I was reading Hacksawtom's thread on the military rifle matches down his way, and we have something very similar here. I've pretty much gotten out of the surplus stuff, but always have a soft spot for it and need to find an example I can campaign.

In my personal experience, the four most accurate surplus bolt guns I have personally owned and loaded for are, in order:

1. Finnish Sako-built Model 39 Mosin Nagant, 7.62 X54R.
2. British No 4 Mk. 2 Enfield, built at Fazakerly, if I remember right (possible post-war rebuild). It's that wonderful adjustable aperture rear sight that did it. .303 British
3. Carl Gustaf Model 96 Swedish Mauser, stock disk reflecting virtually new, unworn bore, 6.5X55.
4. Swiss Schmidt-Rubin K-31, early 1940s. Probably should have been the most accurate, especially with the awesome issue trigger, but I never really worked up best loads. 7.5X55 Swiss.

Not on my list, but surprisingly accurate was a somewhat unusual early Carcano 91 Fusile -- the long-barreled rifle version rarely encountered. Loaded with the Hornady .268 diameter bullet, this little sweetheart wanted to shoot, as did the Type 38 Arisaka I had. There's something magical about the 6.5s.

I would include a Springfield, but I have honestly never worked with one in original as-issued configuration as they have always been relatively expensive.

I have never had finest accuracy from any of the Mauser 98s I have shot -- good accuracy, yes, but match accuracy no. Perhaps it is the triggers. Of the non-Finn Mosins, best accuracy was from one of those Post WWII M91/59 carbines with the incredibly stout barrel.

Love to hear other surplus shooters' findings.

I have a 1905 Ross chambered to 303, for no reason I slid a .300” brass rod down the barrel and let it go, when it hit the bolt face, the bolt flew open. I took the rifle to the range and was surprised at the accuracy. There is nothing I can turn the rifle into and have nothing to gain or prove by continuing to shoot it. The solid hit on the bolt face by the brass rod means nothing, but, I have too many rifles to shoot that are less distracting when pulling the trigger

F. Guffey.

Guffey, what would such a rifle be worth these days?


I once owned one of the Springfield Palma Rifles that were Pope barreled with DST's from the 1928, iiirc, matches. The Rules Committee met after the match and banned such rule beaters shortly thereafter.

I would think the last ones Ruger made would be very accurate as well.

I believe there is a old saying.

The British made a fighting rifle

The Germans a sporting rifle

The Americans a target rifle.

Idaho Sharpshooter, I purchased the rifle with a 1905 Remington Auto loader complete with an arsenal stamp on the stock, the 1905 Ross was thrown in as an after thought. The Ross cost me $70.00. It as ugly now as it was when I purchased it. I have been informed the arsenal stamp has never been seen before: therefore it is a fake?

I can not see the Ross value going up, the owner used it up to the week before I purchased it.

F. Guffey

Mr. Guffey, there is some discussion of Ross rifles at the British militaria forums at Yuku, if you care to Google.
Well, stumbling into a small gun shop in my new hometown, I spied a number of likely suspects, but came away with a used-but-not-abused Enfield No. 4 Mk. I, based primarily on the seemingly new/unfired two-groove barrel. It's a matching early 1942 example from the arsenal at Maltby, near Liverpool, and I am expecting some pleasant surprises from this old warrior.

I went through a surplus rifle phase awhile back and shot a lot of them. Mostly 50 yards offhand, load the magazine, and aimed fast fire (not exactly rapid fire as the range here requires about 5 seconds between shots). Besides reasonable accuracy I was big on how it handled and cycled. I say 'reasonable' accuracy as my eyesight is such that I can't focus iron sights very well.

Had one rifle that was more accurate than the rest: a 98 Mauser that the Israelis had rebarreled to 308. On this one the exterior showed a lot of wear but the bore was in good shape.

A 03A3 Springfield was quite accurate (and cycled/handled well) but I had to replace the front sight blade with a thicker one that I could get a better sight picture with.

Went through a half-dozen Turk Mausers and found one that shot very well. As with a lot of rifles of that era I found they shot very high at the shorter ranges, so I replaced several front sights with taller blades (96 Swede Mauser blades usually) that I would file down until I was POA at 50-100 yards.

As for 'most accurate', I think you'll find it's a matter of what feels good in your hands and happens to shoot good. While I hold the Finn M-39's in high regard I went through a couple of them and could just never bond with any of them.

The Norwegian Krag-Jørgensen m/1894

Years ago in Winnipeg, there was a gunsmith named Jennings who converted the Ross to left-handed. He had great faith in their accuracy. I wish I had bought one.

Guffey,

I would be interested in buying that Ross from you if we can agree on price.

thanks for considering my offer,

Rich

Check your PM's.

In my relatively limited experience with surplus bolt actions, I'd have to choose the 96 Swede or the Springfield. I can routinely get 1 1/2 MOA (I would say 1 MOA but I haven't shot them in a while and my memory might "improve" the groups)or better from several Swedes I own and could probably do better with handloads. In addition, all the Swedes I've handled have a superb 2 stage trigger.

I haven't shot an original Springfield in a while, but with a good barrel I think they could do 1 1/2 MOA easily.

