I read about this years ago in a Gun digest[1968]? but cant find it now ! [the digest itself,thrown out ?].But saw a magazine article in a fairly recent U.S shooting mag, but just didnt get around to buying it ! You have to admit ,this was a Brilliant!!!!!! device for turning a Springfield bolt action into a semi auto rifle !!!!!!!!!!an example of American ingenuity!!!!!!!! pity the majority were destroyed by Burning them !!! do any still exist ? maybe in some museum ? considering where i live semi autos are banned !!!!!!!! and yet hunters in the former Soviet Union can, and still hunt with semi autos !!! makes you wonder ?! and i live in a ''FREE ''country Australia !

Several issues ago American Rifleman magazine did an article on the Pedersen Device. It was interesting and informative and had enough pics to keep my short attention span occupied.

I've seen one of those devices in a private collection here in Finland. It was in mint condition (and no, not a fake), whereas most of those maybe a couple of dozen that were saved have marks from the burning operation. I can't imagine how much one should pay to have one and the owner didn't tell me

Although the pedersons were destroyed, a large number of Springfields were cut for the pederson device. They are the 03-Mark I Springfield. The CMP had a few at Camp Perry this past summer and I was lucky enough to get one before they ran out. Not very rare but still a neat piece of history.

I am going off memory here, but I think the Smithsonian and the NRA museum have Pedersons on display. I was not aware of any in private hands, I guess the value of that piece can only be estimated, an auction on that would be fun to watch, though.

I was always wondering why they have never been re-produced. I'm sure there are a lot of collectors that would like to have a copy.

I saw a Mark I Springfield in a movie a couple of weeks ago.
I always thought it was a classic example of making a bad idea work.

I heard from reliable person that alot of devices made it away from the torch. They were told to destroy them, nobody checked to see that it was done. Now if you were one torching them, wouldn't you have pocketed a few? Come on, tell the truth. That's what I've heard happen.

I missed buying a Springfield '03 w/ Pedersen Device at a gun show by about two minutes.

I think the device itself was missing, but the gun was adapted for it.

BTW I'm almost sure that the one I saw was made for the Mosin Nagant M91. They were produced for both Springfield and Mosins, you know, but none made it to the front. Springfields had the clip on the right side and threw empties to the left, Mosins vice versa.

It wasn't quite "American Ingenuity," the Pedersen Device was a French idea. It was based on their new "strategy" of "walking fire" in which whole squads or companies would be armed with fully automatic weapons and cross No Man's Land firing them at the Germans. From what I have read, the device prooved unsuccessful, because troops who were given them tended to get their rifle actions dirty, or even lose their original rifle bolts, or lose the Pedersen Device on the battle fields. It would be nice to have as a piece of history, but I don't know if I would want to have been issued that back in WWI. And think of this too... the guys had to carry ammo for both the '03, and the Pedersen, plus their 60lb packs.

Well, the Peterson device was built for trench warfare....... WWI was the end of that and the P Device. IMHO, the cutout in the 03 doesn't do anything for me.....you can still order them from CMP. Personally, I like the real deal. Regards, Rick.

quote:

Originally posted by Eduardo Morales:
It wasn't quite "American Ingenuity," the Pedersen Device was a French idea. It was based on their new "strategy" of "walking fire" in which whole squads or companies would be armed with fully automatic weapons and cross No Man's Land firing them at the Germans. From what I have read, the device prooved unsuccessful, because troops who were given them tended to get their rifle actions dirty, or even lose their original rifle bolts, or lose the Pedersen Device on the battle fields. It would be nice to have as a piece of history, but I don't know if I would want to have been issued that back in WWI. And think of this too... the guys had to carry ammo for both the '03, and the Pedersen, plus their 60lb packs.

J.D. Pedersen was a very well known American gun designer, NOT French.

http://www.remingtonsociety.com/questions/Pedersen.htm

Springfields with the cutout for the Pederson Device are not all that rare.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Springfields with the cutout for the Pederson Device are not all that rare.

Last time I looked SARCO was selling the actions for less than $200.00.

