Orion, It's pretty obvious that "Eric I qualified expert" sure isn't out to impress anybody...well maybe a couple of thirteen year olds, but whatever turns his crank.

Actually I work there part time.

Heritage Arms,you work at a gun shop?I don't have a job yet.I'm gonna work at McDonalds with my friend(probably).Oh,Cold Bore,are you mad at me?Just wondering.Anyways,I have A Bushmaster catalog and the price of their M-4(retail) is 1000+ dollars.Same as the Colt.DPMS makes a nice looking M-4 for about 700$ retail.Oly Arms also makes one but most people don't like Oly.Why don't people liike Oly?Cold Bore,you have an Oly right?Is there anything wrong with it?Also,do people ever use a Armalite in competition?Their M-15A2 looks nice.Eric,are you in the army?Just wondering.
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

[ 08-15-2003, 19:46: Message edited by: Jay Gorski ]

Not to get into a pissing contest because frankly I really don't care. My "rude ass" remark was prompted by a reaction to the perceived disrespectful attitude of a preteen towards his elders. That in itself I find inexcusable but when that is apparently ignored and/or condoned by other adults, well I get a little testy. Hell, if they don't learn some respect now...well then again thats another story.

Can't... resist... asking....

Is Harley #2 because Honda #1?

Tyler did apologize to all he offended, which is a lot more than many of us 'grown ups' would have done in the same circumstances. He may not know that convention requires 2 spaces after period or question mark (which I didn't learn about until I was 15), but I don't recall him resorting to profanity (except for 'frickin' and 'crap'), nor using stunningly original playground comebacks like 'whateeeeeveeerr' and 'see you never.'

Can't resist replying,

The only thing Honda is number one at is huge depreciation in value when you leave the dealer. I don't recall using "whateeeeveer" in its play ground connotation, however in fairness, reading accurately and experiencing subsequent comprehension may not be your forte. Having said that, I'm sure you have other endearing qualities.

Jay,

As you asked, I'll deliver. I was in the active Army from 1970 to 1974. I left the Army as a SGT E-5, with the job of Drill Sergeant. No, I never went overseas. That blinking job kept me here in the states.

I'm in the Oregon National Guard now after flirting with the Marine Reserves and the Air National Guard. I'v got over twelve years in the Guard, most as a Cavalry Scout, the finest job in the service, with the exception of being a fighter pilot.

I'm an SFC E-7 now, I have been a Platoon Sergeant in a line company, but am now assigned as an instructor for Infantry at my states military academy. I've trained, shot and used all weapons in the military from a 9mm handgun up to and including a M220 TOW ATGM. It's been a hoot!

Regards,

Eric

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!Every weapon?What did you like better,A2 rifles or M-4 rifles?I am gonna get the Armalite M-15A2.I remembered holding a A2 and it wasn't bad at all.It is 800$.I think thats a better buy than the Colt.What do you think?Thanks for answering.I thought you might not.
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

Look Jay,

It's a crap shoot. Here is the deal. I like the M-4 a lot, but part of that is because of the job I've been doing, which is Cavalry Scout. That involves A LOT of climbing in and out of a hummer, in the day and night. Obviously a shorter weapon will help that. Also there is the factor that in this job, contact with the enemy is to be avoided as there is almost always more of them than you. In which case a little thing called "fire support" is asked for, which helps a lot.

Regardless of that, the M-4 is accurate enough out to 500 meters. Personally, I think that if your target is over 500 meters away you have no business shooting at him anyway, but that's my opinion and some will disagree.

Some think that the 5.56 is a "wussy round" when shot from a 16 inch barrel. I however have been shot in the leg with a .22 LR and I didn't like it a bit. I presume that a 5.56 at over 500 meters away would hurt more, but as I haven't been shot with one of those, I don't know.

As for my personal likes, I'm partial to the M-16A1, something you can't afford to own. I like the light weight, I personally found it accurate out to 650 meters on a K.D. range (no wind), and really, really like full auto fire. Burst fire stinks. When the buggers are pouring through the door, burst don't work. At least in the training situations I've been envolved in.

