I have never agreed or understood the conceptual use of the term "Assualt Rifle" and after a brief arguement with a 'liberal type' I sought out a description. And taken from Wikipedia, an "Assualt Rifle" is:
"The term assault rifle is a translation of the German word Sturmgewehr (literally meaning "storm rifle"), "storm" used as a verb being synonymous with assault, as in "to storm the compound". Sturmgewehr was coined by Adolf Hitler to describe the Maschinenpistole 44, subsequently re-baptized Sturmgewehr 44, the firearm generally considered the first widely-used assault rifle and served to popularize the concept. The translation “assault rifle†gradually became the common term for similar firearms sharing the same technical definition as the name giver StG 44. In a strict definition, a firearm must have all of the following five characteristics to qualify as an assault rifle:

1] Is a carbine sized individual weapon with provision to be fired from a shouldered position.
2] Barrel length is usually 400 mm to 500 mm (16†to 20â€)
3] Is capable of selective fire.
4] Fires from a locked breech.
5] Utilizes an intermediate powered-cartridge.
Ammunition is supplied from a large capacity detachable box magazine.
Most common is a capacity of 30 rounds, sometimes 20 rounds.
The following features are commonly found on assault rifles, but those are not exclusive to assault rifles, as those features are shared with many submachine guns, battle rifles, automatic rifles and machine guns:

Protruding pistol grip.
Folding, retractable or otherwise collapsible shoulder stock.
Bipod
Muzzle device like a muzzle brake or a flash suppressor.
There are commentators who use the expression “assault rifle†more loosely to include other types of arms, particularly arms that fall under a strict definition of the battle rifle, or civilian semi-automatic off-shoots of military rifles for commercial or political reasons. Some militaries of nations outside of the English-speaking world also have a different definition of assault rifle. For instance, the analogous term in the Swedish Armed Forces is automatkarbin (literally "automatic carbine") which includes both assault rifles and battle rifles.

Now, given that "In a strict definition, a firearm must have all of the following five characteristics to qualify as an assault rifle:

1] Is a carbine sized individual weapon with provision to be fired from a shouldered position.
2] Barrel length is usually 400 mm to 500 mm (16†to 20â€)
3] Is capable of selective fire.
4] Fires from a locked breech.
5] Utilizes an intermediate powered-cartridge.
Ammunition is supplied from a large capacity detachable box magazine.
Most common is a capacity of 30 rounds, sometimes 20 rounds. "

My question, why was not the US GI Carbine the first "Assualt Rifle?" IT definitely was here before the Sturmgewehr 44, there was one heck of a lot more of them made, and the M2 version meets all the five requirements. Anyone have an explanation for this seeming descrepancy???

altho using pistol ammo, these too:

PPSh 41

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/ppsh41.html

suomi

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

and,
Fallshirmjagergewehr 42

http://www.magweb.com/sample/sbwire/sbw22fal.htm

French RSCG 1918, used a cartridge based on .401 Winchester self loading brass modified to accept a 8mm Lebel bullet, was tested and adopted right before the end of WW1.
French were really ahead, they had the semi auto RSCG 1917 in 8 x 50 mm Lebel, the Chauchat and the 13 mm antiaircraft HMG.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
altho using pistol ammo, these too:

PPSh 41

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/ppsh41.html

suomi

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

and,
Fallshirmjagergewehr 42

http://www.magweb.com/sample/sbwire/sbw22fal.htm

FG 42 used the full power round 8 x 57mm not an intermediate power ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by HiTecPro:

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
altho using pistol ammo, these too:

PPSh 41

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/ppsh41.html

suomi

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

and,
Fallshirmjagergewehr 42

http://www.magweb.com/sample/sbwire/sbw22fal.htm

FG 42 used the full power round 8 x 57mm not an intermediate power ammo.

Correct - the 'intermediate round' was the 7.92X33 Kurtz cartridge used in the Stg.44 assault rifle. The Kurtz cartridge was similar in both appearance and performance to the 7.62X39 that came to light in the SKS and later the AK. Interestingly enough, the Fg-42 was designed to use the intermdiate cartridge but the Luftwaffe insisted on the full-power weapon and so it used the 8X57 round.
It was later found the lightweight rifle lacked the necessary strength to handle powerful rifle ammunition in full automatic mode. Guess we never learn as the M14 in full auto is a total disaster re controllability and aimed fire.
The cost of the FG-42 was a further limitation as it was expensive, especially when compared to the contempory StG.44.
Interesting subject here would be the use of these weapons as the design bed for future developemnts - I have always heard the M60 was derived from the MG-42, i.e.; the feed mechanism, barrel change system, etc. I'm sure other bits and pieces were picked off and used as well.