FYJ... read my post again. I did not say it was a French designer. I said it was a French idea. They tried to outfit men with automatic weapons (a Lebel variant that was automatic), and it failed. So they convinced our military authorities to give it a try. Come on man. Read up on it: "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" by Ian V. Hogg, but I have read this in other sources as well. But to reiterate, I never said it was not an American inventor.

quote:

Originally posted by Eduardo Morales:
FYJ... read my post again. I did not say it was a French designer. I said it was a French idea. They tried to outfit men with automatic weapons (a Lebel variant that was automatic), and it failed. So they convinced our military authorities to give it a try. Come on man. Read up on it: "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" by Ian V. Hogg, but I have read this in other sources as well. But to reiterate, I never said it was not an American inventor.

Geez, aren’t we a bit sensitive?

I have read up on the Pedersen device. My reading was Col. Julian Hatchers article published in the June 1932 issue of Army Ordnance. Col. Hatcher, according to several other Springfield authorities, was the most knowledgeable person with the most first hand experience with both the device and its invention.

He states that Mr. Pedersen approached the War Department (they didn’t approach him) with a request to have them examine his device and let him demonstrate it for them.

You can read his article in Brophy’s book on the 1903 Springfield Rifle. Absolutely no mention of France suggesting this idea to our military.

I wasn’t aware that the French ever came up with any “ideas†concerning war other than surrendering.

The 7.65 MAS cartridge for the M1935A pistol was a copy of the earlier .30 Pederson cartridge according to 'Cartridges of the World'.

I saw a photo of a Pederson device mounted in a M1917 Enfield; the device referred to as the Mark II. Less than a dozen Enfields were so equipped. Somewhere else, I read that the Pederson cartridge was derived from a .32 cal French pistol cartridge. Anyone know about this?

Bud W

quote:

Originally posted by Bud W:
I saw a photo of a Pederson device mounted in a M1917 Enfield; the device referred to as the Mark II. Less than a dozen Enfields were so equipped. Somewhere else, I read that the Pederson cartridge was derived from a .32 cal French pistol cartridge. Anyone know about this?

Bud W

Hatcher, Brophy, Poyner and Clark have a whole bunch of info on the Pedersen devices in their books on Springfield 1903’s.

The device ended up being one of those “sounded like a good idea at the time†type of deals. Worked great, but just wasn’t real practical for an infantryman due to the added weight and bulk of the device and the ammo, not to mention the logistics and maintenance problems it would cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Eduardo Morales:
It wasn't quite "American Ingenuity," the Pedersen Device was a French idea. It was based on their new "strategy" of "walking fire" in which whole squads or companies would be armed with fully automatic weapons and cross No Man's Land firing them at the Germans. From what I have read, the device prooved unsuccessful, because troops who were given them tended to get their rifle actions dirty, or even lose their original rifle bolts, or lose the Pedersen Device on the battle fields. It would be nice to have as a piece of history, but I don't know if I would want to have been issued that back in WWI. And think of this too... the guys had to carry ammo for both the '03, and the Pedersen, plus their 60lb packs.

Well, since none were ever issued or used in combat, I fail to understand how a soldier could lose one in no-man's land! But it is an interesting story that a Pedersen Device was also built for the Moisin-Nagant! I doubt this. BTW, these "U.S. Pistols, Cal. 30, Model of 1918" were SEMI, NOT FULL, auto. And the round they used was very much like the 7.65 Long MAS French pistol cartridge...... Low recoil, short range, low energy.

According to Major General Julian Hatcher, the Pedersen device was the invention of a Mr. J.D. Pedersen, who, on his own initiative and NOT at the behest of the U.S. military, demonstrated the device to a few officials at the War Department in 1917. After that, the existence of the contraption was kept "so secret that up to the end of the war, its very existence was known to only a very few officers, one of whom was the present writer." It appears that the War Department officials were both surprised and somewhat amazed when they saw the thing, so I doubt that it was their idea!

Hatcher says nothing about such a gadget having ever been made for any rifle other than the M1903 Springfield, and in view of its extreme secrecy, I doubt the Moisin-Nagant story.

