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The Military Channel is currently runing a series of "Top Ten" things - fighter planes, bombers, etc and last evening I caught the "Top Ten Battle Rifles." Sometimes difficult to know what has and has not been discussed and posted here, even with a search, but I'll put them up and ask for your comments. Top Ten Battle Rifles: 1 - AK-47 2 - M16 3 - SMLE 4 - M1 Garand 5 - FN FAL 6 - 98K Mauser 7 - SIG Sauer AUG 8 - 03A3 Springfield 9 - STG44 10 - M14 Some data of interest: 17,000,000 SMLE's mfd and some 50,000,000 AK's built world wide. Some 70 odd counties used the FN FAL - officially. It was actually used against itself in the Falklands as the Brits and the Argentines were both armed with the FN FAL. And how anyone could rate the SMLE over the beloved K98 is just beyond me! The "SMELLY" is a good rifle but IMHO it ain't in a class with the Mauser! Usual caveat with the BS thrown in re 'the tumbling bullets from the M16 causing terrible flesh wounds' and the 'myriad dead GI's killed when the clip flew out of the M1 Garand and the enemy, knowing the 'twang!' signaled an empty rifle, then charged the poor soldier, killing him before he could reload.' All I can say here is that would be one 'fast on his feet' dude. If you ain't livin' on the edge, you're takin' up too much space... trapperP | ||
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| One of Us |
Well as much as I like the AK, if I was going into battle my rifle would be the FN FAL, thats the rifle I trained with and used. short and fat and hard to get at, hit like a hammer and never been hit back. | |||
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Personally, I feel the same way - BUT it would be an M14 for me, along with a lot of mags and spare ammo! I KNOW what that rifle will do. Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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The FN FAL is far FAR more reliable rifle then the M14. I'll give you the M14 is more accurate, but the FN is better all around. The FN actually beat the M14 in the military test, but politics at that time got the M14 chosen. | |||
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For accuracy I'd pick the 03A4 sniper rifle.Just saw one listed on Guns America for $6500 | |||
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Really? Half the capacity - FIVE vs TEN - a slower bolt - 90 degree vs 60 degree opening and longer bolt travel - NO STOCK LENGTH SELECTION "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" - when reloading the bolt obscures the sight picture and firer's view of the target - cocking on opening - loading only by clip not by either clip or magazine - inability to reload by clip until magazine totally empty rather than to "top up" when required if five rounds or less left - no "compensating" effect when shooting at 900+ yards - etc., etc. The "poor" SMLE only capable of what was it? A record of thirty-eight rounds in a 12" target at 300 yards in sixty seconds? And in an average trained man twenty to thirty aimed shots a minute expected? And ten shots in ten seconds using the "middle finger" technique? Yes, that K98 really was a better battle rifle than the combat useless SMLE. And the K98k even better than the even more useless No4 with its aperture sight. | |||
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| One of Us |
.....and that's not to mention if the action gets full of mud you can clear it out much faster in the SMLE because it doesn't have that area that is hard to clean with the front locking lugs on the 98 Mausers bolt. Hell one of the gun magazines had simulated battle field test between the Mosin Nagant and the 98 Mauser and the Mosin came out on top. Some simple little things like if you drop a clip of ammo from either rifle, more the likely rounds will fall out on the Mauser clips. The Mosin, they though had easier to see sights and it proved out in dim shooting conditions. Mosins were designed to shoot with the bayonets on too (speaking of the bayonet didn't hurt the accuracy while on the rifle opposed to other military rifles). Mauser is a great rifle, but wouldn't say it was the best. There is no doubt the SMLE is one of the fastest bolt actions made. | |||
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And one blindingly bleeding obvious omission - showing that morons script these programmes - the first effective, short range, fast firing, high capacity, easily controllable "battle rifle" in the world...the HENRY (LATER WINCHESTER) LEVER ACTION! As used in the Battle of Altoona Pass during the American Civil War and elsewhere....so good, in fact, that my late friend Captain Clifford Owen carried one (a Winchester 94 in .44-40) throughout the North Africa campaign against Rommel during WWII. Indeed at under 150 yards I'd rate the Winchester Lever Action as a better practical battle rifle than the K98! | |||
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The renown Jeff Cooper once said of the Model 94 Winchesters in 30-30 "Possibly one of the best combat rifles ever conceive and the only short coming was the possibility of the magazine tube being dent and rendered inoperative". | |||
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As renowned as ol' Jeff was, I think he was way out in left field on this one. | |||
