FAREWELL MA DUCE! WELCOME LW50MG!

21 December 2009, 07:38

quote:
http://defense-update.com/news.../news1505_lw05mg.htm

General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products (GDATP) received a $9 million U.S. Army contract to develop a lightweight .50 Caliber (12.7mm) machine gun (LW50MG) weapon system. The new lightweight weapon will end the 75 years era dominated by the Browning M2HB heavy machine gun (nicknamed 'Ma Duce') crew served weapon, used for vehicle, ship, aircraft and portable applications. The new weapon is different from the XM312 which was previously evaluated by the Army. It is significantly lighter and has less recoil than the current M2HB.

The new machine gun is expected to weigh about 53 pounds (with ground mount system) - 75 pounds less than a combat-ready 'Ma Duce' (128 lbs). The LW50MG has 70 percent less recoil, which enables Soldiers to use weapon magnification sights they can put their eyes on, which was unthinkable and potentially painful, with the M2. Therefore, the new weapon is expected to be more accurate and lethal in combat.

The newcrew served weapon will be produced at the company's Saco facility. Once the LW50MG is deployed, all vehicles that mount the M2 will be able to mount the new system. Tests have been successfully conducted mounting the system to the Stryker Combat Vehicle and the Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station (CROWS). "Our Lightweight .50 Caliber machine gun represents a new generation of weapon systems," said Robert Cavoretto, senior program manager at GDATP.

The Army has recently issued a requirement for a lightweight .50 caliber machine gun. The Special Operations Command (SOCOM) also has a vehicle requirement for a lightweight/ low recoil weapon, but is also looking to expand use of the weapon for dismounted units. The LW50MG will not replace all M2HBs in service, but will offer a potential alternative to satisfy the needs of those three services in one package. The new weapon is expected to be ready for fielding by the end of Fiscal Year 2012, or sooner based on Army funding priorities. Light units, such as the 82nd Airborne Division, the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) and SOCOM forces are likely to be first to receive the LW50MG.

21 December 2009, 08:09

Rub Line

Interesting. Barrel looks like a 1919 barrel, pretty skinny for a 50 cal automatic. I guess I never considered the ma'duce to have excessive recoil either,(when mounted on a tripod). I'm sure the new weapon is great, but I hardly consider the M2 to be broken, heavy as it is.

23 December 2009, 22:01

buckeyeshooter

Hard to replace a battle proven piece of history. The deuce is still tops in my book.

23 December 2009, 22:36

mstarling

We'll see how this one holds up in real life. There are lots of M2s around, and I doubt that we'll forget how to make them if the new fella is found to have weaknesses!

Them's mighty damn big shoes to fill!

24 December 2009, 00:24

homebrewer

Somethin' tells me it just ain't gonna hold up. Kids is gonna die because of this thing...

24 December 2009, 05:59

anukpuk

must have a carbon fiber bbl, does it use the same cartridge?

25 December 2009, 04:29

enfieldspares

quote:
Somethin' tells me it just ain't gonna hold up. Kids is gonna die because of this thing..

That rear 'scope device looks as if it'll get bent or knocked pretty quickly!

US machine gun design is pretty rubbish if the M60 is anything to go by that's for sure!

And how exactly do you change zero on optical sights mounted on the rear of the gun when you change barrels?

Same problem as the M60 not having the ability to zero each individual barrel on the foresight?

Either the No 2 has got to remember and apply the correct zero when the barrel is changed...or you end up with a "one size fits all barrel changes" zero.

Which rather negates the point of having an optical sight in the first place?

27 December 2009, 20:15

Eric

We still have plenty of "Ma Duces" made by AC Spark Plug and other contractors during WW II. The majority of the problem is stupid soldiers that won't learn their weapon and properly adjust the head space and timing.

This is typical of the Army of today. Instead of training soldiers correctly, they would rather spend money for another "disposable" weapons system.

Eric

COB Adder, Iraq

27 December 2009, 21:33

buckshot

quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
We still have plenty of "Ma Duces" made by AC Spark Plug and other contractors during WW II. The majority of the problem is stupid soldiers that won't learn their weapon and properly adjust the head space and timing.

This is typical of the Army of today. Instead of training soldiers correctly, they would rather spend money for another "disposable" weapons system.

Eric

COB Adder, Iraq

You are 100% correct. There is a report out there with my name on it stating exactly that (except for the disposable part). I also blasted them for being too stingy with ammo and excessively dependent upon video training substitutes. Yeah, nothing like showing kids what a blown up weapon could do before actually conducting range training! Anyway, I concluded that there was nothing wrong with a weapon system that had a proven track record dating back 75 years and that the easy fix was in fact internal and minimal in cost. For my efforts I was presented with another training video for all to see and sent back to work.

