another sort.

quote:
My heart is still in Combat shooting though. I like the fact that it's basically man-vs-man, instead of an equipment contest. You can't outspend or outbuild the next guy when your weapons are all identical and your ammo is issued on the line. To me, it's more of a shooter-driven contest than an equipment race.
That's an interesting comment. The origins of the EIC were very much in that vein - rifles AND ammo issued on the line. The first Legs I earned with were M14's and "issued" ammo. I closed out with an AR and handloads. My feelings is that the AR has levelled the playing field. A winning rifle is easily obtained - no tricks or armorer support needed. Ammo is cheap and easy to obtain as well - Military branches with access to the various lots of M118 or M852 did had the advantage of knowing their zero's before hand. In the end I believe it still comes down to who can hold 'em and shoot 'em the straightest. The gear is now more standard and obtainable now than ever in the last 50 or so years.

[ 07-20-2003, 04:19: Message edited by: Chris F ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris F:
ColdBore,

With friends in the various branches, I do know a little about the "system", but not everything. Your posts probably brings up more questions than it answers for me.

What's the Combat Leg Course like. What distances? What Targets?

What's the minimum Leg score? Does it apply to Combat and/or Highpower? I've shot with AF and Air Guard shooters, and this has never come into play with either in Highpower Leg matches. Might this be specific to the Wilson Matches only?

I've seen some examples of Combat Shooters (those with multiple "Combat" legs) trying to shoot Highpower leg matches and have been noticing a trend. To help me understand the relationship between the skills do you mind if I ask what kind of scores are you shooting on the National Match Course with true Match gear?

What does "the Badge" look like in comparison to the Air Force's Distinguished Rifleman award?

Can a shooter earn some points in Combat and some points in Highpower and combine them for the 30 points for a "badge"? I do recall that Army and Army Guard shooters could only earn 10pts in civilian leg matches - the rest had to come from "Higher level" matches. The AF in contrast could earn them all in civilian matches. But then that would be Mixing points" of another sort.

quote:
My heart is still in Combat shooting though. I like the fact that it's basically man-vs-man, instead of an equipment contest. You can't outspend or outbuild the next guy when your weapons are all identical and your ammo is issued on the line. To me, it's more of a shooter-driven contest than an equipment race.
That's an interesting comment. The origins of the EIC were very much in that vein - rifles AND ammo issued on the line. The first Legs I earned with were M14's and "issued" ammo. I closed out with an AR and handloads. My feelings is that the AR has levelled the playing field. A winning rifle is easily obtained - no tricks or armorer support needed. Ammo is cheap and easy to obtain as well - Military branches with access to the various lots of M118 or M852 did had the advantage of knowing their zero's before hand. In the end I believe it still comes down to who can hold 'em and shoot 'em the straightest. The gear is now more standard and obtainable now than ever in the last 50 or so years.
Chris-

I'll try to answer your questions...

The Combat leg is Match 321. It starts at 300 yards on a Figure 11 (man target with scoring rings)(The V ring is 6", then the 5 ring, 4, and everything else is a 3). It is 18" wide and 42" high. You fire 6 shots slow fire. You figure at 300 yards, from the centerline to the edge is 3 minutes. Guess wrong on wind, and you are completely off paper. [Eek!] Then it's 8 shots at two Fig 11's in 30 seconds at 300 yards. Then it gets fun... [Wink] Everybody gets up, and advances abreast (on order) toward the 200 yard line. At "about" 225 yards, the targets appear. You have 25 seconds to run up to the 200 yard berm, adopt the kneeling position, and fire 4 shots. Everybody then gets into the sitting position. You now have a Figure 11 and a Figure 12 target. (The Fig 12 is pretty much a "head" of an enemy soldier, 18" wide by 20" high). The targets are on "edge", and the guys in the pits randomly "face" one at a time, for 3 seconds per exposure, in a random order and at random time intervals (on call from the pit boss). You fire 8 shots there. You then shoot the Rapid Realignment stage. Again, you have a Fig 11 & a Fig 12. You get five 5-second exposures, during which you shoot each pair of targets once (10 shots total), prone. Then everyone gets up again and advances toward the 100 yard line. At "about" 125 (the line official is coordinating with the pits via radio), one Fig 11 (big man) and two Fig 12 (little men) appear. You again run up to the 100 yard line, and fire 6 shots (two per target), from the kneeling, all in 30 seconds. Then, you shoot "Snap" targets. A Fig 12 (little man) is on a stick and edged. You get 4 exposures of 3 seconds each, one shot per exposure, from the standing position. Then, everybody advances, on order, at a half step, with the rifle at the Alert position (45 degree angle). Between 100 and 50 yards, you will get 4 exposures of 4 seconds. You stop, shoot one shoot standing, drop down to kneeling, and fire one more (8 shots total). Then from 50 into 25 yards, you get three exposures of 2 seconds each. You fire two shots each exposure (6 total). To go back to the beginning, you are issued 60 rounds to start. You can load any way you want, and you reload on your own as you move through the match. There are no breaks for pit swaps. You need to remember to reload, make sight adjustments, etc, on your own and on the move. LOTS of fun.

It's a 300 point match. Air Guard shooters need a 245 minimum to get points (I'm usually in the 270's-low 280's). That one's not a problem. It's the Bullseye leg that is hard to hang. I "believe" our minimum is 445 on the 500 point course. It gets real tricky at 600 yards...

It's Wilson Matches AND state level competitions too. If you are shooting with Air Force guys in NMC legs, I doubt they are shooting rack grade/issue stuff. We are required to though at the WPW's, so it's a Catch-22.

As for my civilian scores, I shoot Expert/low Master. What trends do you see? I know that myself, I shoot real fast. It drives guys around me crazy! [Razz]

My "badge" is THE Distinguished badge for the Air Force. There is no distinction between the two. I'll send you a pic tomorrow, it's out at the base right now (I need to go in tomorrow anyway [Frown] ). Basically, it's just like yours, but it hangs from a bar with Air Force on it.

We can earn points in Combat & NMC "in theory", but like I said, with our minimum when shoot rack grade/issue, it's awful hard.

Agreed on the part about getting an AR-15 to shoot easily. However, it is still a money/equipment game, to a point. It would be tough going up against the guy with a John Holliger rifle, or a Kreiger barrelled upper with a float tube, and a Jewell trigger, shooting handloads while wearing a leather coat & glove, when you're holding a stock Wilson barrelled, non-tubed, nylon slinged, factory rifle, firing Winchester white box, in your sweatshirt. [Eek!]
 
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