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Military Channel?  A battle rifle is a rifle firing a full sized round, ie a 7.62x51, 30-06, 8x57 and so on. The winner is an assault rifle, firing an intermediate round as is the runner up. Military Channel? Still as accurate as ever.  AS for the Mauser V SMLE argument, perhaps it could be said that the SMLE was the best for it's designed purpose, and the Mauser is the better pick for conversion to a sporter, or to other cartridges? JMHO. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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Are you sure? I have many of Col Coopers writings on the subject, and although he does say it was a good choice as a 'scout' rifle, he does explain why the Win 94 would not have been up to speed as a Battle rifle. Too fragile for general issue. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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I guess I 'd have to ask why the M14 made the list. Just a modification of the Garand, never really widely distributed and comparatively short lived as a Combat weapon. The old Moisin Nagant would be up there in terms of numbers built, length of use and distribution. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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M14 service short lived? It's being used every day in Iraq, Afganistan, and by the Navy's boarding parties in the Persian Gulf. | |||
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The p14 enfield was a better rifle that was issued in larger numbers than the 03. Not sure why the 03 was listed. | |||
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No I'm not positive and believe it's more along the lines that you have just posted. Bottom line is Jeff thought highly of the Model 94. | |||
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There isn't any bias here, in that 4 of the ten are American, is there.  Naw, couldn't be .Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Yeah maybe we should drop number 10 for the Ross, fine rifle that one, served Canada so well, for so long. | |||
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You think the P14 (P17) Enfield better than the '03 Springfield?!!!! | |||
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Not trying to hi-jack this thread. But 'what if' What if you were being dropped off on Mars for five years and expected to survive against whatever may come. You get one (of these listed rifles) and 200 rounds of ammunition. You don't know if you might encounter cannibalistic Martians, Martian zulu warriors, or the Martian leopard. Maybe the protein you eat will be a Martian impala. As much as I like an 03-A3 and an AK-47, give me a 98K Mauser. | |||
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Hey, just like the M 16, it helps to have friends in Government. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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You know why it was better? It was better, because it was available. We would have lost the war without it. The 03 is a great rifle, but it's really just a copy of a mauser. So is the P17 and P14, but they were available when the 03 wasn't. | |||
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I posted this up for info, not to get another chapter in the proverbial pissing contest going. My observation re the m98 vs the “Smelly†was just that, my observation. And for some on here , theM14 was twice as good as the 'Smelly' as it held 20 rds vs 10, the AK and variants along wit h the GI carbine was three times as good as they held 30 rds, and so forth. Ridiculous? Of course it was. How can you say one rifle is 'better' than another unless you weigh in the factors contributing to the use of that rifle the time and conditions it was used under? I don't think you can. Couple or three points here: I own various and sundry Mausers, some still military in configuration, others converted to sporters. I know and love this rifle. I also own and fire a couple of 'Smellys', my favorite was manufactured I believe in 1916, TFR'd in 1953. Never used one in a combat situation but I never used a Mauser there either. I did use and trust an M14, one that had a Unertl scope sitting on top and this rifle never failed to do everything asked of it. I've also owned a couple of FN FAL's over he years and was just never really impressed with this piece for various reasons. So there, I'm open for the old BOHICA trick once again, let fly. And I don't doubt the word of any honored poster here but find it very hard to believe anyone would recommend the Winchanger M94 - or any lever gun, for that matter -as a 'combat rifle.' Oh, one final thought: I've never seen a kit to convert a rifle to cock on closing but I have seen a lot and installed a few to convert to cock on opening – why do you think this is? | |||
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I've never been in combat, except with the wife on occasion, I did get to pack one in my short Militila stay, though. But among my rifles, I own a couple of FAL types and I couldn't think of anything good to say about them. Originally designed for a medium power cartridge, Politics upgraded it to the full power .308 and I'm sure it lost plenty of utility there and it was decided to keep the full auto option, as well.With the flash hider, the thing is long enough to use as a flag pole, it's awkward to carry and get into action and it's heavy. The usual sighting system sucks and can fold down, being unavailable when you might need it most. Seems to me, once nations decided there were better weapons out there, it disappeared almost over night. Yes, the M14 is still in limited service, but it never achieved the distribution of any of the others on the list, or lasted as long. Having said that, if , what is that quaint abreviation Survivalist use, ever happened , I'd pick it.Grizz Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Couple answers: Milsurp rifles that cock-on-closing were made because