The FG 42 was designed to use the full power cartridge since day one.
I suggest reading Hans Dieter GÖTZ " German military rifle and machine pistols 1871-1945"
wonderful book

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
The FG 42 was designed to use the full power cartridge since day one.
I suggest reading Hans Dieter GÖTZ " German military rifle and machine pistols 1871-1945"
wonderful book

Don't suppose we will ever know for certain but some authorities think it was conceived around the Kurtz cartridge:
"Hermann Göring, at the time the commander of the German air force (Luftwaffe), insisted that his paratroopers be supplied with an advanced self-loading rifle. Friction with the army led to an independent development by the Luftwaffe as the paratroopers were part of the air force and not of the army. The so-called LC-6 specifications mentioned amongst others that the weapon should not exceed one metre in length, should not be significantly heavier than the K98 bolt action rifle, should be able to fire semi-automatic from a closed bolt, and full-automatic from an open bolt from 10 round or 30 round magazines. In spite of the development of the promising 7.92x33 mm cartridge (that led eventually to Sturmgewehr 44, the first assault rifle) the full power standard 7,92x57 mm round, used in the K98 bolt-action rifle and the machineguns, was retained.
Six manufacturers were given contracts but only a few prototypes are known to have been submitted. The design by Rheinmetall-Borsig designed by Louis Stange was accepted for mass production by Heinrich Krieghoff of Suhl (fzs) and L.O. Dietrich of Altenburg (gcy). However, due to design faults, the weapon had to be modified twice, increasing its serviceability but also its weight and cost." This was taken from Wikipedia, etc.

And from "Modern Firearms, Military Rifles":
"It must be noted that the HWaA (Army department of armaments) was quite reluctant about feasibility of the selective-fire full power rifle; at that time Army seriously suggested the intermediate 7.92x33 Kurtz cartridge and much more reasonable Mkb.42 automatic carbines, which later evolved into Stg.44 assault rifle. But the Luftwaffe insisted on the full-power weapon."

I have also read but cannot quote the source that many of the 'teething' problems were due to the rifle having been designed for the Kurtz and then use of the more powerful 7.92X57.
Good story!

quote:

FG 42 used the full power round 8 x 57mm not an intermediate power ammo.

yes, but-

inline stock, hi-cap mag, select fire

and issued.

well on the way.

I don't think (correct me) that a rifle in this configuration, that is the inline stock, was toyed with until after the war when the british developed a bullpup rifle in a reduced caliber, did not adopt it.

then the M16 later, of course.

edmond- when did the french bullpup come into use?

I'm not Edmond but the French 'publically' introduced the FAMAS in June of 1973 - This new 5.56mm bullpup 'Fusil Automatique,'better known as the FA MAS, or FAMAS, was supposedly in work since sometime about 1967. The French have always been rather secretive about their weapons. I saw a 7.62X33 weapon - same as the GI Carbine round - in use by some French Marines ("Troupes de marine") in 1964-65 and I have never yet seen any reference to the arms they were carrying - still would like to know more about them.
Come on, Edmond, réponse, svp.

I think you have defined the "modern" assult rifle. I believe the 1st assult rifle was the 1892 or 1894 winchester lever action. Although not selective fire, it was state of the art at its time.

Actually it would have the Turks armed with Winchester Model 1866 lever actions against the Russians at Plevna, if I recall correctly.

The Germans designed the STG44 to fill two specific roles; replace the battle rifle at normal combat ranges (<400yds) and the machine pistol for close quarters combat.

Battle rifle cartridges then in use, M1 Garand, 8mm Mauser, and SMLE, had all been designed when horses were commonplace on the battlefield and needed to be shot. Requirements had changed. The Germans looked at how infantry combat was taking place and designed a single weapon to replace several then in use. It would have been standard issue.

The M1 Garand was entirely different. It was designed simply as a lightweight longarm to be issued to troops who would normally be issued a sidearm.

The M1 was designed to meet an entirely different set of requirements and is not an assault rifle.

I'm sure China Fleet meant the M1 Carbine, not the Garand, as lightweight and to replace the 1911.

Bud W

Would you believe the Rooskie Federov in 6.5 Arisaka?


Federov here


The Fedorov Avtomat was an early self-loading battle rifle[1][2][3] designed by Vladimir Grigoryevich Fedorov and made in Russia. Only 3200 Fedorov rifles were manufactured between 1919 and 1924 in the city of Kovrov. The weapon saw combat in the Russian Civil War, and the last conflict in which Fedorov rifles were used was the Winter War with Finland in 1940, when some Fedorov rifles were withdrawn from storage and issued to elite units of Red Army. The Fedorov Avtomat is sometimes considered to be an early predecessor to the modern assault rifle, due to its relatively light weight compared to other automatic rifles of the time and selective-fire capabilities.
Contents

chasing a link from ireload's post above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cei-Rigotti

quote:

Originally posted by Bud W:
I'm sure China Fleet meant the M1 Carbine, not the Garand, as lightweight and to replace the 1911.

