OK, How do these things work? I see no control surfaces on the projectile portion of the RPG. What keeps them straight? What is the payload? Do they use a shaped charge of some kind?
Thanks, peter.

Ahhh, yes. thanks for the question. Most people are smart enough not to ask me about military weapons. I tend to go on and on and on... Oops, sorry.

The RPG or Rocket Propelled Grenade is stabilized (not controlled) by the stick that goes into the launcher, much like bottle rockets are stabilized by the stick that goes into the bottle. There are some very small fins on the warhead, but they don't look like they do much. Outside of 150 m, RPGs don't retain much accuracy/stability.

The RPG is a shaped charge. Very little blast-produced casualty producing ability. In fact, the carcasses I've seen have just come unwrapped from the seam, with no shrapnel effect at all.

You know, right off-hand, I cannot remember the warhead size. 84mm sounds familiar for some reason. I could be off on that. They only weigh a few pounds apiece, with propellent.

All-in-all, a very simple, elegant weapon, that is also very inefficient and incapable, to boot. The best part of it is the component reusability and size.

120mm

what do you mean incapable? In comparison to a TOW?

They seem to do a number on HumVees, and the bigger problem is that they are so cheap, as everyone has one. Some jag off on a overpass can destroy any thin skinned vehicle that comes by, that would make me nervous.

How is the security situation going over there, in your opinion.

Only incapable in terms of their casualty-producing capability. If it doesn't actually hit you, you will probably be okay. It's kind of big to be just another bullet. If it would fragment, they would be deadly, but instead, it just unwraps at the seams and flattens out. (the casing, that is.)

The security situation is improving. Gradually, but apparently surely. The problem now is that the relatively few combatants are getting more sophisticated. Less ambushes, but better prepared.

In the last few days, especially, the local Iraqis have become much more helpful in ratting out the bad guys. Kids have started warning convoys and patrols about IEDs, etc..

Northern Iraq might as well be northern California, right now. It's where you can go and just "chill out." No real threat, and the economy is really starting to take off. Look for this happening down south as well.

The Sunni triangle is still contentious, but I think that could've been predicted.

Peace.

Hello;
Some time ago, some Canadian reporter was snuffed, I believe in Afghanistan, by an RPG. At the time, the media reported that these things came in two versions, one anti-armour and one anti-personell. Is this true, or just the usual ravings of an ill informed media?
Grizz

RPG's 101 good info on a good site
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20030711.asp

Jim

"Kill or wound everyone within a 10-15 foot radius" is not our experience. Kill or wound the guy it hits is more likely correct.

The RPG can be defeated by a fairly light wire mesh, which causes it to explode prematurely. Currently, Improvised Explosive Devices or IEDs are the #1 casualty producer in Iraq.

RPGs v. helicopters is a good point. Also, they make good harassment weapons. RPGs are also used to stun unarmored vehicle crews in an ambush, to allow riflemen to shoot the disoriented vehicle crews.

They are still fairly effective in putting down lightly armored vehicles, which is what they are designed to do. I will do some research, but I am only familiar with the anti-armor round. There are reports of field expedient anti-personnel rounds (wrapped with barbed wire), but that would affect accuracy.

Update: According to Ian Hogg, the RPG-7 is an 85mm warhead, the AT-4 (US) is 84mm.

Hogg makes an error in his book "Infantry Support Weapons. He claims that chicken wire defeats the RPG because it short-circuits the fuse, and that technical problem has been solved. This is incorrect.

In reality, the projectile works on the HEAT principle, where the explosion focuses a thin cone of metal into a self-forged projectile. This molten slug then "burns" through up to 330 mmm of homogenous steel. The chicken wire actually causes the fuse to impact detonate in the air, where the molten copper is not constricted at it's focal point and is therefore dissipated as a quickly solidifying "spatter" short of the armor.

The better sorts of self-forging projectile, such as the TOW IIB missile, actually produce a high velocity "slug" which can travel through the air and then penetrate armor, and therefore, cannot be easily defeated by standoff or reactive armor.

(Of course, the TOW IIB is a "top-attack" weapon also.)