So, bottom line, buy what you like. Either the AR-15A2 or and M-4 clone, both will very likely "float your boat." I don't find the weight difference all that much with all the other stuff I have to hump. As for brands, I think the Armalite is a better bang for your buck. Your paying for the name with a Colt. I've owned Olympic Arms, Palmetto Arms, DPMS (which I sent back), Colts, Armalites, and used the Army's Colts, FN's, GM Hydramatics, etc, etc. You know what? They all hit what I wanted if I did my job.

Other than the rifles, I really like the MK-19 40mm grenade launching machine gun, followed by the M-2 .50 caliber, then the M240 B machine gun. But the biggest kick is the M220 TOW ATGM. THAT my friend is a hoot to fire!

Regards,

Eric

I held a A1.It felt kinda wierd.So,the Colt or the M-4 would be good?What are the people in the army normally issued as a rifle.probably the A2 right?I get Armalite.Are M-16s efective for room clearing(in semi)?
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

Tyler,

The neat thing about the Army right now, is that there is a large variety of weapons people are being issued. The M16A2 used to be the most common, but I've seen M16 "flat-tops", with all sorts of stuff hanging off them, like lasers and scopes and flashlights. Also, the M4 is being issued more and more, both with the carrying handle and with the flat-top. We also have soldiers carrying Sig Sauer pistols, in addition to the Beretta, Mk 23 SOCOMs (special ops, only) and the H&K machinepistol in 9mm.

When I first joined the Army in 1983, we had the M16A1 and the M1911A1, and that was it.

If I were (and I've been thinking about it, actually) going to buy a starter AR15, I'd probably go with an "A2", learn how to shoot it, and add bells and whistles later.

Do you know that you can own EVERY version, especially if you don't buy the Colt, (the pins don't fit) just by buying different upper receiver groups as you can afford it? I'd get a really good lower (I like the Armalite, myself, but maybe that's because I can drive to Geneseo to say hi! if it doesn't work out) In fact, I like the people at Armalite. I guarantee if you have a problem they'll see that you are happy with their service.

So now they are giving people M-4s?Hmmmmmmm.When you used the A1,was it a bad rifle?Oh,is the A2 still the most issued rifles though?
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

Alright everybody
Sorry to all I offeneded. Oh, by the way, we have a USP .45 tactical at the store. The one with the threaded barrel. It is NIB, and comes with carrying case.

Just so you know, I'm definitely not a "preteen". I had a moustache when I was 11. Just so you know. Also the big word is 13 is TEEN. Just so you know.

Yes, they are issuing M-4s. Not everyone who is supposed to get them has them, yet. I never thought the M16A1 was a "bad" rifle, despite the legend that went around the army that it was. It had a lighter barrel than the A2 currently has, it had full-auto capability, it was harder to adjust the sights and it was shorter, especially in the butt-stock.

Magazines were a problem at the time. Some mags actually needed to be pulled back on the toe to feed reliably, but on the same rifle, good magazines would function fine.

Last night I got a new Armalite catalog, which has pictures of an AR member, Russ Taylor, in it. I really like their products, especially the AR180. If I had the money, I'd probably get their M15A2 flat-top in the carbine version, myself.

As far as issued M4/M16, there is no standard configuration. Just about anything goes out here in Iraq.

I still prefer the Colt Delta H-Bar, from personal experience while being in military, as well as the A-1 model, I like Colt's product be it a Rifle or Pistol, and I know this is just my OPINION, and I'm not wanting to draw flames.

Big mistake not to go to college. Join Army , get help with further education. Todays military encourages education and there is more to it than "shoot and scoot" If you want that piece of junk AR 15, get it. From your comments, it sounds like u have your mind made up and just wanted someone to reinforce what you think.

