Here is a double date MP 18.1
It shows it was reused officially during the Weimar Republic



It bears the french Saint Etienne proofhouse deactivated weapon stamps.

Excellent photos,Edmond.
And a very interesting weapon.I've copied all your pics for further reference.
Thanks for posting this.
Surely you have more to post.

Happy you guys enjoy them. I do have a lot of more pictures of these, detailed pictures but I feel it would make everyone feeling bad to see 50 or 100 of the same toy.
I'll post more historical pictures

Northern France 1918

Edmond,

On the the STg44 you had pictures of, is that buttstock wood or is it some kind of synthetic composite?

Thanks
Joe

wood. Only part of the MG 42 and some rare MG 34 had bakelite stock.

Munich, May 1919. MP 18 used by the Freikorp von Epp.

I need some help on this one to ID the uniform, it looks to me like the Reichsbahnschutz, railroad police, but...

There is a controversy on the total number made available as front line weapons.
It is known 50 000 were ordered, some sources say 35 000 were delivered before November 1918, the first deliveries taking place in April. So far after having received informations and pictures, I can count on 5 documented cases of MP 18 seized in combat by french soldiers, the highest serial number is below 8500.
The highest number I have seen on "MP18.1" marked SMG is below 17 000 and it seems it was captured by a french soldier who was part of the occupation of Rhineland but strangely does not have the Weimar Republic "1920" . others were marked with "Schmeisser Patents" some were assembled from mismatched receivers and magazine wells.
Most of the pictures I received for identification purpose were in fact pictures of MP 28.

How many MP 18 ended like this one?

Collection WTS Koblenz

US Military Academy West Point collection

In 1919, the Treaty of Versailles classified all pistols with barrels over 10cm or 4†and more than 10 rounds as prohibited weapons both for manufacture and issue. Many of the long barrel Parabellum pistols and most of their TM 08 snail drum magazines were destroyed. The magazine well of the MP 18 was changed for a magazine well designed to accept a stick magazine patented by Hugo Schmeisser.

With the intent to distinguish government-owned weapons from those that were contraband or clandestine, on August 7, 1920, an order was issued by the Reichstag, known as "law for disarmament of the people," that forced all persons to turn in all contraband war weapons obtained from the battlefields during the conflict and also during the revolutionary movements that followed the war.

The directive "Inspektion der Infanterie Nr. 657.T 20 J2s (W.2)" introduced perhaps a most unique circumstance in history, in that the year “1920†was stamped on government-issued weapons as evidence of state ownership.

the same year, Theodor Bergmann sold the right to manufacture the MP 18 to SIG of Switzerland.
Hugo Schmeisser and his brother had created a company and patented the stick magazine.

Some MP 18 were assembled clandestinely in Germany using both "MP 18.1" and "System Schmeisser Patent" on weapons assembled from receivers and parts made in 1919 and 1920.

The MP 18 is renamed SIG Bergmann 1920. It is first produced in 7.65 Parabellum(.30 Lüger) the caliber used by the swiss army, very few are exported in this caliber mainly to Japan for tests. it is then chambered in 7.63 mm Mauser for China.
Japan will buy a few thousands to equip its Marines and some of its security forces.

They will be used during the invasion of China in various landings, the battle in Shanghaï will see an extensive use of these SMGs.

Affordable MP18? Here Ya go

It is written in a few books that Vollmer designed his first SMG around 1925 based on the MP 18 but until now, no picture had ever been published.
It is interesting to note that the magazine is vertical like it will be later on the MP 36, MP 38 and the MP 40 or the MP 41.

German SMGs like the MP 38 and MP 40 are wrongfully called Schmeissers, in fact, Hugo Schmeisser's contribution to these weapons is limited to the use of a magazine design he had patented in 1919.

The last two offsprings of the MP 18 were the Estonian Tallinn model 1923 submachinegun manufactured in small quantity, estimated to 100 pieces, directly based on MP 18-I and the Finnish Lindelöf submachinegun, based on Swiss Bergmann 1920 (itself copy of the MP18) estimated to 60 or 70 pieces.

in 1920, Theodor Bergmann has sold the production rights of the MP 18 to SIG since he could not produce any SMG under the Treaty of Versailles. His son Emil will later work on a new SMG design that he will produce after 1930.
Hugo Schmeisser has left Bergmann where his father Louis had worked his whole life until his death in 1917. The design of the MP 18 was the common work of Louis Schmeisser, Hugo Schmeisser, Theodor Bergmann and another technician who was a LMG specialist. Theodor Bergmann had foreseen the use of aluminium in weapons and his Bergmann LMG 1915 nA ( neuer Art, new version) had been a success.
Hugo Schmeisser and his brother Hans will create two companies, one of them only to protect Hugo's patents in case of bankrupcy.
Hugo still works clandestinely on SMG designs but it is not enough to earn bread and butter, he joins Haenel as weapon designer. founded in 1840, Haenel produces pistols, hunting weapons and bicycles. The main product is a Browning design .25 ACP pistol.
Soon the Haenel Schmeisser Model 1 enters production. Haenel buys Schmeisser's company, Hugo and Hans escape bankrupcy. Later, Hugo, Hans and their attorneys will become de facto owners of their saviour when they become major shareholders after Haenel crosses a difficult period without any sales.
Later Haenel will be the major actor in new weapons development like the MkB 42(H) precursor of the StG 44 aka MP 44.

in 1928, Haenel launches the production of the MP 28, a MP 18 with a fire selector and a different rear sight.
The design of the MP 18 is still used as it will be later in the british Lanchester and Sten.