I know both of those are more accurate, as a general observation, than an Enfield and a 98 Mauser. I've never shot a Moisin Nagant so really can't say.

Personally if I was choosing one, out of the box, so to speak, as a match rifle, then the Swede would win it hands down, mostly because of the trigger, and secondarily because I bought thousands of rounds of 6.5x55 that I will probably never shoot a few years back.

With nearly new bores they all seem to shoot about the same for me. I would qualify that though.
The receiver sighted rifles and rifles with a good flat top blade and U notch are much easier to shoot.

Those rifles include
1. The Swedish Mauser due to the excellent notch and flat topped front blade

2. 1903-A3 Springfield

I have shot near new Persian Mausers that were nearly that good but the sights just did not provide the best results.

3. One other Mauser that did measure up was a mint new 1895 Chilean Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
With nearly new bores they all seem to shoot about the same for me. I would qualify that though.

The receiver sighted rifles and rifles with a good flat top blade and U notch are much easier to shoot.

I'll second that opinion as a shooter, not a match shooter. My best of my lot was a good condition Pattern 14 Enfield made by ERA. My favorite sight picture of all the military rifles I blew through and wish I still had.

I have quite a few different Mil-surps in the vault and the one I use for the matches is a Remington 03A3....two groove. Wins quite a few....


.

Jtex, I am not sure if that Kimber I sold you applies to this thread but they sure as hell are accurate! Like you though I have several milsurps in the safe. My two favorites and accurate are either the 03 or a 1917 Remington. I have an a3 that holds it own as well. I am not even counting all the Garands etc as am only looking at bolt guns. I would have to say that it is a close race between most of the bolt guns. that said I have put a lot of time and work into them to tweak them to where they are that good.

I don't think the Kimber counts.......

Swiss K-31s are known for accuracy and I do have a couple, I just haven't done much work with either yet.....

The rifle at our club that gives me the most competition is an Enfield No4 Mark I, ( I believe that is right ) Fazakerly that was unfired until I traded it off to another member that shoots the hell out of it......

My most accurate milsurp is a Lee Enfield Mk IV. The 03-A3 I had wasn't great, nor are the 03's I currently have. I wonder if it's the sights, or shot out barrels on those CMP returns? The Garands were all about 4" guns.

Shot a friend's Moisin-Nagant and was getting MOA groups with Wolf bulk ammo, so I bought one. Not terrible, but about 2 MOA groups with the surplus I've put through it so far. I'm hopeful that if I load for it it'll do better.

the most accurate out of the box "as-issued" service rifle in my mind is unquestionably one of the variants of the Swede Mauser.

My personal example is a 1943 Vintage Husqvarna "M38" which is still an M96 cock-on-closing Mauser action.

My personal rifle is one with mixed numbers because at some point the bolt was replaced, it also has an essentially new barrel on it.

I have a 4x intermediate eye relief scope on it as a nod to my >50year old eyes.

Frankly the only rifles I own that are consistently more accurate than my Swede are both Remington 700's that wear heavy barrels, my 700VSSF in 223rem which is a stunning out of box performer, and an R700 in 7mmMag that wears a heavy Hart barrel in a Palma profile... I've never had anyone demonstrate a more accurate MILITARY bolt gun in my presence

Interesting question.

My most accurate "as used in action" military rifle is my Finnish Model 28/30 Moisin, with its Russian action and SAKO barrel. Though it is easily the ugliest rifle I own (looks as if it was used to help pry a T-34 out of a Berlin basement), and has ugly, primitive open sights.
With decent handloads it will shoot 5-shot groups of 1 MOA or slightly better at 100 yards. I have done that with it many times, so I know it is no fluke.

I had a virtually brand new, unissued M38 Swede which I had expected great things of, but it turned to be about a 2-3 MOA rifle, so I sold it. Guess I drew the short straw the day I bought it. I know that model rifles are generally better than that.

My second most accurate unaltered mil-surp was a Remington '03/A3 Springfield bought through DCM for $14.50 delivered to my home in 1963 or '64. It was a very dependable 1.25-1.5 MOA rifle with handloads.

The third one I'll bother to mention of my accurate ones was a No.4 Mk1* built at Long Branch in 7.62 NATO for the Canadian Army (when there was such a thing...now the Canadian Army, Navy, & Air force are all part of some politically correct mish-mash called "Canadian Forces". The politicians all loved that dysfunctional change, but the troops hated it. The change destroyed a lot of unit traditions and healthy interservice competition to make themselves the very best). It would hold the center bull at distances from 100 to 1,000 yards in competition, using military ball ammo issued on the firing line.

1903 Springfield National Match rifles as used by the USMC from WW I through VietNam. All are sub MOA rifles with the proper ammo.

Another Mauser with a good reputation for accuracy is the model 98/29 Persian Long Rifle in 8mm. Long rifle as it has a 29" barrel and made at the BRNO factory in Czechoslavakia during the 1930s.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I believe there is a old saying.

The British made a fighting rifle

The Germans a sporting rifle

The Americans a target rifle.

Must be a pre WWII saying...

