Do you think the change to M16 from the M1A1 was for the better? What makes one rifle better than the other?

I think you are asking two questions here and other implements of war since then have also changed.

I can tell you for urban fighting you can't do with a M1A1 what you can do with a AR15/M16.

But for sustained precision longe range fire I think an M14/M1A1 is better.

[ 03-18-2003, 07:50: Message edited by: Mike Dettorre ]

The M-16 is a better design but the 5.56 lacks power so I don't think it was. An M-14 could be cut down the same way as the M-16 with a little work on the stock and oprod. A better idea would be to adopt the AR-10 with a couple of mods to it.

isnt a cut down M14/m1a1 just a mini 14? or 30 if you want a different round??

jeremy w,
At the time our government switched to the M-16, the ability too carry more ammo was touted as one of the main reasons for the switch. I wonder why it was necessary to limit the M-16 to a three shot burst instead of full auto. I've not handled the M-16 A2, which I understand is configured this way. I have worked with the BAR, M-1, M14 and the original M-16. The BAR and it's ammo belt makes for a load right at forty pounds. The M-1 was a real nice piece of equipment. Shooting at some of the longer ranges, across frozen rice paddies, I don't think the M-1 can be improved on. One draw back was its size when going house to house or doing close work. Between the M-14 and the M-16, I'll take the M-14. The M-16 is a lot more fun too shoot, if you are not going in harms way. If going home depends on someone who gets hit having a change of priorities, the M-16 won't do the job. The M-14 will, unless the holes are put around the edges. One unpleasant memory has to do with trying too put a 55 grain .224 bullet through a stand of bamboo. I'll tell you, it is a little frustrating. The size and weight of the M-14 also makes it handy when things get thick. In answer too your question, I'll take a M-14 for a good all around use.

The Mini-14 is a scaled down reciever. It won't take 7.62x51 pressure. In 7.62 it can take the 7.62x34 due to a lower pressure. As far as the three round burst goes too many rounds got wasted in spray and pray, the three round burst holds a man sized target better for most users.

This 'discussion' comes up every so often and it comes down to the application, the shooter, personal preference etc. I'm on the M14 side of the fence. The house to house argument was handled in Korea and WWII with Thompsons, 'Grease Guns', carbines etc.

Blaming soldiers, and ultimately the powder, for the early malfunctions still rings foul to me. I have a cheap old .22 that will also shoot for a while as long as you clean and oil it every 50 rounds.

The 3 round burst 'feature' was another ill conceived notion at controlling the ammo budget. That gun did not reset after each burst (at least the first issued didn't) so you never knew if you had 3 rounds or 1 coming with the next squeeze.

The M16 still seems like the new kid on the block to me as it passes its 40th year heading for 50.

Bottom Line: May not be one. But remember that a rifle is a tool and pick the right tool for the job. (and yes I'd rather take my Trijicon equipped CQB configured pre-ban Mini-14 house to house than that 'other' black rifle).

The 'Garand' action is not broken and doesn't need fixed. I wonder what they will break out (again) in Iraq when the sand stars blowing. That little M-4 won't even make a good club with a grain of sand in it.

Cheers,
XWind

ps Remember that M1A is a copyrighted name own by Springfield Armory. The M1A is referred to in NRA competitions as the M-14.

HI,

XWIND, please help me out as I see where you have ACOG. I am looking at either a ACOG or Aimpoint. I hear how great ACOGS are can you give me any information on either. I am looking at a compast ACOG AT-50, what can you tell me. Thanks you, Kev

You mean M14, not M1A1!! No!! When I was in RVN, as an advisor, they issued me an M2 Carbine, so I could use the same ammo as the local forces I was working with. There was a Spec. Forces team not too far away, and I was able to acquire an M14 and an M1911A1, which I carried at all times! The M14 came in very handy during TET 1968, because I was in the Mekong Delta, where we could often get shots at ranges up to 600 yards across the flat land/rice paddies! The Carbine was useless, and many shots were taken with M14's at ranges beyond what the M16 was capable of in those days!! One of the guys on my team had an M1903A4 Springfield with a 4X scope, which I tried to trade him out of, without success!! That would have been an ideal rig for the area I was in!!