Bud W

You're right, meant to say "M1 carbine" in the third paragraph.

A boneheaded mistake. My only excuse is I have Garands on my mind. I love them and have several. But I own not a single carbine. No desire.

I've met too many Korean war veterans who hate the carbine to really want one.

A lot of good answers here in regards to criteria, but, my own definition is a bit simpler and doesnt give the antis ammunition for their campaigns.
I would describe "assault rifle" not as a particular type or class of firearms, but as a single individual weapon with which someone has illegaly assaulted another individual.
And isnt that what we've been asking all along that the laws be applied to?

I would say the StG43. Why? Because it was the first firearm (that I know of) with the "Assault Rifle" (Sturmgewehr) designation.

The Mkb.42(H) is pretty close.... but fires from an open bolt.

The first mass produced "assault rifle" .... the StG44.

Don't discount the M1 Carbine. Yes, it backed into the role of being a front line weapon. And ballistically compared to the German or later Russian assault cartridges it sucks. But here we have a very reliable (in function), compact/lightweight, mass-produced high capacity rifle that the tip-of-the-spear troops quickly realized it's usefulness. By 1943 there were a million or two in hand. By 1944 double the number.

You can have the greatest design of all times on paper....but what good does it do if you can't produce it in numbers and put it out there where it counts. And win.

Winchester `66

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:
I'm not Edmond but the French 'publically' introduced the FAMAS in June of 1973 - This new 5.56mm bullpup 'Fusil Automatique,'better known as the FA MAS, or FAMAS, was supposedly in work since sometime about 1967. The French have always been rather secretive about their weapons. I saw a 7.62X33 weapon - same as the GI Carbine round - in use by some French Marines ("Troupes de marine") in 1964-65 and I have never yet seen any reference to the arms they were carrying - still would like to know more about them.
Come on, Edmond, réponse, svp.

A first bullpup was made and used by french Renault FT17 tank crews.
Another weapon supplied to them was a firing port weapon, using the Chauchat mag and the 8 x 50 Lebel full power round.
French developed carabine mitrailleuse / machine carrbines / Maschinen Karabiner in intermediate calibers during the last months of WW1.
There were many designs ready to be adopted when WW1 broke and abandoned because of WW1.
In fact a new ammo was adopted in 1913 to replace the rimmed Lebel round and a semi auto Meunier rifle was adopted.
After WW1, all studies were resumed and the whole equipment of French forces was to be replaced
New LMG, adopted 1924 became Chatellerault 24 modified 29
SMG 1922 also known as carabine mitrailleuse STA 22 adopted as MAS 1924
New rifles, bolt action (became MAS 36) and semi auto ( became 38, 38 A, MAS 40, then MAS 44 , MAS 49, 49/56)
New HMG in 13 mm Hotchkiss ( inspired Browning's MA Deuce)adopted 1918
New pistol, etc..
except the 24/29 , all was postponed because of budget and the Maginot line.

after WW2, the german team under Vorgrimmler supervision worked in Alsace at AME ( Mulhouse) and built weapons derived from StG 45 using 7.92 X 33, 7.62 X 33, 7.62 X 40 and .30 Carbine rounds.
France been engaged in Indochina war and abandonned the projects in 1948 and Vorgrimmler proposed CETME in Madrid, the results of the french tax payers money that became the CETME A then CETME B , modelo of 58, wich became G3 when Germany bought the license.
Bullpups were built in 1952 for intermediate rounds and the newly born NATO round but adoption was delayed.
A MAS 1962 was adopted but production delayed because of increased spending for armor, tactical nukes and strategical nukes developments launched by General de Gaulle.

The delayed opening of the 1948/ 1952 prototypes will be used in the LMG AAT 52 then AANF1 standard LMG here ( a prototype was adopted in .50 BMG but never produced )

Decision was taken to build the G3 then the HK 33 in Saint Etienne ( I used some of these MAS Made) but in 1967, the FA MAS was born using the bases of the 1952 prototypes.
it was adopted officially in 1973 but I saw the first to be in use six years later when in ROTC. in 1978, French used the french produced SIG Manurhin in Lebanon after the operation in Kolwesi, 1976 had shown the urgent need for such weapons.

I tried to make my answer short but there is much more to say.

