Watched the movie "For Whom the Bells Toil" again last night for the umpteenth time and have a question. Seems a lot of the weapons in the movie were other than what I would have expected to see - Krag bolt rifles (30/40's?) BAR, Lewis guns, etc. Was this just another case of what ever was at hand being used and no respect for historical accuracy? I would think the opposing forces used anything they could get their hands on but never expected to see a Krag.
Anyone have an accurate, factual source of the weapons used in the Spanish civil war????? I'd really like to know as this has piqued my curiousity!

mosin nagants (International Brigades; I knew a man who carried one in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade)

carcanos (italian fascist troops)

spanish mausers (Franco's troops)

I don't know what weapons the Germans (Condor Legion) brought with them, or used

-and there were a good number of different political factions in the forces that opposed Franco.

just off the top of my head.

automatic weapons, etc, I wouldn't know.


I'm in the blue collar end of the film business, I'm sure they got what weapons they needed for the movie out of inventory in the property department, for the most part, regardless of historic accuracy.

I have an interest in the Spanish Civil War, I've studied it somewhat, and I still forget who, loyalists, Republicans, Anarchists, Commununists, Rebels, etc, opposed who.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

your post reminds me of something: I was watching Turner Classics early one morning last year, a film named "Ball of Fire", a screwball comedy with Barbara Stanwyck, Henry Fonda, etc.

towards the end of the film, two of the actors playing thugs come into the scene, one is carrying a Luger carbine, the other a C96 Mauser carbine- I see this and hit the floor and get my face right on the TV screen, making sure what I'm seeing is what I'm seeing.

what an odd choice of weapons to use, and even in 1940-41, when the film was made, those two guns were rarities.

in a later scene, the mauser is fired full auto, probably with live ammo.

Interrestingly, they also used the Tigre rifle, which was an spanish licensed copied rifle in .44-40, an spanish copy of the wichester M92 .

The pistols was various like the standard serving pistols, ad the spaniards filed the Astra pistols.

Many Scandinavian fought there on both sides, and sevral would face each other in WW2 on both sides, sevral of those guys also fought in finland against the russians also.

quote:

Many Scandinavian fought there on both sides, and sevral would face each other in WW2 on both sides, sevral of those guys also fought in finland against the russians also

I think that was also the case in other european countries- it's a very interesting piece of history.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tin can:
I don't know what weapons the Germans (Condor Legion) brought with them, or used

Germans but NOT Condor Legion!

Now, this is something I can get my teeth into. Francisco Franco used "dummy companies" to "lease" planes and tanks and recruited "volunteers" from the Luftwaffe and the Panzer Corps to serve in Spain. These "volunteers" wore no German uniforms and the planes carried no German markings and no active involvement was allowed. It soon became apparent the Spanish pilots had difficulty flying and could not maintain the planes, and at this point direct German involvement became unavoidable. It was about this point Mussolini and the Italian government sent substantial military aid and personnel to assist Franco's fascist struggle.

“THE LEGION CONDOR-AN OVERVIEWâ€

The German military presence in Spain was designated the Legion Condor and was mainly an air effort. By November, 1936, German military assistance to Franco consisted of a small naval presence, the North Sea Group (mainly 2 pocket battleships, 4 cruisers, a flotilla of torpedo boats and several U-boats); a land-based force (Army Group Imker) consisting of mainly 3 Panzer tank companies; and a substantial air force contingent. Initially this involved a bomber group consisting of three Ju-52 squadrons, a fighter group consisting of three He-51 squadrons, a reconnaissance squadron of twelve He-70 aircraft, a flak battalion, a communications battalion, a transport battalion and a supply battalion. Over the duration of the war, the German "volunteers" in Spain at any one time numbered only 5000-6000. Almost from the beginning, Hitler's policy provided sufficient military aid to Franco to prevent a Republican victory but not enough for a decisive Nationalist victory. He wanted to "keep the conflict going" and keep the world's attention focused on something other than his own territorial objectives.