P.S. I had people who were using 90wt gear lube to lubricate their M2 as well as others who would use nothing as it made for easy cleaning after convoy ops. 66% of our weapon "problems" were due to maintenance, or lack thereof as it were.
P.S.S. Do you remember the withdrawal of older lots of Mk19 ammunition? Same shit, different story...

27 December 2009, 21:56

homebrewer

Looking at it again, I see the top cover looks cheaply made, too...

01 January 2010, 14:28

impingement

quote:
P.S. I had people who were using 90wt gear lube to lubricate their M2 as well as others who would use nothing as it made for easy cleaning after convoy ops. 66% of our weapon "problems" were due to maintenance, or lack thereof as it were.

I agree, Don't forget the ever popular patch stuck down the muzzle to keep the road dust out. The only thing worse than poor maintenance and training was the occasional individual that could F...up an anvil with a rubber mallet. There is just no way to allow for troops of that caliber. The phrase "Preventative Maintenance Checks and Services" (PMCS) quickly changed to "Poorly Maintained Crappy Stuff" when the unit's leadership was more worried about making life easy and looking good than being prepared to actually perform their mission. Silly me, I thought they actually wrote those manuals to help us learn!

02 January 2010, 15:44

tendrams

quote:
It is significantly lighter and has less recoil than the current M2HB.

Well ain't that just a miracle of physics!

08 January 2010, 07:59

Matt Norman

There were those who resisted the replacement of the single shot trapdoors for the 'wasteful' '03 Springfields. And the USMC resisted the conversion to the MI Garands into the early WWII years. Then came the M-14's, and the various M-16's (back in the mid 1960's).

I'm an Army Dad and my son is at the pointy end of the spear. WIA for that matter (2003). Not all changes are good but I'm glad that they are at least attempting to equip and fight the next war, not the last one.

I'm glad he's not packing a '03-A3. And I recall him saying headspacing a Ma-Deuce is a pain. Hopefully they have addressed that.

And he's heard a number of round fired in anger and made his bones.

08 January 2010, 09:33

crbutler

Isn't the reason behind the variable headspace on the M2HB more to deal with ammo inconsistencies and having play in the mechanism for overall optimal reliability in the weapon system?

I worry that we will have the new MG which will have problems, and the Army will refuse to admit it. Look how long it took and how many men were killed before they got the M16 to work as well as it does? Even the M1903 had a bunch of issues (rod bayonet?) Not even considering the M60. If the cartridge has not made a change, I'm not sure the weapon changing will come up with any real improvement. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not sure.

I am a bit suspicious about anything that our politically invested high command comes up with. The XM25 looks like a boondoggle, the replacement of a 50 mg to make it lighter, when it seems that we need to make the standard infantry weapon a better performer (a better performer with FMJ than a .223 can't be hard to come up with, although I will admit it all depends on what we are looking for) and whoever decided a 9X19 should replace the 1911 was a disgrace- everyone admits that it was a decision made for political reasons.

08 January 2010, 17:53

<Andrew cempa>

Every M2 gunner and a-gunner should know each barrel and it's respective headspace setting. Timing is done as a matter of pre-fire checks, then left alone until major maintenance is required. A solid NCO taught our whole company (c 1983) how to sort barrels among guns so that each gun had barrels that were as identical in HS as possible, then even timing was quite a moot point once you set it for your barrel(s) Of course, marking barrels to guns was a given.

Ref. change of zero-remember the MG is an area weapon, fired with "burst on target" control methods. The optic is more for observing impact than sniping a turd, but in SS mode, an optic is very nice!

The M2HB will be around in our units for a long time to come. I recently saw an improved carrier that eliminated manual HS adjustments for the ol' gal as well.

09 January 2010, 02:42

brad may

Saw a Thia merc one night open up with a 50 that wasn't pinned to the mount on an ACAV. Abought beat him to death when it came unglued. He couldn't let go and it kept beating him in the chest. Broke all his ribs but he lived, don't know how.

09 January 2010, 03:40

Dark Continent

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
whoever decided a 9X19 should replace the 1911 was a disgrace- everyone admits that it was a decision made for political reasons.

My thoughts exactly and just what this reminds me of. Sounds like nothing more than a boondoggle for GD at taxpayer expense.

13 January 2010, 21:57

homebrewer

Matt Norman says

quote:
I'm an Army Dad and my son is at the pointy end of the spear.

May God protect him and bring him home soon, safe and sound...

17 January 2010, 23:23

Rodney H.{500Jeffery}

From the picture the LW50MG appears to be lightly constructed, guess thats the point. My concerns are how well is it going to take the heat of continued, steady use in a dirty environment. Is it built tough enough to be dropped from the side of a vehicle and still be useable. The M2 is/was considered the heavy machine gun and used in more applications than I can think of at the moment. As mentioned in the article above the military is looking at a lighter alternative for light forces or maybe they should have said non-mechanized units. The M2HBMG will be a tough one to fully replace.
Rodney.