Since when are the Armalite AR-15s junk?Lots of people seem to like them.I don't want to go to collage because I don't like school.Thats why.Simple.Oh,whats "shoot and scoot"?
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

I think he meant all AR15 variants in general are junk, not just the Armalite (which tend to be some of the better junk, all AR's being junk that is).
Yeah... they are sort of junk... a lot of money for what your getting. Accessories are even more over priced. It sure does have it's flaws as well.. it shits where it eats, the multi spline rotary bolt is no friend of debris, and the over head/bolt gas tube leave lots of room for base over bolt malfunctions that can't happen in other designs.... but we really don't want to get into this whole long song and dance again.

[ 08-22-2003, 02:03: Message edited by: cas ]

But why then do so many people have them then?
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

Tyler,

This is only my opinion, however it is based on 51 years of life, over 35 years playing with firearms, and over 18 years in service.

Some people cannot be satisfied, period. Some people think a Ford (Chevy, take your pick) is THE ONLY VEHICLE TO OWN, yadda, yadda, yadda.

My very first introduction was to a M-16 (AR-15) style of weapon was a GM Hydramatic produced M-16E1 in 1970. It was a fine weapon. I managed to do well with it in qualification and every other training exercise I was involved in.

Some people just plain do not like the Stoner design. However, does it work? Yes. Does it do what it was designed for? Yes. Is it reliable enough for military applications? Yes. Will some people gripe, piss, and moan regardless of its attributes? Of course! There is no design, and i mean none, that is 100% reliable in all circumstances. Anyone that says different is a twit.

If a guy doesn't like 'em, that's his perogative. But, be advised, no military, and I mean "none," has ever fielded a weapon that it's soldiers could not be successful with. Were there better design's? Surely. Was that particular weapon good enough to do it's job if the soldier did his? Surely.

If some guys don't like the Stoner designed weapons, fine. Do they work? Sure. Do I have enough faith to take one into battle, depend on it to save my life, or the lives of my fellow soldiers. In a heart beat.

Regards,

Eric

Me thinks you guys should listen to Eric more.Eric,do you have any experiance with the Trijicon ACOG TAO1 sight?
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

[ 08-22-2003, 06:27: Message edited by: Jay Gorski ]

It has flaws is all... like everything does. It just has odd ones that make you scratch your head.

Like the forward assist... Its something they added to the gun to help deal with a probblem, rather than fix the problem itself.

Tyler,

I've seen the ACOG's, but never used one. I've been told by those that have used them (and these were Ranger dudes, their equipment takes a beating)that they are swell. Not cheap though if you have to buy your own.

I've used 4x with BDC a lot and found that it works fine for most field use. I've also used a 3x9 with a 50mm obj as it's good for observation as well as shooting.

Other than that, can't help much.

Regards,

Eric

I give the fuck up on this subject, thanks but no thanks This shit is too long winded, and if nobody has any respect for Colt, Armalite, or Eugene Stoner, then this friggin' subject needs to end. I KNOW this'll draw heat but fuck it, who cares, I saw enough action with an M-16 and I don't want to see it again, but this shit is too strung out, wait until you get older son, then you'll be able to make up your mind, 'til then listen to Eric and your Dad, OUT!!!!

[ 08-24-2003, 10:17: Message edited by: Crazy Cledus ]

Giving up on this thread? Finished? Again? Thrid time.

Cas, Well don't ya think it's as old as the proverbial "crusty underwear"? Heh-Heh

Colt does make the M4 for the civilian community the Model 6400C-M4, the collas. stock is fixed in the open position and the flash hider is fixed, and is semi-auto. other than that it is the same as our Military M4.

As for pistols the HK USP used by Seals is one of the best as well as SpringField Arms Tactical pistols which are used by FBI Hostage Rescue Teams. The everpopular Sig Sauer is also used by Seals and is my favorte the P220 in 45 CAL.

Wow, this thread has caused some serious debate. Hey Tyler, every 13 year old male wants to be in the military. Almost all 13 year olds dont like school. Trust me, i went through it. Also, you will change your mind in about 2 weeks. You already changed your mind, by going from the M4 to the AR-15. It will be different in a week or two. You definitely should go to college. If you dont, then you will make like 50% less than someone who graduates college. When you start high-school, just work hard. Play sports. If you do well enough than you can go to a military academy and get a great education.

NH_Hunter