Can someone explain the differences between a pre-ban upper and a post-ban upper (federal definition) in regards to the civilian AR-15?

I know that the ban dates to 1994, hence the demarcation.

However, does an upper have to have fewer than a certain number of 'evil' features to be a 'post-ban'? What is that number? 2? 3?

IIRC, the relevant 'evil features' are pistol grip that extends below the stock, bayonet lug, and flash suppressor (how does that differ substantially from a muzzle brake)?

TIA,
George

[ 04-24-2003, 00:30: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

In and of itself... nothing. You can still manufacture preban STYLE uppers. When you attach a pre ban STYLE upper to a post ban lower is where the legal trouble comes in.

A Pre-ban upper with have one or both:
A. Flash hider
B. Bayonet lug/stud.

Both are "evil features". Since the AR has the ability to take high cap mags, and has a pistol grip, either of those two items would make "3 evil features" and thus a no-no (on a post ban lower)

Thanks, cas.

How does ATF distinguish between flash hiders and muzzle brakes (or does it)?

If one replaces an 'evil' flash hider with a 'benign' muzzle brake, would that make it okay to attach to a post-ban lower?

Would the muzzle brake have to be 'permanently affixed'?

George

A threaded muzzle is also an evil feature, so you could replace a flash hider with a muzzlebrake and still have too many evil features. If you remove the flash hider and replace it with a permanently attached brake and chop off the bayonet lug, then you have a post ban legal upper. Permanently attached means welded or at least silver soldered on....in other words, no glue, adhesive or locktight is acceptable.

Thanks... I knew there was something I was forgetting but I was drawing a blank.

What the ATFE uses to determine between a flash hider and a muzzle break is science, voo-doo and which way the wind is blowing I think.

There's some fancy-schmancey high tech test they use I believe.

Well DAMN!
I thought I'd Crazy glue a bayonet lug on my AR-10T and make it more dangerous.
You suppose I could glue a bayonet lug or even silver soldier it to the recoil spring tube under the butt. Maybe throw in a flash suppressor for good measure.
Jim

Jim

I wasn't trying to be funny, and I know what I'm talking about! Believe it or not, some people have used adhesives or thread lockers like JB Weld or red locktite to "permanently" attach a flash hider to a threaded pre ban barrel to try to make it post ban legal.....BATF says it must be silver soldered at the minimum.

[ 04-24-2003, 16:47: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

Another thing to remember, in order to qualify as a "Pre-ban" it had to be shipped from the factory as a complete rifle. If it came as parts, then it is not a "Pre-ban."

Correct me if I am wrong.

Yep... A lower had to be asembled with an upper with the 3 or more evil features prior to the AWB to make it a legal "pre-ban". A lower, just having been manufactured before the AWB is not enough.

Any legal gun had to have the "evil features" prior to the AWB. Example.. you can't add a folding stock and a flash hidder to a Mini 14 just cause it was made before the ban. If it didn't have them then, it can't have them now.

[ 04-25-2003, 04:38: Message edited by: cas ]

Big 17

In essence you are correct, a bare receiver, made before the cutoff date, cannot legally be assembled in pre ban configuration ......however, the receiver didn't technically have to be assembled as part of a complete rifle, but it did have to be a part of a complete set of parts.

In other words, if a receiver was included in a complete parts set (everything there to build a rifle)on the cutoff date, it was legally considered pre ban, even if the parts were not assembled. If the receiver was not part of a complete set.....it is not legally pre ban even though it was actually made before the cutoff date.

The problem lies in the fact that there were quite a number of bare receivers made before the cutoff date that aren't legally pre ban.....the only way to determine if the receiver is legally a pre ban is to contact the manufacturer and have them run the serial number to see how it left the factory.....if it left the factory as part of a rifle or in a complete parts set......then it is legally pre ban......however, some receivers that were made before the cutoff date and left the factory as bare receivers can still be legal pre bans if they were assembled by someone after the left the factory, but before the cutoff date....in this case, the factory can't tell you if they are legally pre ban or not!

Bottom line, if it wasn't assembled with all the evil features, or part of a complete parts set on the day the ban took effect......it can never legally be assembled in pre ban configuration!

Stupid law, wouldn't you say?

This is a great example of why our courts and attorneys are so busy.

muck