Hey Kev,
I'm not up to speed on all of the current models but the reason I went with Trijicon was the quality of construction, no need for a battery and the amber triangle (or dot depending on model) doesn't screw up my night vision. The ambient light collecting system makes the triangle as easy to in daylight as it is at night.

I selected the Reflex II because it strictly for CQB and has no magnification or parallax issues. The multi-layer lens system is top notch. I struggled with the decision about a dot or a triangle and am glad I chose the triangle. Even though it's a CQB rig the triangle is of known dimensions and therefore can assist in rangefinding for those occassional longer shots.

Not everyone likes the same tools but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this unit to anyone. It's tough, will be there when you need it and Trijicon will replace the Tritium source should it get dim (takes about ten years or more). I also use tritium night sights on my carry pistol and am sold on the technology.

The price supports the adage that 'you get what you pay for'. I hope this helps a bit and regardless of what you decide, enjoy it and shoot it often...

Cheers,
XWind

Eldeguello. I was in the Delta Mar'68-Mar'69 in IV Corps HQs G-4. Where were you?? Joe Peden, John Finical and I sent a lot of stuff out to Advisory Teams after TET '68.
Donovan.

cowboy77845

I was at the same place as you were, in IV Corps G1. Dear old Can Tho. I got there in December 67 and went home in late Nov. 68. During TET 68, I got a chopper and flew out to all our subordinate teams to get a casualty report put together. We had to shoot our way into Cao Lan (44th Spec Tactical Zone-Col. Geraci, "Mal Hombre")!! The VC were shelling the messhall there with a 57mm Recoilless!! One of the ones we gave Chiang-Kia-Shek during WWII! The impact of each shell made drinking a cup of coffee a little nerve-wracking!!

What are you doing in College Station? I graduated from A&M in 1961!

[ 04-03-2003, 00:32: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Eldeguello.
The name "Larry Lyons comes to mind and a kind of round faced guy with glasses about 5'8 or 5'9. Is that you?? They were using real bullets up there in the 44th Spec Zone if I recall. I am doing what I wish at CS. Retired in '90. Got a piece of a ranch in Falls Co. Am trying to attract deer and hogs and my rentor is not pleased with me. I inherited the famed "Aggie Barn" on Hi-way 6 at Reagan. Thats about my only claim to fame. Just got an M1A and can't get it to shoot little groups. Tried match commercial stuff. It will shoot 3 shots in 1'1/2' @100 yds and then shoot three more in a similar group about an inch away tthe right and lower. Its not the scope, Its not the ammo. Could the bbl be light and walking? Its got an Match bbl.
Donovan. '62

Cowboy, you got me! I worked for a civilian contractor for a couple of years at W. Fort Hood, conducting operational test & eval of new "land combat systems", such as the M1A1 Abrams, the Bradley, the M109A4 SP 155mm howitzer, the SINCGARS radio system, the "TACJAM" tactical communitactions jamming system, and a theatre-level radio system called the AN-TRC 170. Then, my wife got a job teaching in upstate New York, near Syracuse, and we moved there. She later took a similar position in Hagerstown MD., and we now live not too far from the Mason-Dixon line on the Yankee side (PA taxes are lower). I have been totally retired since 2000, when we sold seven of our last remaining nine Tennessee Walking Horses. We kept our old stallion and one of his sons. I sometimes ride around the Antietam and Gettysburg National Battlefields. There's also the Chesapeake & Ohio Canal, over 120 miles from Washington D.C. to Cumberland MD, which has hiking & riding trails. I still have a 20-acre farm in NY, where we go in the summer. I shoot on a range I built up there, but here I had to join a "Conservation Club", which has a nice 200 yard range in Waynesboro PA.

RE: Your M1A. It sounds to me like you may have an off-center bore, so when it heats up, the thick side expands more or less than the other, causing the muzzle to shift where it is pointing> I had a BAR in .308 that would shoot its' first two shots into one hole, then the next three would go into an entirely separate group abut 4" above the first one. I did everything I could think of to fix it, to no avail. I traded it (It was a Grade IV - very pretty. But, as ol' T. Whelen used to say, only accurate rifles are interesting!!")

[ 04-03-2003, 22:35: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Eldeguello. If yoyu get down this way, let me know . I'll treat you to lunch.

All right! Thanks for the invite (I should never have left Texas!!)

[ 04-04-2003, 20:08: Message edited by: eldeguello ]