...but how about 7.62 mm ball? Does it drop bad guys in their tracks, or do they run off like the ones hit by 5.56mm do?

That being said, how do 5.56mm and 7.62mm do against bad guys when Sierra Matchkings are loaded? I have heard that some snipers are using Matchkings, and they sneaked it through the Geneva Convention on the basis that Matchkings are 'not designed to expand' (even if they do).

If you want to learn the facts about 5.56 stopping power, I suggest you go here: www.ammo-oracle.com and start reading. It is a HUGE download, so be patient.

As for 7.62, the (new) current issue M118LR (.308) that is issued to U.S. snipers, comes loaded with 175 Sierra Matchkings. It is totally legal for military purposes, and it works just fine.

Good luck

From ammo-oracle.com:

quote:

---

Q. I heard that M855 has had serious stopping problems in Afghanistan. Is this true?

Yes.

Though early M855 experiments showed the round fragments well in the lab, out of M4s M855 has been showing inconsistent fragmentation and occasional serious stoppage issues. Partially because of the complex construction of the round, from batch to batch M855 has variable yaw performance, often not yawing at all through 7-8 or even 10" of tissue. This is complicated by the low velocity implicit in using M855 out of the short barrelled M4 platform.

Interesting, none of these reports seem to be coming from troops 20" or SAW platforms.

---

not to start a fight, but matchkings are expanding bullets, (dont know the tecnical term) and as such, banned by the geneva convention.

OK, here is one link: http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm but it does not talk about the legality issue. I'll keep searching.

i know nothing about the legality of this,but it says on the sierra matchking box," not to be used for hunting"
the hollow point is just for areo-dynamics.not to blow up like hunting hollow points.
muskrat
only free men own guns,slaves do not!!!!

Is it the Geneva Convention that addresses the treatment of POWs and the Hague Accords that deal with which bullets are "humane" enough for use in "civilized" warfare? I would be devastated if a foreign invader of the USA were to be shot with an unauthorized bullet. curmudgeon

So, handgrenades, and landmines, or o'k, but MatchKings are banned? Makes since to me!

The plain simple truth is ,like in handguns the same is in rifles there is no magic bullet, the 223/ 5.56nato was a piece of crap when it first came out,but has been greatly improved over the years,its not a sure killer past 100 meters no matter what any one says , but inside that range and in the bush the quick follow up shots are what makes it a real zinger. the russian 7.62x39 is a good round also inside that range limit and you mite strecth it out to 200 meters in a good bolt gun but in the AK's its pushing it, I once took three rounds from one during a fire fight and stayed on my feet returning fire, alot of people have done so, you can't even count on buckshot to work all the time, I shot one VC at less then 10yards with a load of 00 center mass and he still ran away into the bush, in the Military it just comes down to keep pumping bullets into it or them untill they stop or go away.

Dave glad to hear you made it back!

I believe the banned bullets were dum-dums, which I believe were lead with a cross cut across the nose.

Something nastier that was at one time used, was the Puckle gun. I've seen a few over the years. There was an aricle in an old Shooters Bible or gun Digest about them. The bore was about an inch I recall. They were used in India during the English colonial days. The action was somewhat like a Gatling gun in function.

The thing that made them interesting was the projectiles. There were two style of guns made. One with a round bore as we are accustomed to, and one with a square bore. The round bore was to be used on Christians, and the square on others.
Interesting concept. I image this may be politically incorrect nowadays.

After shooting varmints and the like, I've come to the conclusion that even at short range, the 7.62x39 FMJ is a piss-poor killer. All it does is leave a .30 hole in and a .30 hole out. The 5.56x45 on the other hand, makes a .22 hole in and a mess inside often with a mangled exit. Unless I have to shoot *through* trees, I'll use the 5.56 over the 7.62x39 anyday.

BECoole,

Varmints do not offer enough resistance to a bullet as large as a .308 cal to cause the bullet to function. The fact that the bullet was FMJ on top of it there is no way the bullet would up set. My pdog shootin' partner shoots his .30-06 with the 165 grain Sierra SBT at everything. This hunting bullet will upset out to about 250 yards. Any further, the bullet has slowed to the point that it does not function.

The 7.62x39 is a much better performer on people than the 5.56. What is a lot more important, it will do a better job of keeping you alive.

