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Was a bayonet fixture for the Winchester Model 1897 trench gun available, and used, during World War I? It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson | ||
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Yes, on ALL Trench Guns. Not just the Winchester 1897 but the Winchester 1912 AND the Savage-Stevens as well. I've seen a '97 and, unbelievable her in England, a Savage-Stevens also. | |||
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The bayonet used was the M1917, as used on the U.S. Rifle of the same nomenclature. The military never used the term "trench gun" in its contracts or manuals. They were all riot guns, some plain and more in what we know as the "trench gun" style. None of the M97 Winchesters of WWI were martially marked. Following the war approximately 20% of these were martially marked with hand held stamps with U.S. and the Ordnance bomb. All WWII trench guns were martially marked. Watch out for forgeries, as many riot guns were modified to trench gun configuration by citizens. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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One of Us |
So it is reasonable to believe that some of Pershing's AEF used Winchester Model 97s with bayonet attached when they attacked German trenches? It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson | |||
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More than reasonable. It is a fact. The Germans hated the shotguns so much that they tried to get them outlawed for land warfare. That didn't work. The M97 can be fired by holding the trigger down and running the pump through the entire magazine. This is a very fast way to clear a trench of opfor. The 2 3/4" 00 buckshot load sent 9 .32 pellets outbound from each round. They were unsurpassed for clearing the trenches. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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One of Us |
My concern/query is not about M97s, but about the bayonet. I need reassurance or some sort of documentation link to verify that the bayonet fixture for the M97s was not a post-WW I or World War II alteration. If the fixture was available, it should be reasonable to believe at least some Doughboys would have affixed bayonets to M97s when attacking trench works. The 1917 bayonet could have been storage inventory for use, for example, by POW camp guards during WW II -- probably was. But it's AEF service I'm interested in. It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson | |||
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One of Us |
Well, Since anyone who was there at the time would now be approximately 109 years old, I doubt you're gonna find any first hand testimony. The fact is that the trench gun configuration did exist and was used by the AEF in France. The trench gun configuration includes the bayonet adapter for the M1917 bayonet. The M1917 bayonet was the most used bayonet, because the M1917 rifle was the most used rifle by the AEF. Hence, I believe it safe to assume that some doughboy or Marine, armed with an M97 or other trench gun, did at some point fix his bayonet while in combat. Drawings, photos and references are available in U.S. Army Field Manuals and reference works by Poyer and/or Canfield. I own a Winchester M97 WWI contract trench gun w/bayonet. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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All you need is a WWI photo or movie footage. You will seen some unusual things if you watch enough of the WWI combat documentaries. | |||
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From listening to British and Commonwealth veterans of that period and reading their various memoirs and recollections I actually doubt that, in practice, the bayonet was fitted when trench raiding at night. I've no doubt that the fittings were WWI. That is without any doubt. Or that the man so armed would have carried a bayonet. But I have doubts that it actually would have been fitted on the gun by that man. Why? Because all the talk is of "handiness" in close quarters. A bayonet makes the thing longer (not a good idea - too easy for the enemy to see you coming and or push it to one side) and less "handy". The British, for example, in trench raiding at night took mostly revolvers, clubs, and grenades. With maybe only a few armed with rifles for long range fire if things went wrong and things had to be "mixed" with the enemy in No Man's Land. Having said that the AEF was relatively "naive" with no battle experience when it landed and soldiers may have fixed bayonets as they were trained to do in the manuals. Then as they grew more experienced kept what practices worked, discarded those that didn't (or their British instructors told them didn't) and adopted new practices that did work. I'm also pretty certain that for trench raiding at night - IF the AEF ever did any on a widespread scale as in trench raiding at night rather than the usual daytime frontal assaults - that the Colt 1911 was at a high premium. Here in UK we never read of German trench raiding at night...but I suppose they must have done it? I don't remember if "All Quiet on the Western Front" mentions it? Maybe you need to look for any memoirs of the US soldiers. Here in UK we've lots: "Goodbye to All That", "Memoirs of an Infantry Officer", Etc., etc. They often give useful insights. | |||
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Agree 100% with your comment regarding the use of the bayonet on the trench guns as being highly unlikely while in the trenches, as the maneuverability of the shotgun would have been greatly hampered. It most likely would have been attached for frontal assaults for exactly the reverse reason - more distance between the soldier and his enemy. My research indicates the trench gun and the M1911 pistol or the M1917 revolver were the weapons of choice for the AEF during CQB with the Hun. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Many thanks, guys, for your assistance. It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson | |||
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I have been told that it was the firing squad right then and there if an American or British was captured with one. The historical record is mute as to any French soldiers ever being found with one--or any gun, for that mater... | |||
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I've heard tell the same about sawtooth bayonets, scoped sniper rifles, and brass knuckle trench knives. Not considered cricket. | |||
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Uncle Sam thought that every long arm needed a bayonet military thinking at the time thought of the bayonet as last chance weapon. they still have provisions on the M16 (bayonet lug) for one, even though its design does not work well with one. the shotgun heat shield/handguard accepted the 1917 bayonet it would not accept the 1905 bayonet for the springfield | |||
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Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun with "trench gun" heat shield and bayonet adapter M1917 bayonet shown below. http://www.olive-drab.com/od_o...arms_shotgun_m97.php | |||
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