THE LUFTWAFFE COMPONENT OF THE LEGION CONDOR

Kampfgruppe 88 was made up initially of 3 (and later 4) squadrons of trimotored Junkers Ju-52 bombers. Jagdgruppe 88 was made up initially of 3 (and later 5) squadrons of Heinkel He-51 biwinged fighters. A squadron was typically 12-16 airplanes with 20-25 pilots and 80-100 ground support personnel. The slow, cumbersome Ju-52 bombers and He-51 fighters were no match for the superior Russian-made planes and did not fare well in the early JU-87 stages of the conflict. Gradually these out-of-date planes were replaced with state-of-the-art Heinkel He-111 bombers, Junkers Ju-87 Stuka dive bombers, and Messerschmitt Bf-109 fighters. Typically, Luftwaffe "volunteer" personnel spent 9 month tours in Spain before being rotated back to Germany.

LUFTWAFFE OPERATIONS IN THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR

Spain was used as a proving ground to test the new weapons and tactics of the fledgling Luftwaffe, a sort of "dress rehearsal" for the upcoming inevitable war in Europe. Since there were very few targets of strategic importance, the Luftwaffe's role evolved into one of mainly close support of ground operations. They regularly attacked forward enemy troop concentrations, enemy airfields and supply lines particularly with the Ju-87 Stuka dive bombers. Fighter pilots developed and refined dog fighting techniques for air-to-air combat situations as well as effective bomber escort techniques. Bomber crews experienced the difficulties of hitting targets from high altitudes and night navigation problems. The Germans experimented with massive area bombing of a civilian area when they attacked the town of Guernica in Northern Spain on April 26, 1937. Like most other subsequent terror bombing attacks on urban areas later in the war, (London, Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin) the attempt to demoralize the population failed. Ironically, legitimate military targets including a key bridge and a munitions/arms factory were undamaged by the attack.â€
[[from http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/legioncondor/legioncondormain.shtml]]

And the Germans did in fact use the Spanish Civil War to refine and develop many of the weapons that were later well known throughout the world: Such weapons as the 88MM Flak 18 and etc, the Pak 43, etc. And we know from documented text that such notables as Adolf Galland served in Spain, commanded 3 / J88, the ‘Mickey Mouse’ Squadron and was awarded the Spanish Cross in Gold with Diamonds for achievements in air warfare. The unconditional support of such notables as Galland et al, such items as the Flak 18 and the men that were there have always seemed to indicate the Nationalists were better served both in men and material than were the Republicans, or Loyalists. It would seem the Spanish actually had little to do with the ultimate outcome but rather the foreign types fighting in Spain. What a strange world. These are well documented items from recorded history.
What I do not know is the amounts and types of small arms used. As someone has posted, I’m sure everything available was used and we know this ran the gamut from the Spanish “Tigre†carbines to who knows what weapons brought in from the opposing countries that came to fight in Spain. No wonder Hemingway and others found such fertile fields of material from which to write!

It was an war in which they tested their gear for an upcoming war.

It was an tragic bloodshed , but also an fascinating war, as for instance Admiral Canaris helped Franco with information and planes to transport his foreign Legion forces from Afrika and to Europe, but he also said to Franco that it was best to not be allied with Hitler at all after this was over.

And it was an war with romance , where the good was fighting the evil , and Hemingway and Frank Capra got much information and inspiration for their litterature and artforms.

quote:

Originally posted by mr rigby:
It was an war in which they tested their gear for an upcoming war.

It was an tragic bloodshed , but also an fascinating war, as for instance Admiral Canaris helped Franco with information and planes to transport his foreign Legion forces from Afrika and to Europe, but he also said to Franco that it was best to not be allied with Hitler at all after this was over.

And it was an war with romance , where the good was fighting the evil , and Hemingway and Frank Capra got much information and inspiration for their litterature and artforms.

quote:

It was an war in which they tested their gear for an upcoming war.

What a profound statement! And this is totally off the subject but we are anyway so here goes: How was Franco able to walk the tightrope as he did and stay in control but actually neutral and nonaligned? I can think of only one parallel to Franco and that would be Marshal Tito in Yugoslavia - anyone else know of any more?

trapper-

there's a film, it was made about 1982-3, called "The Good Fight"- it is interviews with members of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.

