hi
I 've heared and read about russian rifles shooting att very long range with rather anemic rounds like 7,62x39 or 7,6x54 and killing big game att distance upp to 800 meters(900 yards). I wonder what make them so effective? in a test about veper(308) the author claims 600 to800 meter as a normal hunting range . can you please explain this to me? 600 meter is a long range even a 300 weatherby magnum!!
regards
yazid

Not speaking to hunting as I haven't done long range hunting. However, as far as rifle shooting and competition, 600yds is considered mid-range in the US, and while a 7.62x39 isn't likely to connect at that distance, the 7.62x54R is quite capable if the rifle and shooter are. Looking at case capacity and such, I doubt that in a good rifle, with a good shooter, that the full house 7.62x54R would have much difficulty at the 1k line. I know from watching it that the round in the old Mosin Nagant rifles has little difficulty dumping the steel rams (which are fairly heavy) at 500 meters.

Eric

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
hi
I 've heared and read about russian rifles shooting att very long range with rather anemic rounds like 7,62x39 or 7,6x54 and killing big game att distance upp to 800 meters(900 yards). I wonder what make them so effective? in a test about veper(308) the author claims 600 to800 meter as a normal hunting range . can you please explain this to me? 600 meter is a long range even a 300 weatherby magnum!!
regards
yazid

Yes,
We refer to stories like that (600 to 800 meters a normal hunting range) as tall tales in the US.
They are tales no one is expected to believe, they are just told for amusement. I am sure the Ruskies tell some tall ones too.

Hi Tahoe
Did you use mil-surp 150 grain ammo for metalic shooting or you did handloading with somewhat heavier bullets? are those light pointed mil-surp bullets are good for silueta metalica shooting? in my experince they deflect very easily,
regards
yazid

I've noticed that those gunwriters with military backgrounds who test military rifles tend to have very different criteria for accuracy than hunters. If they can hit a man-sized target anywhere with 3/4 of shots from 800 yds. they regard it as the effective range for that gun. Which it may well be for a military rifle, but for a hunter that would not -or at least it should not - be good enough. Don't know if the author you were referring to is one of these guys, but that sometimes explains their judgement.

As far as the 7,62x54R is considered, it is as close to .30-06 as any round gets, so you can estimate its performance from that.

Hi JTH
well it is true that 7,62x54R loaded by finnish factories like lapua or sako isn't far behind 3006. but we are talking about military mosin nagant or vepr in kaliber 308 . your explanation about the origin of authors may explain a lot. there 2 kind of mosin nagant rifles one made in russia and second made in finland. i am not expert in this matter,but a hunter from finland told me that russians have a caliber 0,311 to 0.314! and finnish are made with barrel in 0,308 and suited to use hunting ammo. he even said finnsh nagant excellent quality,but russian made are real trash.
who knows i would like to know a little more about these guns.
regards
yazid

Yes, the Finnish ones are better made than the Russian ones. In Finland we used to say when referring to Russia and Russian products: Big country - big tolerances, which pretty much sums up our wiew about their quality control.

More about Mosins, here is link that I found in another thread: http://mosinnagant.net/USSR/default.asp

After consuming all the knowledge in those pages about Mosins, you will be more or less an expert

Can't really speak to the Moisin-Nagant sniper rifles as I'm not really sure they had any special selection or process to make them any different from the regular rifles - just like the US Springield 03A4 was not seleceted for accuracy, etc. I can however speak to the Dragunov as I saw and fired a couple of these things and they were very, very accurate. I would say these rifles shot every bit as well as the re-worked M14 we used which had 8X Unertl scopes, reinforced stocks, etc - very much like what became the M21.
I have posted a clip abut these rifles and the variants. Quite a piece and considering the ammo design used a cartridge, the 7.62X54R, which is rimmed and about a hundred years old, they are remarkable - wish I owned one now.
Problem, as mentioned, was the battery for the scopes - these were very hard to come by. To my knowledge, no supply source was ever found and I don't know if any are abvailable today or if the scopes could be modified to use another type.

SVD Dragunov
Notes: The SVD has apparently been around since the late 1950s; however, its existence was merely conjecture and rumor until the mid-1960s when examples were captured by US troops in Vietnam. The SVD is basically a highly-modified Kalashnikov, using a similar bolt system, but using a short-stroke piston system with a lightweight piston instead of the long-stroke heavy piston of the Kalashnikov series. Thus, while the Dragunov may look like is uses the Kalashnikov action from the outside, internally the Dragunov is a very different weapon.

