Okay, a question for the learned. I recently came into possession of a pair of Browning HP's, very old and still very functional! Both of these pieces have four digit serial numbers, both less than 5,000. I was told by an 'expert' shortly after I bought them that these were part of a lot of 5000 the French ordered from FN and then would not take delivery of them. Seems the guns ended up in China and eventually back in the US.
Both of these guns have the big {12 RD] mags and are the "T' models with the slot cut for a shoulder stock. They do not have waffenamps, both have all-matching S/N's and no where do they say 'Browning.' I have seen and owned a lot of HP's but never any quite like these. Any info on these pieces?

The GP/HP was designed in response to a French military requirement for a new service pistol after WW1. Many designs were tested between 1924 and 1931 but were not satisfying because the most interesting features of the Browning patents could not be used as they still belonged to Colt.

The French then studied the possibility after 1931 to adopt the FN GP (Browning HP for you Merkins)in 7.65 mm long not in 9mm. They never ordered any 9mm HP.

The first 10 000 pistols were delivered to the Belgian Army.


Pictures would help. Looks to me like you may have either a Canadian made Inglis as delivered to China or a Chinese copy.
Any acceptance or proof mark?

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
The GP/HP was designed in response to a French military requirement for a new service pistol after WW1. Many designs were tested between 1924 and 1931 but were not satisfying because the most interesting features of the Browning patents could not be used as they still belonged to Colt.

The French then studied the possibility after 1931 to adopt the FN GP (Browning HP for you Merkins)in 7.65 mm long not in 9mm. They never ordered any 9mm HP.

The first 10 000 pistols were delivered to the Belgian Army.


Pictures would help. Looks to me like you may have either a Canadian made Inglis as delivered to China or a Chinese copy.
Any acceptance or proof mark?

They were definitely made in Belguim - no chance yet for any photos, etc. I'll try and put something together and post them back up. Knowing of the state of affairs re France, etc I dould not imagine they were turned down but who knows. I did note that the grips are a black plastic of some type with a large star molded in.

The GP or Grand Puissance wasn't really a "Browning" design in that in its final incarnation it was the design of Duidon Saive.

It's not a NAACO Brigadier that you have there? Does it have the Liege Proof Marks on it?

It may otherwise have two possibilities:

A "lunch box" guntaken out of the factory before the stage when the Browning Marks were impressed, or, more likely, a heavily pitted gun externally that has been put on a milling machine and a fine external layer of metal removed to get rid of the pitting. This also removing the Browning Marks but not the serial numbers which are/were more deeply stamped or re-stamped after the milling work had been done.

I have seen a couple of Webley revolvers where this was done to remove pitting. The flat nature of the Webley lending itself to this "cleaning up" by milling.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
The GP or Grand Puissance wasn't really a "Browning" design in that in its final incarnation it was the design of Duidon Saive.

It's not a NAACO Brigadier that you have there? Does it have the Liege Proof Marks on it?

It may otherwise have two possibilities:

A "lunch box" guntaken out of the factory before the stage when the Browning Marks were impressed, or, more likely, a heavily pitted gun externally that has been put on a milling machine and a fine external layer of metal removed to get rid of the pitting. This also removing the Browning Marks but not the serial numbers which are/were more deeply stamped or re-stamped after the milling work had been done.

I have seen a couple of Webley revolvers where this was done to remove pitting. The flat nature of the Webley lending itself to this "cleaning up" by milling.

Perhaps I was not clear in my first post but I have TWO of these guns - identical except for S/N's. I was first attracted to them because they were HiPowers, which I love, and next because I have never seen any like them. And when the price was quoted I not only bought both of them but asked if there were anymore to be had!
I'll try and get the pictures up ASAP!