It's loaded with lefty/socialist/communist sympathies- but then the people being interviewed are lefties/socialists/communists. regardless, it's a first-person look at going to Spain and opposing Franco. what I'm trying to say is the film is well worth a look, and don't blame me for the politics

in the early 80's I attended several of the Lincoln Brigade's reunions here in New York in the capacity as a photographer, and an interested party.

it's a very interesting period of history.

about 15 years ago I walked away from an Italian officer's, who served in Spain, ceremonial dagger, his photograph, Italian Military photo ID, and an official letter addressed to him while in Spain... wish I would have picked it up, but it's just one of many deals like that I passed on.

quote:

What a profound statement! And this is totally off the subject but we are anyway so here goes: How was Franco able to walk the tightrope as he did and stay in control but actually neutral and nonaligned? I can think of only one parallel to Franco and that would be Marshal Tito in Yugoslavia - anyone else know of any more?

probably because he was propped up by by the governments that opposed each other before and during WW2, I *think*. it was necessary neutral ground, accessable, etc.

quote:

Admiral Canaris

quite a man, and hellish interesting to learn about.

I read somewhere in a book about espionage that every agent Germany sent to England rolled over when they were discovered and cooperated- kinda like that's why they were sent there.

quote:

I read somewhere in a book about espionage that every agent Germany sent to England rolled over when they were discovered and cooperated- kinda like that's why they were sent there.

If - and I stress the 'IF' - you can believe what you read, this is certainly not surprising - considering they were offered the choice of 'turning' or taking the long walk on a short rope. I've read numerous articles stating the Brits were very thorough in the matter - and the agents had exactly thse two choices. Sort of ths same modus operandi they followed immediately after the war with the elements of "Werewolf" they discovered
And again, we've blown the original article to pieces but this is a most interesting thread.

TinCan:
Any idea where a copy of the movie could be obtained or rented?
And TinCan, how did you come by your avatar/signature line? TinCan have any relation or reference to a DD by chance?

here's a start- "The Good Fight"

remember, I don't subscribe to the politics presented. I look on these men (and a woman or two) as brave people who put their lives on the line for what, at that time, they believed in. and as I met some of them later, and was treated well by them, being critical of them personally would be wrong.

quote:

considering they were offered the choice of 'turning' or taking the long walk on a short rope.

actually, the implication from what I read was that Canaris sent Abwehr agents into England with the intention that they turn- Canaris was an anti-nazi starting about 1939-40, when he saw the "Final Solution" he got involved in plots to kill Hitler. Canaris was executed- strangled with piano wire- towards the end of the war.

he's a subject in himself, and he spent a lot of time in Spain.

quote:

And TinCan, how did you come by your avatar/signature line?

I use "tin can" because:

1)I'm a lousy shot

2)I'm a clumsy hunter

-I'm better off shootin' at tin cans

(but a diehard gun lover and appreciater)

I stole the signature from some guy, I don't remember who. "DD" doesn't ring any bells.

TinCan:
This is Navy slang for a destroyer (DD) and I thought you might be [have been?] such.
Look at my avatar; rating badge/insignia for a Fire Control Tech (FT).

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
The National Association of Destroyer Veterans
Over 23,000 members and growing

Learn about us here on our web site
or call (800) 223-5535 Monday - Friday, 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Eastern time



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

We really blew the lid off this thread, eh?

As to Canaris - his card was pulled when he ran afoul of the ambitions of Himmler and Heydrich with their desires to take over all German intelligence organs, virtually the SS against the Abwehr. Canaris was constantly at odds with Himmler from as early as 1935 and it is a testament to his ability to survive in the daily adventure and intrigue that he lived as long as he did, especially after his frequent run-ins with Hitler, etc.

If I am not mistaken he was arrested and then finally executed very late in 1944, and at this point the SS was executing scores of people, even Heer veterans that were seperated from their units were captured and shot or hanged as would-be deserters. Talk about rats and the sinking ship, etc.

It was an bografi i read about Canaris that made him even more him even mysterious afterwards i read it.

Some of the material they wrote about has it tha Canaris also gave SOE information about Heydrich that led to his assasinationation.

He was executed in 1945 just a few weeks before the Americans liberated his prison, i wonder what he could have told the allies.



But back to weapons and gear, everybody got tested their new armament there and tactics.