You know, I've been hit in the leg with a .22 LR. I didn't like it a bit. I most definately would not like to be hit in the chest with a 5.56 ball. Me thinks that those that gripe about "stopping power" have never been shot themselves.

While I too have heard from those that complain that "I shot him with a full magazine of .30 carbine, 5.56, etc, etc" I wonder if they ever counted the holes in the body when they finally did stop him.

Just thinking.

Eric

I've seen one person shot with one round of 5.56 and he exhibited the following life signs namely stillness and onset of stiffening.

Did you mean 7.62x39 was a better killer than 5.56 NATO? I've not read anything claiming that, that I recall. Do you have some information supporting that assertion?

Inquiring minds want to know.

BECoole,

My opinion is based on killing people who were serious about killing me. The straw that broke the camels back was when two people were on different sides of a bamboo grove. The grove was so thick that I could only get an impression of a person rather than a sighting. I was using a M-16, the other guy, an AK. If it hadn't been for another person, who also was using an AK, I'd still be fertilizing that damn bamboo. I know the other was carrying a AK because a few minutes later, I was carrying it. I never posted anyone I'd killed with either the M-16 or the AK, but I did have a strong impression that the AK put people down more suddenly than the M-16 did. As far as reaction to wounds, a whole lot depends on the state of mind when shot, as too a person reacts. Just like a deer who's head is down and eating, a relaxed man drops pretty quick. Unless a major bone is broke or the central nervous system is effected, a serious man, doing serious work is hard too put down for keeps. When I say a major bone, I don't mean an arm or single lower leg bone either. I mean the pelvis, which works pretty good, the spine or thigh bone. I've seen gut shot men who were dying shoot up a lot of ammo. I've also seen some men, and size doesn't enter into it, carry hard wounds a long ways when it was necessary. Sad to say, I've also seen those who weren't hit very hard lay down and die, just because they'd been shot.

As for using a knife, I know of only one location that results in an instant kill. The kidney is not slow, but it isn't fast either. Cutting a throat is pretty slow. On top of that it is really messy. Worse yet it is very noisy. Sounds just like the guy is gargling. If you don't lay on him, he'll thrash around a bunch and can be heard for a long ways. To add an additional problem, if your covered with blood, youreally stink and can be smelled a long way off. Even up wind. Have I ever been shot, yes. I never felt the ones that knocked my legs out from under me, or the two I took in the back in a hold up when I was a police officer. The others all hurt like hell. The first two were the most serious. The doctors told me that is why I didn't feel them. Shock set in very quick. It was funny, I knew something was wrong, but I didn't seem to care.

[ 06-14-2003, 09:00: Message edited by: BigBob ]

Hmmm...

I thought the original post was asking about 7.62x51 NATO (.308).

[ 06-12-2003, 07:11: Message edited by: LZ ]

Weird, I was just about to ask a very similar question.

So how about a 150 gr FMJ from a .308? Hows that going to do?

It seems to me like any FMJ is going to leave alot to be desired.

Are there any other countries abiding by the Hogue Convention?

And if you were to design one bullet, 5.56 or 7.62, to cover the majority of military applications, from unarmored to soft armored opponents from point blank to lets say 400 yards for the 5.56 and 600 for the 7.62, how would you design it?
I think I would go with a polymer tip or hollow point over a core of compressed metal shavings with a sub-caliber penetrator. It would work best in 7.62 mm. Perhaps a hollow point with a bimetal jacket and a 5% antimony lead core would work too.

Our varmint hunting is rather different than most people's. I hunt em in forested areas where long shots are still under 100 yards. My brother and I usually prefer a shotgun on full choke with lead #4 or 6 and a rifle--either an SKS or our hunting rifles. A 7 Mag ends the situation as would be expected, however, my experience with the 7.62x39 out of an SKS is completely different than the other guys.
We use Wolf BMJBT from an SKS, either a Yugo carbine or late model Russian, with 16 and 20" barrels, respectively. Usually, when we shoot a ground squirrel with one, we find it right where we shot it with chunks blown all over the place and entrails hanging out. We've actually come to prefer this gun do to quick handling and second shots, and the fact that it is more effective than a .22 rimfire and has a longer range than the shotgun. A round of 12 gauge shot often leaves the squirrel twitching and such with enough time to crawl down their holes...same with the 22. I have yet to see a single ground squirrel move anywhere after being shot with even a FMJ out of a SKS.