The MP 28 will be used in all the conflicts between 1930 and 1940, like this one used in the Chaco war between Bolivia and Paraguay from 1932 to 1935.

The MP 28 will be used by both sides during the civil war in Spain. The Republican will manufacture a perfect copy, only the cocking lever differs from the original.

I found an interesting site, there is a description of the siege of Tsing Tao.
http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Tsing_Tao/Tsing_Tao_00.htm

I have many german documents I gathered referring to the german period of Shandong, even today the traces Germany left are present and german companies started joint ventures there.

While the MP-28/II was produced in limited numbers in Germany by C.G.Haenel company in Suhl, it was produced under license in significant numbers in Belgium, by Pieper, and sold to South Africa, Bolivia,Paraguay,Argentina, Chile, China, Japan and Spain. The belgian army adopted it in 1934 as Mitraillette Modele 1934.
The MP 28 was a modified MP 18.

Emil Bergmann designed the BMP 32 that is a different design, the bolt is brought to the rear cocked position by an action very similar to the one needed to use a Mauser rifle.
The BMP 32 shows a high degree of craftmanship and is still a costly weapon to produce.

The french SMG MAS 1924








From this site :
http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/PM%20STA%201924.html

Quite strangely, the french STA 1924 will inspire the italian Beretta 1935



it is later modified into the 1938 A, one of the best WW2 SMGs



and into the 38/42, both 1938 A and 38/42 being the favorites of german paratroopers.

Many people disagree with me labelling the MP 18 the first submachinegun, saying that the first SMG is the Villar Perosa.

Abiel Bethel Revelli designed the VP aka Villar Perosa, OVP 1915, Fiat mod.15, FIAT Revelli.

5000 pieces were manufactured, 3000 of them captured in 1917 at Caporetto where the italian army faced the worst defeat of its history.

The VP was thought as a LMG. Here are some pictures, a picture worths one thousand words.















The Beretta 1918 will enter service after WW1 and will see a very limited use as an automatic carbine.





The Beretta will be modified in 1930 without much success, it was fragile and unreliable.This will be the last attempt to use the 1918 original italian design.





Only one piece of this OVP prototype was made, it will later inspire Vollmer.

Vollmer was really good at modifying and perfecting existing SMGs
and started his own design with the VMP that will feature the telescopic bolt later used on many german MPs.
The problems of reliability will always come from the patented Schmeisser magazine
with its steep change of angle from two columns to one that will cause feeding problems.

The picture above is a scan of one of the best books I know for quality pictures: http://www.sipublicaties.nl/index_engels.htm

Edmond,

What the history of the Schmeisser that we see so often in WWII movies and from what I'm told is incorrectly labeled. These guns you show here, did they evolve into the one seen so often with the Germans?

Joe

In what is wrongly labeled a Schmeisser, only one part is really entirely the work of Schmeisser, the straight box magazine. and that's the worst part of the MP 38 and the MP 40.

Of course, Schmeisser brought his stone to what will become one of the most known submachinegun.

Most important is the concept and the use,see my other thread, the French built the first reloading rifles: in 1888 the Clair brothers rifles, in 1913 they adopted the Meunier 6.5 mm,in 1917 the RSCG 1971 followed by the RSC 1918, the first automatic rifle RSCG 1915 aka Chauchat, the first firing port weapon on FT 1917 thanks in 1918, the first intermediate round in 1918 a 8 mm bullet on a Winchester SL case, the first HMG round 13 mm Hotchkiss etc..

But they sometimes failed to use it the way it would have given the best service or delayed the moment it entered service for budgetary reasons or political reasons.

Germany on the other hand developed new weapons and new concepts at the same time.

The link between the MP 18 and the MP 40 is direct both in terms of technology and military concept.
When the two bolts are side by side, they are really alike, I'll take some pictures of both.
And the way they were used is identical, based on fire and movement of a light infantry.

Vollmer worked on his VMP using the telescopic spring assembly and he will use it all his other creations.
He did not have the financial possibility to manufacture himself the modified VMP on an industrial scale, he sold the licence to ErMa, it became the EMP

Here is a 1932 EMP



Here is the copy made in Spain during the civil war

EMP used by french soldiers 1939/1940. They were bought from Germany before 1939..200 pieces only were delivered and an order for MP 28 was not filled when the war broke, September 1939.
More than 3000 EMP ( but only 1400 magazines) had been seized when the spanish republican refugees crossed the french border to find a shelter.
Most of them where chambered for 9 mm Bergmann Bayard aka 9 mm Largo and not the 9x19 mm.
These soldiers belong to Corps Francs and often made german prisoners during recon missions in german positions.

in 1936, the MP 36 is really close to the MP 38 and MP 40.
The only known piece is now at the Prague Military Museum.
I came across a strange story that around end 1942 or beginning of 1943, an OSS team had been parachuted near Berlin to kill an important nazi. The US major in charge of the team would have been able to enter the house and took a SMG hanging on the wall and brought it back to US. it is said it was a MP 36. Nice story..
Looks like someone in US may have a MP 36 that is a bring back of 1945..



This picture found on a russian site is probably lifted from the propaganda series book.

Another SMG directly linked to the MP 18 is the Steyr Solothurn MP 34

From this site: http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/shop/deacguns.html

The soviet PPD 34, 38 and 40 are based on MP 18 design, the drum magazine is a copy of the finnish SMG drum magazine.