It was a bunch of where the allies on one side and the axis on the other side, and tha twould be the same for almost 10 years.

quote:

We really blew the lid off this thread, eh?

back to it-

The photos are all of Republican/Loyalist troops, not Facist/Rebel troops.

Mosin-Nagants, Winchesters (a Tigre mr rigby mentioned, and a '95), maybe a Rolling Block, many Mauser types, Astra, Lewis Gun, and looks like P14 Enfields:


















Do you think that '95 Winchester is Russian?

I have seen an Russian M98 model, so it looks similar, notice in the picture of the tigre rifle, next to it is a little 9mm Largo Carbine that looks like an mini edition of the Mauser M95, it has an detachable clip and was made for Guardia Civil.

I wondered, the Japanese army did they have any "advisors" in Spain, since all the other armies had them there.

That Russian Winchester i saw didnt have Russian marks on it all, so its probably been bought over here just as a hunting rifle from an emigrant who came back to Norway.

I never knew so much information was available re the Spanish Civil war - and as to weapons, read the caption on this picture:


And some more data - surely looks like a Japanese officer in the center bottom photo:


Grenade launcher? Italian helmets? - so far, I've been able to identify German [Stahlhelme], Italian, Russian and French helmets - who knows what else was there?


And I found a wonderful site with tons and tons of info here:
Weapons & Military of the Spanish Civil War
Many thanks to all who posted to this thread - a truly enjoyable read about a truly terrible event in our history.

quote:

a little 9mm Largo Carbine

"destroyer carbines", there's actually a destroyer rolled onto the receiver ring.

with a name like that, trapper ought to own a few

I own a couple, but I'd like a really nice example. they're fun to shoot. I'd like one day to get one of mine rebarreled to .30 Mauser.

I have a Italian fascist helmet round here, somewhere, too.

anyone ID this rifle?



trap, your link leads to a page about submarine service.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bbIpgGKtj5Y

I found this documentary on Youtube.

I dont know what kind of rifle it is, but it reminds me of an Steyr Straight pull rifle

quote:

Originally posted by mr rigby:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bbIpgGKtj5Y

I found this documentary on Youtube.

I dont know what kind of rifle it is, but it reminds me of an Steyr Straight pull rifle

Mr. Rigby, good find! Very interesting YouTube entry!

The ammunition box is marked "Cartuchos de guerra para Fusil Mauser de. 7 md 93".

7x57mm cartridges for the Model 93 Mauser. The model 93 is known as the "Spanish Mauser".

I'm no expert on the small arms employed in the Spanish Civil War, but I would hazard a guess and say that the Mod. 93 was one of the more commonly used weapons.

The Mosin-Nagant seems to also show up in pretty large numbers among the Republicans.

Interesting thread!

Has anybody here seen the movie "Land and Freedom" (Tierra y Libertad)? I've heard it's an excellent Ken Loach film but can't find it in the US.

quote:

And some more data - surely looks like a Japanese officer in the center bottom photo:

Japanese..... because he's wearing glasses with little round lenses?!!

This guy?!!



And the other picture shows use of rifle grenades.

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Armas/Infanteria/Fusiles/Fusiles.htm

I think the rifle is an steyr, its an picture of it longer down here in this article i found ,

I`m reading thru the excellent book that Anthony beevor wrote and its a great book about the Civil war and it gives much information about one war that i hadnt learnt much about before.

quote:

Originally posted by mr rigby:
http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Armas/Infanteria/Fusiles/Fusiles.htm

I think the rifle is an steyr, its an picture of it longer down here in this article i found ,

I`m reading thru the excellent book that Anthony beevor wrote and its a great book about the Civil war and it gives much information about one war that i hadnt learnt much about before.

At 01:39? That's a 93 Mauser.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bbIpgGKtj5Y

oops, that was an Mauser alright.. (fatigue)

That officer is a spaniard, not an Japanese, but it wouldtn have surprised me tha they had some officers there also, since the other Axis and allied forces had their men there why not the Japanese?'

Well i found this video on Youtube also and its great , Viva La quinta Brigada tha tChristie moores sings

There was several Norwegians there , Asbjorn "Oswald" Sunde fought for the Republican as he was a Norwegian communist, and he was one of the heroes in the resistance when Adolf wanted our harbors and country from 1940-1945.
A ton of information is ou there, i found this TV film about the civil war also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppB-kVikzv8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApXd8JXmozA

quote:

That officer is a spaniard, not an Japanese, but it wouldtn have surprised me tha they had some officers there also, since the other Axis and allied forces had their men there why not the Japanese?'