The 24.4-inch barrel is better than that used on the typical Russian rifle of the period, but is still not equal in quality to comparable Western sniper rifles of the period (such as the M-21). This barrel is tipped with a long, slotted flash suppressor, and also has a bayonet lug (an unusual feature for a sniper rifle). The trigger group is also simply adequate for a sniper’s weapon, but nothing exceptional; the fire controls include a safety sear and a disconnector, which ensures that the trigger must be released after each shot (or trigger bar will not reconnect with the sear, and the weapon will not fire). The SVD is equipped with a sight mount attached to the left side of the receiver; this mount accepts the PSO-1 4x24 telescopic sight (standard until recently for the SVD series). The PSO-1 includes an illuminated reticle low-light conditions, and is powered by a battery which is essentially a proprietary Russian design that will fit into very few other devices. The mount will also accept the PSO-1M2, an updated PSO-1 which includes a metascope that can detect IR light sources (but is not sensitive enough for use as night vision device. Another device usable by the SVD is the NSPU-3 3.46x image intensifying scope. Iron sights are also provided. The stock has a distinctive skeletonized profile, built of weatherproofed beechwood and including a semi-pistol grip and a raised cheekpiece.

In the early 1980s, an upgraded version of the SVD (sometimes referred to as the SVDM) was introduced. This version is basically the same as the standard SVD, but the wooden stock has been replaced by one made of synthetic materials, and a mount is provided for a detachable bipod. In addition to the standard telescopic sights available to the SVD, the SVDM can mount a Minuta 3-9x42 scope. This scope includes an orange light filter to improve image contrast, a rangefinder and an aiming reticle, both illuminated (either simultaneously or individually).

The SVDS is a folding-stock variant of the SVD that was designed for airborne, air assault, and special operations troops, but eventually distributed to the other parts of the Soviet Army. It was introduced in the late 1970s using experience gained in Afghanistan. It is basically an SVD with a tubular metal folding stock and a shorter 22.2-inch barrel with a shorter and less bulky flash suppressor; no bayonet lug is provided. (Originally, there was to be an SVDS-A, with a standard-length barrel, and an SVDS-D, with a shorter barrel, but the SVDS-A was not accepted for service.) The rifle is not intended to be fired with the stock folded, as when it is the trigger, pistol grip (which is no longer a part of the stock), and charging handle are obstructed. If fired with the stock folded, hit rolls are at -2. The pistol grip and fore-end are made from polymer. A new 15-round magazine was designed to be used with this rifle, and it will not fit in the SVD or SVU. The scopes which may be mounted are identical to those on the SVDM; however, some of these rifles have been seen in the hands of troops in Chechnya with unknown-model scopes of 6x24 and 8x24 powers. The Russians have of late been trying to sell the SVDS on the export market; to this end, a version chambered for 7.62mm NATO has been developed in recent years. This version of the SVDS is also capable of mounting a wider variety of telescopic sights and night vision equipment."

I hope some of this helps. As to the actual use of these rifles, I don't think a shot of 600-800 meteres at a man sized target would be unreasonable or even exceptional, given an experienced shooter and a mansized target. I would very much NOT wish to be the one being shot at with the SVD at such range!

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
Hi Tahoe
Did you use mil-surp 150 grain ammo for metalic shooting or you did handloading with somewhat heavier bullets? are those light pointed mil-surp bullets are good for silueta metalica shooting? in my experince they deflect very easily,
regards
yazid

Hi Yes,
I said I had seen the use. I shoot a swede in our military only, WW2 and older as-issued matches. So I have no idea the loads used. I was going to use one of my russians with canned surplus ammo once but didn't.


Eric

If you want to see what some of those old military rifles with those long-ranged sights could actually do, you might wanta mosey up the AR menu a bit to the Single Shot Rifles forum. I just posted some information you might find very interesting, uder the title "Old Miltary Rifles and (some) Modern Gunwriters".

There are numerous accounts of Marine riflemen in WW1 shooting Germans at over 700 yards with their 03’s.

And then there is the very famous story about the man that the Farr trophy is named after. This guy shot over 70 straight bulls eyes at 1,000 yards with a borrowed 03 Springfield with open sights. He finally had to stop shooting when it got too dark to see the targets.

Hi
well there is a huge differens between target shooting and game shooting. even with a 22 lr you can shot very well up to 200 yards and more, but it would not qualify 22 lr as an effective hunting round upp to 200 yards. in my younger days 1950 and 60s. i,ve tried a lot of army guns including long mauser with 198 grain boat tail @2500 fps and hs 150 grain loads and 3006 with both m1 and m2 rounds , 150 grain flat base and 173 grain rounds. long rane accuracy of heavier bullets in both caliber was amazingly good . we shot at 500 meter distance only to chek the guns. the lighter 150 grain were not at all as good. i've never tried 7,62x54R ,but as i've read they are loaded with pointed 150 gr . i don't beleive these light bullets are so good at longer range. my question was about effective hunting range not army effective wounding range as army rounds are made for wounding not killing at first place.
regaeds
yazid

Have you ever considered that the author of whatever you read might have been lying? Believe it or not they do that sometimes.