Okay, the camera I have here will not take a decent picture, I am about half sick with the flu, and I only feel up to digging out one of the Browning's.
This piece is marked on the right side:
S/N on the slide, 76XX
S/N on the frame below the slide, 76XX
Crown circle FN mark on th barrel at the port, along with either 4 or 5 proofs.
Tangent rear sight graduated to 500 Meters.
L/H side of receiver:
Top line :"Fabrique National D'Armes de Guerre"
Next line: "Herstal, Belgique"
Third line: "Browning's Patent Depose" plus five proof marks.
On the frame below the slide: 5 more proofs.
So, I was wrong - I thought both of them had S/N's below 5000 but this one is in the 7000 range - my bad!
Again, will try and get more detail together as I feel better and borrow my daughter's camera - it is better than mine. Just got another nose bleed so I'm out of here for now.

No they are correct and as they should be. They should say exactly what they do say. I think that "only in America" will the things say Browning Arms or whatever on them.

Certainly in Europe this gun is relatively common in the configuration and marked as you describe and not very popular. Here we prefer the fixed sight version.

Line or Item 50 here is one. 650 Euros is about US $ 700 I think.

http://www.armes-cornet.com/catalogues_defense.htm

Fabrique Nationale is the correct name for what later became known as "Browning" or "FN Browning". You pistol as described is marked correctly.

I was thinking when you said they did not say Browning on them that you menat the slide was bare of any markings.

Is there a thumb recess around the are where the takedown lever "stud" appears?

They will have the "short" extractor I think?

This site has miscellaneous info. But no serial dates pre-1954:

http://forum.m1911.org/archive/index.php/f-86.html

There is a website where you can check Belgian Proof Marks for date. Try looking about four posts down in this topic:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=43594

What do you think makes these pistols unusual, or unique? Inglis, in Canada, also made the HP, during the war years and some of these were exported to China, but they are marked in chinese characters and Inglis Canada I don't see anything unusual in your description, according to my Handguns of the World.

Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:
Okay, a question for the learned. I recently came into possession of a pair of Browning HP's, very old and still very functional! Both of these pieces have four digit serial numbers, both less than 5,000. I was told by an 'expert' shortly after I bought them that these were part of a lot of 5000 the French ordered from FN and then would not take delivery of them. Seems the guns ended up in China and eventually back in the US.
Both of these guns have the big {12 RD] mags and are the "T' models with the slot cut for a shoulder stock. They do not have waffenamps, both have all-matching S/N's and no where do they say 'Browning.' I have seen and owned a lot of HP's but never any quite like these. Any info on these pieces?

Never said I was fast, did I? When I had the camera I didn't have the guns, and vice versa. Finally had a chance to make a photo of one of them but my son had the other with him in the boat.
Anyhow, look the pics over and tell me if it is 'just another P35.....' Can anyone see enough of the markings on the grip panel to ID it?


Hope you can see enough detail to tell something about them.

I think the old Hi-Power is an awesome pistol. Never quite got the point of why they named it "Grand Puissance" or "High Power," though. After all, it's just a 9mm! Maybe they were adding up all the cartridges in it?

The name 'High Power' conjures up an image of a pistol of awesome strength but the Browning is not a monstrous magnum automatic. The title is a translation of 'Grand Puissance', the name given to it by the Belgium army, which adopted it in 1935. It was simply much more powerful than anything the Belgians had used before.

quote:

It was simply much more powerful than anything the Belgians had used before.

Which might have been "Grand Pusillanime," then?

I've got my tongue in cheek. I've been an old fan of Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper who believed everything they said, and used to think anything smaller than a .44 Special wasn't worth having.

I've got a Taurus PT-92 now, a Star Model B on the way, and would certainly love to have at least one Hi-Power. Back in my big bore fanatic days I would've made an exception for a Hi-Power, I just couldn't afford one.

I have a Belgium model High Power with factory target sights and I have the extra 30 Luger barrel with it. Boy, is it fun shooting with the 30 Luger barrel.

I notice lately in the sale flyers that there are Hi-Powers made by FEG in Hungary, and Armscor in the Phillippines is now making a Hi-Power. I have one of their "Rock Island Armory" 1911s that's a really nice piece, and their copies of the Colt Police Positive and Detective Special .38s have a good reputation. Fact is, in some small ways I think the R.I.A. M1911 is better than the Colt Government Model I bought new in 1977, and it certainly doesn't give anything up to it. Their Hi-Power should be worth looking into...