it required less effort to cycle the bolt from the shoulder during a battle. That said, this system has a slower lock time which causes accuracy loss unless the shooter is familiar with it. That wasn't an important factor in these older military rifles. All Mauser models before the model 98, the Enfields (including the P-14 & P-17) and others used this system. Unless you are building a high-end sporter from one of these actions, the cock-on-opening conversions are a waste of time and money. Thousands of fine hunting rifles have been built that still use the original system. The rationale for the “cock on closing†feature was the brainchild of the British Ordnance Department based on the assumption that, in combat, ammunition would become dirty and extreme rifle cleanliness would be difficult. The combat grime coupled with the heat generated by rapid fire (in the opinion of the British) would materially hamper the working of a rifle bolt in battle. The idea was that using the American/German turnbolt design, a dirty round in a dirty, hot, rifle would put an undue strain on the manipulation of the bolt under combat conditions. Splitting the sequence of extraction, ejection, feeding, cocking, and locking would in theory make the manipulation of the rifle with a hot dirty chamber, using dirty ammunition, an easier task. In actual usage on the battle fields of France, this assumption proved to be an excellent solution to a non-existent problem. | |||
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The M1 Garand was going to be manufactured for an intermediate cartridge too. The FNFAL handles the 308 just fine. Not talking about recoil in full auto, neither it nor the M14 do that well. The FNFAL was pretty widely distributed through out the world, that says alot. I think what really supplanted it was the NATO's adoption of the 5.56. If they are going to throw the Garand in the list they should have put a Hakim in there as it beats the pants off a Garand. | |||
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Try getting something more reliable than this... After a French made MAS of course.  | |||
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P17 vs. 03...... I can see the argument for bolt action cock on close....you're not fighting the mainspring and the primary extraction at the same time. BUT you're exerting the most effort on the forward (and final action)........ when you're trying to concentrate on sight picture. Not good for precision sustained fire. | |||
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DaMan that sight picture might be negated because most (not all 1917 enfield being one0 cock on closing bolt action rifles had straight bolts. That alone almost necessitated having to dismount the rifle from your shoulder. The spring resistance encountered when closing the bolt is hardly noticeable. | |||
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In war documentaries I have seen a German carrying a #4 Mk1 T* and a US soldier carrying an unscoped #4 M1. | |||
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I've seen it written somewhere that during WWI, the Germans were armed with a hunting rifle (M98 Mauser), the Americans with a target rifle ('03 Springfield), and that the British were the only ones with a COMBAT RIFLE (SMLE). Based on a comparison of the characteristics of these three rifles, this is a pretty valid observation.......... One must remember that when the shooting started in 1914, about the only power involved whose small arms had undergone extensive proving in combat under a variety of conditions were the Brits. "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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The SMLE is not my favorite bolt action rifle but I agree with the above statement. | |||
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Go easy on the K98. Considering it is more than 100 years old and that we have made few improvements with regards to bolt action rifles in more than 100 years, is very telling....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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For the Norwegian point of view is the M98, Krag M94, AG3, (HK G3) , and our forces has used so much different as from Swedish M96 mausers, to Lee Enfield of various kinds to FN Fal and C5- C8 rifles and now for elite tropps the HK 416 | |||
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I don't know how they can leave off the SKS and Mosin. The Garand would be up there with the SMLE in my book. As ugly as they are, If I had to pick one for a mad max role it would be a Mosin Nagant of any flavor. Dead reliable, accurate and carry well. Bury a few dozen tins of ammo any your are set. | |||
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I'm with you on the Mosin, but not the SKS. SkS obsolete by the time it went into production. It was just a stand in until the AK showed up. | |||
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That's Jeff Cooper for you. Sometimes said and wrote stuff that looked a bit odd at first glance, until you read it again and thought about it. Then it usually made sense. Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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Give me a FAL anytime. | |||
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What is the opinion here on the H&K G3? | |||
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The G3 is a fine gun but I found that the FAL is more accurate, more comfortable to shoot and can be fed with any type of ammunition thank to the gas adjustement system when the G3 is more picky. | |||
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