120mm, I will email you a photo of the front line effects of the RPG, from northern Iraq. It will indeed tear up a Humvee and penetrate the rear ramp of a buttoned-up Bradley. I have also seen evidence of it's ability to produce shrapnel, (surgically removed chunks that have eastern block writing on them).

Simple and low-tech as it is, the RPG obviously works.

alot of 120's RPG's may be old and malfunctioning, and that would explain why the ones he has seen are not producing the kills others have seen. Also, I thought the RPG had fins that pop up on the back of the stick after its fired?

Matt sent me the pic or shrapnel wounds on his son. I am glad I am not the parent of a kid in the military right now. That has to be tough. Prayers for him. In fact, prayers for all the youngsters here in Iraq.

Again, effectiveness is completely relative. RPG-7s casualty producing effects are very inferior compared to Western, more modern-designed AT weapons. ALL the RPG-7s I've seen carcasses of tend to "unravel around the seams, versus fragmenting. This doesn't mean components of the projectile don't fly every which way, at energy levels capable of killing. On the other hand, I've seen truck drivers survive RPG hits that you wouldn't believe. I've also seen where they've cut people completely in half.

It appears to be a fine point, me trying to explain effectiveness, but all HEAT rounds are less effective than AP rounds. The designer has to make that trade-off to make the shaped charge effective. A designed AP round is much more efficient at producing casualties.

As far as Bradley back doors are concerned, the Brad has more problems than it's vulnerability to HEAT rounds. Anyone wants to talk how bad the M2/3 IFV/CFV sucks, can start a new topic, and I'll fill it full of problems.

As far as the issue of security in N. Iraq, that too is relative. We were under daily mortar attacks when the soldiers in N. Iraq were going to shopping malls, restaurants, etc.. This doesn't mean there wasn't or isn't currently some violence in N. Iraq. Compared to the "Sunni Triangle", both N. and S. Iraq are relatively quiet.

There was a high RPG threat in urban areas of Northern Ireland in the mid 1980s. In order to defeat this threat to some degree all the armoured vehicles we used had a steel grid welded to the armour on brackets that provided roughly 12 inches of "stand off". THe upgrade was called Operation Kremlin. Happy days....

If it is not happening already then in might be an idea to get Hummers in Iraq similarly modified.

Of course after the supply of RPGs dried up or were captured in the early 90s, the IRA made some extremely effective home made shaped charge off route mines, command wire operated. These provided far greater penetration than RPGs. Been there and cleaned up the mess.

Matt Norman - I hope your son is making a full recovery from his wounds.

The IRA also had a homemade recoiless grenade launcher. This fired (if memory serves me right) a warhead made in a standard 400gram "baked bean can" forward, while ejecting a packet of digestive biscuits as a counter weight to the rear! The whole thing was put together from standard pipe fittings available off the shelf from a DIY store. I have no idea how common these were, but it shows how inventive they were...

Their DIY mortars were very effective and it was a variation of these that they used for their off road mines Richard mentions above.

Wire netting was also used to protect buildings from mortar attack as well as dealing with the RPG threat.

Regards,

Pete

[ 09-29-2003, 14:14: Message edited by: Pete E ]

Adam,

I can't remember how heavy those mk10's were, but they were bloody heavy although I think they did build some even bigger versions...

Was it the mk10 they used to attack Downing Street??

Regards

Pete

Pete, I believe you are correct about the downing Street mortar.

I was mortared by a Mk10 in Macrory Park Base in the Ballymurphy in 85. No casualties but it blew up the cookhouse.

They did make some Mk15 Barrack Busters which were enormous.

The off route I refered to earlier was the Mk12. I was told by the WIS bloke that it was capable of defeating the front armour on a T62. Not bad for something knocked up in the farm workshop.

Got to hand it to them for innovation. Makes a mockery of "placing weapons out of use". Packet of McVities and a MIG welder and you are back in business.