I'm sure the Japanese probably had military attachés observing and taking copious notes on the situation in Spain. But I think they were generally too involved with their own affairs in Asia at that time to get actively involved in the Spanish Civil War (like the Germans and the Italians).

PS - The guy in the round glasses is Gen. Emilio Mola.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

a little 9mm Largo Carbine

"destroyer carbines", there's actually a destroyer rolled onto the receiver ring.

with a name like that, trapper ought to own a few

I own a couple, but I'd like a really nice example. they're fun to shoot. I'd like one day to get one of mine rebarreled to .30 Mauser.

I have a Italian fascist helmet round here, somewhere, too.

anyone ID this rifle?



trap, your link leads to a page about submarine service.

tin can,

I do believe the rifle in the photo is a Mannlicher Model 1888/90. It's a straight pull action, 8x50R caliber. It was used by Bulgaria, Greece, Chile, and others. The magazine and the volley fire rear sight are distinguishing features

quote:

hat officer is a spaniard, not an Japanese, but it wouldtn have surprised me tha they had some officers there also, since the other Axis and allied forces had their men there why not the Japanese?'

the Lincoln Brigade had one Japanese man in its ranks, I have no idea concerning "miliary observers".



craigster-

thanks for the ID.

craigster, good call on the weapon.

Spanish M26 helmet.

PS - Both the Nationalist (Franco) and Republican factions during the Spanish Civil War wore this type of helmet. But this is a photo of a Republican.

Well, I must say this thread has certainly piqued the interest of a lot of us, especially me!! I have learned a lot I never knew and find it a fascinating study. As to my post re the Japanese officer I thought at first glance the uniform was Japanese but guess not.
And as to the ID of the rifle I was probably wrong there also - I thought perhaps it was an 1891 or Argentine Mauser.
And as to the weapons, I find virtually anything was possible even if not documented. And it appears there was no shortage of weapons as witnessed here:


Captioned: "In 1936 a group of military leaders tried to overthrow Spain’s elected government, beginning the Spanish Civil War. Together with their supporters, such as the troops shown here, they became known as the Nationalists."
What a logistics nightmare this must have been to find ammo for all of these weapons, not to mention spare parts, etc.

Some of the weapons were strange, to say the least. Take a look and tell me that is not a Chauchat LMG in the front row of this photo? And as the old saying goes, if only that piece could talk!


Captioned: "During the Spanish Civil War, the country was divided into two sides: the Nationalists, led by a group of military leaders who wanted to overthrow Spain’s elected government, and the Republicans, an alliance of groups who resisted the Nationalists’ insurrection. This photograph shows a group of Republican soldiers entrenched during one of the civil war battles."

I found these and a lot more at http://encarta.msn.com/medias_761580634/Spanish_Civil_War.html I have also learned of a wealth of info re the Spanish Civil War. I have a copy of a book entitled "The Camera at War" containing a lot of photos shot by Robert Capa. I'll try and dig it out and see what is contained of interest re the Spanish Civil war.

Trapper, that's a Chauchat alright.

The French provided the Republicans with arms and even aircraft during the early part of the conflict but adopted a Non-Intervention Policy in August of 1936.

That doesn't mean that French arms stopped flowing into the country...... it just means they didn't flow into the country with 'official' approval of the French government.

quote:

And it appears there was no shortage of weapons as witnessed here:

the Spanish made swords for the Roman Legions- they have a long history of manufacturing weapons.

"Gladius hispanicus, " the spanish sword so they has a fine history of making arms in Spain.

The french supported the Republic and many other nations, so seeing the Chauchat wasnt unusual, but many other LMg got tried and tested there .

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Trapper, that's a Chauchat alright.

The French provided the Republicans with arms and even aircraft during the early part of the conflict but adopted a Non-Intervention Policy in August of 1936.

That doesn't mean that French arms stopped flowing into the country...... it just means they didn't flow into the country with 'official' approval of the French government.