I'm thinking once the Garand came along, it pretty much takes the cake in all three of these categories, at least as far as Mil-
surp rifles go

And to avoid a shitstorm argument, comparing the arms of today, I suppose the three would be a FAL, AR, and AK..

All of which had their place and purpose in time.

I run NM MILSURPS, a long range shooting club. We don't waist our time shooting 100 yards which proves nothing. We shoot 500 yards and beyond with open sights as our forefathers were taught to do.
The rifle that wins the matches more times than not are the 96/11 and 1911 Swiss Schmidt Ruben rifles. And my members shoot just about every type of military bolt action rifle out there.
The quality of the rifles and their bores teamed with GP-11 ammo or quality reloads just cannot be questioned.
I have a very large collection of rifles and when it comes down to the brass tacks, I'll grab my 1911 long rifle every time. It has never left me down at any range out too 1,000 yards.
They have the best and fastest packet reload of rounds ever designed. Far faster than a Mauser or Manlicher stripper or charger clip. They also require very little force to strip and very little chance of jamming the rounds or leaving a pound of flesh behind.
The barrel free floats. The action is very fast to cycle. So is the safety.
The sights are very easy to pick up and well made. Doping the wind to hold off rather than adjusting the rear sight was easier to do than you'd think. The triggers have to be felt to be believed.
The 7.5 Swiss cartridge caused the whole world to stand up and take notice. Everyone did and many of the cartridges are so close to the 7.5 Swiss it is not funny. We copied it with the 7.62x51mm. The two are so close by ballistics you can swap loads.
They truly are a rifleman's rifle. Made when quality was national pride.

Great post rob, well said. It's a long way but if I ever get that way I'd like to see your range afire with some Swiss rifles, maybe mine.Best

I recently picked up an all original matching No4Mk2 303 with an AJ Parker target sight, it is as good as a scope.
It's my first Enfield with that type of sight, it sure works, old technology works and looks good on the rifle too.
I have had lots of accurate military rifles, I tend to favor the Enfield.

03A3 Springfield; doesn't matter if the Finnish 39s are more "accurate"; their sights are much harder to use. So, over all, the 03A3 will win with the majority of shooters. And I have several of both. Mausers? not usually. Even a NM 03, whilst very accurate, will lose due to the open sights on them for all but the very sharp sighted people. I love the Enfields, but they are hard to make accurate due to the stocks. Actually, the 1917 Enfield is a great shooter, all given excellent barrel condition of course; you can't judge a shot out barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:
The rifle that wins the matches more times than not are the 96/11 and 1911 Swiss Schmidt Ruben rifles.

That fact that those rifles weigh ten pounds and have a very long sight radius might have a little to do with it.

I've had Swede 6.5x55's for more years than I care to recall and shot one for several years in our unaltered millitary bolt rifle matches.

A few years ago, after reading alot about their accuracy, I bought a couple of nice Swiss K-31's.

I scoped one with a older Weaver El Paso 4x in a St. Marie no drill mount and with the load below off bags at 100 yds. my best five round group thus far is .742......I'm sure a steadier hand and younger eyes could have done considerably better.

CCI BR-2 primers....Sierra #2140 165 gr. HPBT....43.5 grs. Varget.

I own several millitary bolt rifles but my Swedes and K-31's are the most accurate.

Ike

Hi Bill,

Terry (Backspin) from Alaska...
I enjoy your opinions.

I am looking for a military 6.5 Swede Mauser, later manufacture the better. Any ideas where I might best look to buy one?
Thanks,

I've shot a LOT of military rifles, both as a military shooter in two countries, and as a segment of my rifle shooting hobby.

Among others, I have owned and shot the M95 Austro-Hungarian, the M95M German version of the same Austro-Hungarian rifle, the M94 Swedish carbine, both '88 and '98 Mausers (and the Siamese Mauser), '03 & 03A3 Springfields, '03 Greek M/S, 1905 & 1907 Rosses, P-14 & P-17, K-31 Schmidt-Rubin, Model 28/30 Finnish Moisin Nagant, Long Lee Enfield and (Short) Magazine Lee-Enfields (including a No. 4 Mk1* and a a No.4 Mk2 both made in.308 NATO for the Canadian Defense force rifle teams, French M36, M-1 Garand, M-1 Carbine M-14, FN-FAL, M-16, AR-180, Ruger AC556 in all four versions (yes these were issue military for a couple of South American nations), and probably more which don't leap to mind at this moment.

Most accurate for short and medium ranges (up through 700 yards) with no tweaks at all I guess I'd have to pick the FN-FAL by a slight margin over the P-14.

For long range, with no tweaks there is no doubt it would be a No. 4 Mk.2 Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield , which gives about half the vertical deviation of solid frame 1-piece stocked guns. All of this of course with issue military ball ammo and issue sights.

Most accurate with a wee tweak (lightening the trigger pull weight) would have to be, of all things, the French MAS 36 in 7.5x54 by a Wide Margin!!

Your experience may vary, but that has been mine.

(I have never shot either a German G-43 or German/French/Spanish G-3, nor Soviet Tokarev M-40 for accuracy testing, so can't say they are less or more accurate than anything else.