This is exactly why a dear friend of mine loved his M79 soo much. He often says that the reason he made it home was because he had his M79. NO FOLLOW UP HITS NEEDED!

It's my understanding that the battle rifle's purpose is to wound. A wounded man requires several other men to care for him, there by reducing the number of combatants. The more wounded men, the fewer bad guys that require shooting. Plus it's demoralizing to the other side to hear one of their own screaming, yelling and thrashing around.
The important thing is to drop him, take him out of the fight so you can deal with other bad guys. After the bullets stop flying, he can be dealt with using your rifle, side arm or your knife.
Being sure other guy is dead is a luxury you can't afford in a fire fight.
Jim

LZ,

Due to so much trash being posted, quite often I'll read only the inital post and then reply too it. I didn't think the original post refered to the .308. Maybe I just didn't think. I've had some experience with the M-14, and as much better the 7.62x39 is over .223 IMHO, that same gap exist between the 7.62x39 and the 7.62x51 in the favor of the 7.62x51.

I've just read the entire post and I don't think I was the only one confused. If I was the cause of the confusion, I apologize. I guess I'm getting picky in my old age. I'm irritated by those who claim to know so much about a subject they have no experience with. If all the people who today claim to have served in either Korea or Nam had acually been there, maybe I wouldn't have. Somehow I feel as if it denigrates those who stayed behind.

Hey BigBob,

I totally agree... the 7.62x51 is definately the best of that bunch. But I do like the 5.56 also. The biggest limiting factor for the 5.56, IMHO, is range. I think it is pretty effective up to 180 yards or so (M855 or M193) with a 20 " barrel rifle. But beyond that it really just becomes a glorified 22. One nice thing about it is the light weight, and the ability to carry a bunch of ammo for the same amount weight. I guess like everything else in life, it is a compromise.

Here is a pretty good (though somewhat biased) link to 5.56 performance.

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/556performance.msnw

LZ

Oh BTW, I have never been in combat...and I hope I never am!

[ 06-16-2003, 04:37: Message edited by: LZ ]

So if the effective range statements are correct the 5.56X45 NATO is essentially the equal of the old US 30 Carbine! That is precisely what it was intended to be, BTW.

BigBob, you comments about the reaction of men to being shot mirrors my own experience with animals. A bear that is unaware of your presence can be dropped were he stands with a 30-06. If he knows you there and is upset about it. I hope you have your life insurance paid up. The old 30-06 will only stop him now with a CNS hit, ten rounds in the torso won't even slow him down!!! BTWm CNS hits are NOT easy to make on charging bears!!!! Their heads move around ALOT when they are running at you! Although you might get "lucky" and blow is jaw off. That just means you will be beaten to death, instead of beaten and mauled to death!

If I HAD to be shot at 300 yards and the choices were:

5.56X45 NATO
7.62X39 Bloc
7.62X51 Nato

I would DEFINITELY ask to be shot with the 5.56X45 as I am certain I would have the least tissue trauma and therefore the best possible chance of surviving. Me personally, I would rather not get shot...PERIOD!!

The FMJ bullet was selected precisely for it's minimal tissue trauma characteristics! That is why I always laugh at the guys that insist on using FMJ bullets on buffalo and bears! These same guys then complain how it took 10 rounds to finish off the beast!!! To which I say...DUH!!!

Axel

[ 06-14-2003, 18:34: Message edited by: Axel ]