Someone said earlier all the nations of the world fought and tested their weapons during the Spanish Civil War. Seein the Chauchaat prompted more search via the involvement of France, and there is plenty to be found.
Vive le France!

Consider this:
"The Communist Party, that had originally supported the Popular Front government in France, now organized demonstrations against Blum's policy of non-intervention. With the left-wing in open revolt against the government and a growing economic crisis, Blum decided to resign on 22nd June.

Maurice Thorez, the leader of the Communist Party in France, began to arrange the recruitment of soldiers to fight in the International Brigades for the Popular Front in Spain. The first group of volunteers left Toulouse on 29th July. The main recruitment centre was in Paris and from there they travelled by train to Perpignan. After spending the night in the town they were driven in trucks into Spain. Others went by sea via Marseilles.

The French supplied more men to fight with the Republican Army than any other country. Over 9,000 served, of whom some 3,000 were killed. It has been estimated that around half of all those who went were members of the Communist Party. The most prominent volunteer was André Malraux who organized a Republican air squadron.

André Marty, another member of the French Communist Party, was responsible for their military training at Albacete. Over the next couple of years Marty developed a reputation as an officer willing to execute his own men if they showed signs of wavering in their communist faith or in their willingness to fight the enemy.

Only about 200 Frenchmen fought for the Nationalist Army. Most of these joined the Jeanne d'Arc Battalion led by Captain Bonneville de Marsangy. Jean Hérold-Paquis also served the Nationalists by broadcasting anti-Republican propaganda on Radio Saragossa.

In January 1938 the French prime minister, Camille Chautemps, closed the frontier with Spain. This upset the Socialist Party and Communist Party and his government fell and was replaced by Leon Blum. When he began to argue for an end to the country's nonintervention policy, Neville Chamberlain and the Foreign Office joined with the right-wing press in France and political figures such as Henri-Philippe Petain and Maurice Gamelin to bring him down.

On 10th April 1938, Blum was replaced by Edouard Daladier, a politician who agreed not only with Chamberlain's Spanish strategy but his appeasement policy.

The border was reopened and 236,000 refugees fled to France in an attempt to escape from the new fascist regime."
[taken from "Odyssey of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade"]

I've always wanted to own one of these. They used to be dirt cheap because of their 9mm Largo chambering.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
I've always wanted to own one of these. They used to be dirt cheap because of their 9mm Largo chambering.

Astra 400 - played with one of these a bit over the years, actually owned a coupe or three. One of the worst handguns I ever shot re pointablilty - not enough angle relation between barrel and grips, at least not enough for me.
Made ammo for these things from 223 brass [no fun, not recommended] and then found the 9mm Winc magnum was the correct length and almost identical to the Largo but not interchangeable until reloaded. Last time I loaded any was 100 rds for a friend, loaded it in virgin Starline brass and when he left I had traded him my dies so I was then totally out of the 9mm Largo business. And like you, I wish I once again had one of the critters.
BTW, I think I bought one of these about 1966 or '67, complete with holster and extra clip, for the princely sum of $20. Those were the days!

quote:

One of the worst handguns I ever shot re pointablility

I can see why that would be the case! Grip to bore angle.....

Converting .223 cases to 9mm Largo!

MAN...... I am a hard core reloader,... but that doesn't sound like much fun. I can see why you gave it up!

I have a Destroyer Carbine. I like it alot.

quote:

Astra 400

about ten years ago there was a load of astras, don't remember what model- 400 or whatever, that were bolivian (or some other SA country) navy models, had the crest with an anchor on it. killer.

I recall when lugers sold mail order for 39 bucks, they must have wanted around ten for an astra back then.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

Astra 400

about ten years ago there was a load of astras, don't remember what model- 400 or whatever, that were bolivian (or some other SA country) navy models, had the crest with an anchor on it. killer.

I recall when lugers sold mail order for 39 bucks, they must have wanted around ten for an astra back then.

Probably not too far off, have a look at this:


[copied from Image Gallery]
the ad depicted is from 1960 so I'm sure they had been cheaper? And I think that Klein's paid either $7.50 or $8.50 for the Caracano Oswald assasinated JFK with, then sold it to him with scope for $19.95!
My, how time changes things!