[ 09-29-2003, 17:30: Message edited by: Deerdogs ]

I believe we are speaking not to one weapon here but to a whole family of weapons. I wish I knew what each of these represents but I do not. I have seen RPG-2, RPG-6 and RPG-7 rounds and I believe the RPG-6 (ChiCom) was intended to be an anti-personnel round. See Examples:

I do know the RPG-7 of the Viet Nam era would wreck a boat if it took a hit. The Navy developed a type of bar armor to explode the round before it got into the boat but this was of little use against the BM-40 rocket and of no use at all against the recoilless rifle. As you can see from this example, it didn't always work:

I have been told the RPG-7 would burn through the front slope of an M48 tank although I never saw one that had beeen hit so I cannot comment. And while the shrapnel from an exploding RPG may not be of much consequence, the gas path from the blast is terribly destructive and doesn't leave much in a contained area.
The RPG has probably been improved and refined since I last saw one which was a long time ago - 1966! - and I have seen reference to an RPG-9. This weapon system is a further development and outgrowth of the German Panzerfaust of WWII and has several advantages: it is effective, easy to use and very cheap to maufacture and procure. Virtually every Third World country today has stocks of these things and I would imagine they are a real threat, especailly against lightly armored and thin-skinned vehicles. Hope some of this helps a bit.
Regards,

Just wanted to point out that if the Iraqis had modern ammunition for the RPG-7's, American casualties would be MUCH higher. If they had RPG-29's, explosive reactive armor would not be of much use. But like most 3. world countries, they only have what the Russians were willing to sell.

VKTM39

Please enlighten the rest of us

what makes you so sure?

Also, is hell very hot this time of year?

Deerdogs: two months+ later my son is doing okay. He's back in the 'States and has returned to (+ or -) duties. He has opted to re-up for another 4 years in the U.S. Army, so that pretty much tells the story. His opinion is the media is not telling the real (positive) story of Iraq, but instead focusing on the sensational. After foot-soldiering in Afghaistan and Iraq, he's going to do some parade duty in 'D.C.

120mm is genuine by the way.

Also, we got a lot of support from a very broad spectrum of the A-R neighborhood; Aspen Hill Ann, Saeed, and Pecos 45. Think what you might about them and their opinions on things, but they are all quality people.

They will all be featured at the 2nd Annual Accurate Reloading Convention! ( Darn, I can't wait to get everybody together under the same roof!)

Hello;
I think Trapper hit the nail on the head. This thing may not be terribly effective on an individual basis, but the supply of them seems to be endless. Just watch news coverage of any hot spot in the word and everybody has either An Ak or an RPG, or both.
Grizz

I saw a tank in Vietnam that had been hit and penetrated by an RPG. The crew survived with relatively minor wounds.

Just RPG mean in Czech (and belive similar in Russian) "Rucni protitankovy granat", what mean hand antitank grenade. Maybe, this name was used to allow "RPG" name into our "environment". Just curious that west and east have the same name for the same thing.

Jiri

Are not small mortars a more serious threat? Greater range, indirect fire, heavier HE charge? I know they take more training, but in the hands of a skilled crew they scare the crap out of me!

It took a long time for the Iraqis to figure the mortar thing out. But after a couple of months, they started mortaring us every night. However, there are ways of dealing with mortars, so even that has been "hit and miss". Mainly miss. It's become a highly ineffective weapon.

Light infantry mortars are really effective if you are going to reduce a fixed position. However, if you are outnumbered and esp. if you are firing blind, they are just so much flash and bang. Russ and I both have sat on the porch (separately) and watched the "fireworks." We've had some wounded, but I don't believe anyone killed from mortars. Now, they used a mortar on a busy shopping center last week, and it was fairly effective against civilian shoppers.

(I grimace as I hit reply, knowing someone out there will have a contrary experience.)

Dang It, I wish i could remember the name of the man that "invented" these kinda rockets... it's a blackpowder days, thing, pre american revolutionary war... looked like a giant bottle rocket, that laid on a plank to launch.... no stabilizers, other than thrust then gravity...

jeffe

jeffeosso,

You're not thinking of the "Cosgrive" (spelling) are you?

Regards,

jeffeosso and C1PNR, that would be the Congreve rocket IIRC.

I hear tell them Congreve rockets had a red glare, with bombs bursting in air and what not.

On the subject of the RPG though - I saw a report on Janes a while back that the Bulgarians had a fuel/air RPG head that's equivalent to 2kg of TNT.
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jidr/jidr010104_2_n.shtml