If he was talking about Russian hunters using Russian rifles and hunting in Russia, you might also factor in that when you are REALLY hungry you might take longer shots than a more responsible hunter (with a full stomach) would normally take.

I also doubt that he listed the number of misses and wounded/lost game for every one that was actually killed.

If your question is whether or not Russian rifles and ammo are magical then the obvious answer is no.

It is also worth noting that the distances on original M91 sights were not in either yards or meters, IIRC. I believe they were in units called "arshins" (sp?). Again, IIRC, an arshin is about 30", which would make the "600" setting equivalent to about 500 yards, not 600. I'm sure someone here can be more exact about that.....

An Arshin was a unit of measurement used in old Russia and is equal to 0.7112 meters.

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
hi
I 've heared and read about russian rifles shooting att very long range with rather anemic rounds like 7,62x39 or 7,6x54 and killing big game att distance upp to 800 meters(900 yards). I wonder what make them so effective? in a test about veper(308) the author claims 600 to800 meter as a normal hunting range . can you please explain this to me? 600 meter is a long range even a 300 weatherby magnum!!
regards
yazid

Any big-game kills made by the 7.62X54R or the 7.62X39mm rounds at the ranges you quote are:

1. Used by an extremely skilled marksman, or
2. Pure luck, or
3. Pure bullshit, or
4. A mixture of two or more of the above.

The same shots could be made with any number of non-Russian cartridges, as well.

But we all know that some Russian "inwented damn near everything", and these stories are in the same category......

(BTW, don't forget that Elmer Keith once killed a mulie buck at 600 yards with a 4" barreled .44 Magnum S&W revolver- in front of witnesses. Elmer admitted that "it was an accident. But I never would have had that accident if I hadn't tried the shot.")

i have a run-of-the-mill mosin nagant off the big5 shelf and am able to hit 700 yard pig silhouettes at Angeles Shooting Range with some Olympic (non-corrosive non-steel)

This is a bit off topic but I believe there was a a further modification of the Dragunov which converted it into a "bullpup" configuration. For those unfamiliar with the term it places the magazine and action behind the pistol grip/trigger assembly. The barrel retained it's original length, but the over all length of the weapon was shortened.

With a rifle of .30 caliber (.30-06, .308, 7.62x54, .303 Brit) you can hit regularly at 600 meters. That was the final stage of the old National Match courses for many many years. The Bullseye was big, yes, and it wasn't at all unusual to see people shoot clean at that range. I even watched a woman do it with a .243 M-1A. Do Russian guns shoot far? Sure, if they have enough powder, which the 7.62x39 does not, but don't sell the 7.62x54 short, or any of the other battle rifles cartridges, unless you want to be pushing up daises yourself.
LLS

I have an SKS that can easily hit human sized targets at 600 meters

And at Bisley they still shoot competitively out to 1,200 yards. Don't sell late 19th-early 20th Century rifles short; almost all of the older full-sized military cartridges can be deadly on people out to 5/8-to-3/4 mile, with AIMED fire not just volley-fire .

If one zeroed a rifle to be on at 800 or 900 meters, and one practices shooting targets at that distance... one would be surprised how easily it becomes after a while...

The 7.62 x 39 might be a little short for that kind of distance... but anything from a 223, on up can be made to be pretty accurate at 800 to 900 yds,

The real key is not the rifle... as they can be made pretty consistent, especially with consistent loads...

The key is training one's eye to be able to get use to that distance.... WW One Marines shooting German troops at those kind of distances had everything to do with practicing at those ranges and getting use to shooting targets at those ranges...back to the eye's ability to concentrate on those distances...

Varmint shooters who shoot sage rats at 300 and 400 yds, and prairie dogs at longer ranges, practice and get use to it... and not all of them need scopes with magnification up to 32 to 40 power or more to be able to do it....

besides I remember an article on people in the USA in Life Magazine, who were living over a hundred years, they had a few who had exceeded 110 yrs of age... not long afterwards, the Russians came out with articles claiming that Russian peasants in the Caucus Mountains were living from 150 to 170 years of age....

The Soviets always had to out do the other guy... I don't know if this was a Soviet issue or a Russian issue...