Apparently, as many as 500,000 of the devices were manufactured, called the "U.S. Pistol, Cal. 30, Model of 1918", in order to maintain secrecy. They were scheduled to be issued in spring 1919, but the war ended too soon for that to happen, so the devices were never issued. Instead, they were destroyed.

I doubt that the French had anything to do with this device, despite the fact that their "walking fire" tactic would have lent itself perfectly to the use of a short-range, high magazine capacity, low-recoil automatic arm of some sort.

For the full story, go to Chapter XV, The Pedersen Device, page 361, Hatcher's Notebook. Written by a man who was involved in the project......

All very interesting, as I know little about the Pederson device. But it raises a big question, at least to me. If more than 2/3ds of US forces in WW1 were equipped with the M1917, why were so many M1903s modified for the device and few - less than 2 dozen - Enfields so modified? The only answer I can come up with is that the Marines refused to carry the M1917, so perhaps it was the Marines that were slated to march across no-man's land carring their Springfields.

Bud W

The topic of the Pederson Device was touched on briefly on a recent airing on the history channel. The guy speaking to the issue made a point that I was unaware of - the J. D. Pedersen that invented the Pedersen device was the same as the James Pedersen that invented the Remington Model 51 pistol and the pump action shotgun that eventually evolved into what we know today as the Ithaca 37. He was a protégé of John Browning and did indeed work for the military, inventing a toggle-bolt rifle that eventually would lose out to the M-1 Garand in trials. Must have been quite the inventor! His model 51 was said to have been a favorite of General Patton who supposedly owned three of them. This gun was most unique in that not a single screw was used in its construction!

quote:

J. D. Pedersen

Is he not also the designer of the Remington Models 14 and 141 pump rifles, as well as the .276 Pedersen cartridge, for which both his andd Garand's contenders for the U.S. service semi-auto were originally chambered, before Douglas MacArthur issued his famous edict, "There is to be no change in the service rifle cartridge", which forced a re-engineering of the M1 so it could handle the .30/'06 round?

I only go by the book I have. If my information is incorrect then so be it. But the book I took it from is pretty widely distributed. Not a big deal though, if you got it from the source.

Next time your in Springfield Massachusetts go to the Springfield Armory Museum. There is a Pedersen Devise on display there. Actually this museum is a must see for any MilSurp buff or anyone interested in firearms actually.
I wish I knew how to insert a photo in this message, I have some great pictures from there. By the way the museum is part of the National Parks system and is free to visit.
John M, A Connecticut Yankee

Can't remember the show, but I watched the curator at the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum try to fire a Pederson device. Never did really run for him. The Pederson is almost the holy grail for .mil collectors.

quote:

But it is an interesting story that a Pedersen Device was also built for the Moisin-Nagant! I doubt this.

I'm not really sure if the device that I saw was in a Mosin, since the collection it was in was HUGE and I already had a kind of an overload of gun information by the time I came up to the device and have forgotten most details of the visit due to this, but here is also a reference that suggests the Pedersen device being made for Mosins also, though in very small numbers: http://www.answers.com/topic/pedersen-device

I try to check which one was the one I saw. If it really was a Mosin-version, it must be beyond all imagination in value!

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Can't remember the show, but I watched the curator at the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum try to fire a Pederson device. Never did really run for him. The Pederson is almost the holy grail for .mil collectors.

Just last week or so, Ron Emery on the Mail Call show, fired a Pederson device with original WWI ammo and he said before hand that the ammo might not work. It did, every shot he fired...at his target, the watermelons. It worked quite well.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Can't remember the show, but I watched the curator at the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum try to fire a Pederson device. Never did really run for him. The Pederson is almost the holy grail for .mil collectors.

Just last week or so, Ron Emery on the Mail Call show, fired a Pederson device with original WWI ammo and he said before hand that the ammo might not work. It did, every shot he fired...at his target, the watermelons. It worked quite well.

Joe

You wouldn't be referring to our beloved Gunny "R. Lee Ermey" would you???

Yup, one and the same.