Seems our military keeps reinventing the wheel. During the Plains Indian wars the US military had the 45 Colt single action, rather effective for stopping people. Then the Europeans started using 38 caliber rounds of various sorts. Our military thinkers switched the service side arm over to the 38 Colt, which had the knock down power of a wiffle ball. During the Philippine Insurrection our military discovered just how ineffectual the 38 Colt was and reissued the 45 Colt single action and sent out proposals for a 45 caliber semi auto. Which brought us the 45 acp, which is considered by many to be just about perfect as a side arm. Then someone in the government decided that rather then replacing the old 1911a1s with fresh stock, the US would field a 9mm side arm.
During all of this the military went from the 45-70 Springfield Trapdoor which did a ratherfine job of slapping some one down, to the 30-40 Krag, then to the 30-06 (I'm skipping the 30-03) Springfield. Then the US had the Garand in 30-06, switching to the M-14 308 (7.62 Nato) then to the M-16 223 Remington (5.56 Nato).
Now it seems that every unit that can come up with even a vagely logical reason, is going back to the 1911a1 and 45 acp. And on the rifle side of the issue, various units are trying to get some sort of rifle, in numbers, that shoots the 7.62 Nato.
I'm sure that some where in the vast military industrial complex, right now as we chat, some one is trying to adapt the Springfield Trapdoor to some sort of magazine feed.
You shoot a guy with a 500 grain lead ball and he will stay shot!
Jim

Well, there's always the .50 Beowulf, based on the M16....

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

I never shot anyone that I was able to watch afterward to see about "stopping power". There was always too much happening otherwise that occupied my attention, so I was unable to judge immediate results "on target" so to speak. However, in discussing wound ballistics with a couple of combat support hospital surgeons in VietNam, I was told that they were NOT able to determine which HV rifle bullet had inflicted a specific wound, that all rounds, .30/'06, 7.62X54R, 5.56mm NATO, 7.62X51mm NATO, and 7.62X39mm all made wounds which appeared to be about the same. Of course, this kind of information does not give much of a clue as to immediate reaction to being hit, just the amount of tissue disruption the surgeon had to deal with after the victim arrived at the treatment facility....

I recently read somewhere...I believe it was in Remtek arms when reading about the FN M249 SAW, that the current M855 ball ammo employed with the 5.56x45 NATO exhibits better penetration characteristics than the current M80 ball employed with the 7.62x51, being able to penetrate a standard issue PASGT helmet at 1100 yards. This same article also stated that the Green Tip round also has a base of lead behind the steel penetrator, which is why the round fragments at high velocity. If this is true, I can't imagine where all the complaints are coming from as it would seem that this would exhibit better wound characteristics than the standard FMJ.

Yep. M855 is basically the U.S. version of FN's SS109. It is a 62 grain bullet, and like you said, it has a steel tip with a lead core under the full metal jacket. The military used this round to replace the older M193, which was a 55 grain FMJBT, without the steel tip. The primary reason for the change was to enhance long range performance, and penetration. But this construction of M855 is not what actually causes it to fragment. M193 also fragments very well. This fragmenting is limited by bullet velocity though, and thus the range at which it fragments is also limited. There is a ton of good information on bullet fragmenting over at the ammo-oracle on AR-15.com. They explain the causes of the fragmenting, and also have a bunch of ballistic and wound data there. It's a good read, if you are interested in that kind of stuff.

[ 06-16-2003, 04:35: Message edited by: LZ ]

Well, right now, the complaints about the 5.56mm are coming from US personnel in Afghanistan, and are a result of some noticeable failures when shooting enemy troops. It has gotten to the point that someone in the military is looking at a necked-up version shooting a .277" or .284" bullet from the 5.56mm case, so the M16 could be converted by a simple barrel change! I am not clear which bullet diameter is being considered, but believe we may be looking at a ".270 TCU" proposition. Have also heard, via COL Jeff Cooper, that "the Marines are looking for a new combat handgun"!!

I'm grateful that at least with a .223 the bad quys are getting hit before they run off.

Have you ever seen untrained recruits, weekend warriors, or even regular GI's shooting a M-14. It's not a pretty sight.

From what I hear Sierra 77's were martyring the hell out of the Sierra Novembers in Afghanistan.

The new 6.8 round is pretty interesting if it comes about. It certainly would be a boon for wildcatters. I guess it is sort of a rimless 30/30 necked down, based on the 6MM Lee but from what I understand the use of Sierra 77's has reduced the urgent need for it.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't go with a 6MM, or 6.5, but I'm guessing the sectional density of the 6.8 lets them get a little more velocity than with the smaller bullets.

Perhaps we need two rifles. One for riflemen who will be expected to take out bad guys up close or far away. And another for cooks, drivers and mechanics. For the second category, it's difficult to beat the AK47...

500grains, you may be right, but we sure don't want to create a situation similar to what Japan and Italy were facing during WWII, in which they had two different types of rifle ammo to clog up the logistics system!!