Of course we have plenty of old timers who claim they shot a deer at half a mile using a 30/30....

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
If one zeroed a rifle to be on at 800 or 900 meters, and one practices shooting targets at that distance... one would be surprised how easily it becomes after a while...

:

Quite true!! Palma shooters are restricted by the rules to the 7.62 NATO cartridge and no heavier than 155 gr. bullets, with iron sights only. They shoot 15 shots at each of 800, 900, and 1,000 yards in their matches. The bullseye at 1,000 yards is 24" diameter and the "X" or "V" tie-breaking ring half that. It is not at all unkown for a shooter to "clean" the 1,000 yard target. It is quite common for that to happen at 800, and pretty common at 900, too. These shooters are all firing prone, without any artificial front or rear rests.

anybody want to give the Unholy Triangle a test?

That's me, my G-grandfather's Krag and my Leica Geovid Laser rangefinder binoculars. Anywhere out to 1000 yards, all I want is two shots.

Rich
DRSS

The sights on the Mosin Nagant and most other rifles came at a time before Machine guns started ruling the roost and it was part of military doctorine of the age to have 200 soldiers or more slide the sights up to 1000 yards and fire as a group at an enemy position, Machine guns did away with this need, but the rifles were still in use, why retool the sights, just make sure they set them for shorter range.

Remember the next war is always fought with the tactics of the past one, so long range engagements were sort of the norm expected, so the rifles were built to suit.

I have only seen one or two M91's that had not had the sights recalibrated from Arshins to Metric, to know for sure the rear tangent slide will be curved and the numbers on the base will be struck thru.

After WW2, everyone looked at the German model, which was light rapid fire rifles with intermediary cartridges, intended for a 400 meter or less zone of combat, with GPMG and Sniper rifles to take care of anything beyond 400 meters, so the large full powered cartridges and rifles, gave way to smaller ones, that allowed controlled full auto fire and to work within the 400 meter zone.

Soviet Sniper rifles, usually M91/30 were usually hand selected for accuracy and them tuned and had optics mounted.

Finish rifles had both .308 bores and .310 (M39) and captured rifles, if suitably accurate were also pressed immediately into service, without being reworked if the situation demanded.

That's the story they feed for the military that uses AK's. 800 m is probably where the tired bullet falls.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
hi
I 've heared and read about russian rifles shooting att very long range with rather anemic rounds like 7,62x39 or 7,6x54 and killing big game att distance upp to 800 meters(900 yards). I wonder what make them so effective? in a test about veper(308) the author claims 600 to800 meter as a normal hunting range . can you please explain this to me? 600 meter is a long range even a 300 weatherby magnum!!
regards
yazid

Yes,
We refer to stories like that (600 to 800 meters a normal hunting range) as tall tales in the US.
They are tales no one is expected to believe, they are just told for amusement. I am sure the Ruskies tell some tall ones too.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
anybody want to give the Unholy Triangle a test?

That's me, my G-grandfather's Krag and my Leica Geovid Laser rangefinder binoculars. Anywhere out to 1000 yards, all I want is two shots.

Rich
DRSS

Ever tried that old Krag out with a 190 grain Sierra Match???

Mine is amazing with what it will do at 500 yds!and open sites...

Just because some modern "riflemen" have not learned to shoot at ranges beyond 600 yards or so, certainly does NOT mean the equipment has been incapable of much better. The equipment has been able to shoot really well for over 130 years.

The first "possible" ever scored in a 15-shot match at 1,000 yards was posted on September 14, 1876 at Creedmoor Range by J.K. Milner of the Irish Rifle Team. He was shooting a MUZZLE-LOADING BLACKPOWDER .45 rifle by Rigby, which he had already fired 15 shots for record at each of 800 & 900 yards, WITHOUT having even wiped the bore.

His perfect score at 1,000 yards was the impetus to firms such as Sharps and Remington to produce even more accurate breech-loaders. In the next year's match, held at Wimbledon, England, L.C. Bruce posted a score for the American team of 74 of 75 possible points at 800, 72/75 at 900 yards, and 73/75 at 1,000 yards, for at total of 219 of a possible 225 points for the whole match. He was shooting a Sharps.

On September 15, 1877, Sergeant Gilder of the British Team scored 16 consecutive bullseyes at 1,000 yards using a 44-90-500 Sharps.

To conjecture that 30 years later these folks would not have been able to shoot with deadly effectiveness at 1,000 yards or more with cartridges such as the 8x57 Mauser or the 7.62 x 54R is probably not consistent with the facts as they existed.

So it seems like it's the ammo and the shooter, not the country of manufacturing.