HTH

quote:

Originally posted by TrapperP:

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
The FG 42 was designed to use the full power cartridge since day one.
I suggest reading Hans Dieter GÖTZ " German military rifle and machine pistols 1871-1945"
wonderful book

Don't suppose we will ever know for certain but some authorities think it was conceived around the Kurtz cartridge:
"Hermann Göring, at the time the commander of the German air force (Luftwaffe), insisted that his paratroopers be supplied with an advanced self-loading rifle. Friction with the army led to an independent development by the Luftwaffe as the paratroopers were part of the air force and not of the army. The so-called LC-6 specifications mentioned amongst others that the weapon should not exceed one metre in length, should not be significantly heavier than the K98 bolt action rifle, should be able to fire semi-automatic from a closed bolt, and full-automatic from an open bolt from 10 round or 30 round magazines. In spite of the development of the promising 7.92x33 mm cartridge (that led eventually to Sturmgewehr 44, the first assault rifle) the full power standard 7,92x57 mm round, used in the K98 bolt-action rifle and the machineguns, was retained.
Six manufacturers were given contracts but only a few prototypes are known to have been submitted. The design by Rheinmetall-Borsig designed by Louis Stange was accepted for mass production by Heinrich Krieghoff of Suhl (fzs) and L.O. Dietrich of Altenburg (gcy). However, due to design faults, the weapon had to be modified twice, increasing its serviceability but also its weight and cost." This was taken from Wikipedia, etc.

And from "Modern Firearms, Military Rifles":
"It must be noted that the HWaA (Army department of armaments) was quite reluctant about feasibility of the selective-fire full power rifle; at that time Army seriously suggested the intermediate 7.92x33 Kurtz cartridge and much more reasonable Mkb.42 automatic carbines, which later evolved into Stg.44 assault rifle. But the Luftwaffe insisted on the full-power weapon."

I have also read but cannot quote the source that many of the 'teething' problems were due to the rifle having been designed for the Kurtz and then use of the more powerful 7.92X57.
Good story!

since day one, the FG 42 was developed for the 8x57 after the intensive use of MP38 then 40 had clearly shown the tactical limits of SMGs.

Beware of what is said in Wikipedia about history of armament, it is posted by people and corrected by other people, not always as I corrected the MP18 topic by adding what I know by being the owner of one and having searched for years all available datas.
I noticed after correction that it was erased by those who started the topic, the difference between these people and me is that I do own and shoot one and have had talks with persons in the know worldwide.

but it does not please people to be contradicted when they have said things that could not be verified for decades and suddenly a Frog pops up with new infos and the real stuff.

Marstar.ca is now offering semi-auto only MP-38, Stg 44. Theya re calling them BD-38 and BD-44. As I recall they are asking $2000-3000. Unfortunately, it appears as though importing these from Canada is a major hassle.

Eric

what about a FG 42? here you go http://www.ssd-weapon.com/produkte/fg42/fg42.htm

Looks they are already available in US.

Edmond,

I have conducted a cursory search of the web and have not been able to find a distributor in the US. Do you have any further information?

Regards,
Eric

Ask the French! http://www.fg42.us/

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Ask the French! http://www.fg42.us/

On this one I have to disagree - the author, French or whatever, states: "The "straight line" layout was also copied widely. An example of a modern weapon evolved from the FG 42 is the American M60" - I can't buy that. If he had said the MG42 then I would concur but the FG42 - no. Stoner, maybe some others, ok - but not the M60.

BTW, Edmond, I finally found the article in the book, "Guns of the World" where in the authors, two Frenchmen, by the by, state the Italian Villar-Perosa was the World's first submachine gun. I'll try and translate the article and post back exactly (?) what they have to say in this regard. Be prepared, they credit the Villar-Perosa, the MP-18 and the Thompson as the source from which all later ubmachine guns were developed. Surprise, surprise. eh?

The author is american, this is a US company site. ask the French was adressed to find the right info.

quote:

they credit the Villar-Perosa, the MP-18 and the Thompson as the source from which all later ubmachine guns were developed. Surprise, surprise. eh?

Not really..

Villar Perosa is the first automatic gun to use a pistol ammo but it can't be called a SMG when seeing it and the way it was used.



Enjoy:
http://www.securityarms.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5

Enjoy again:
http://www.securityarms.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1400

Assault rifle ?. What constitutes an assault weapon any way ?. I believe that distinction way belong to the Chinese !. They did invent the first firearm didn't they ?.

It's interesting to look up the Word " Assault " !. No weapons of any kind are mentioned !.
How ever there now has been an introduction of WMD !!!!!!!!!!.

Remember ; Those with the ability to pay are always punished for those without the ability to pay !. It's in the Dummycratic gun code !...

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
The author is american, this is a US company site. ask the French was adressed to find the right info.

quote:

they credit the Villar-Perosa, the MP-18 and the Thompson as the source from which all later ubmachine guns were developed. Surprise, surprise. eh?

Not really..

Villar Perosa is the first automatic gun to use a pistol ammo but it can't be called a SMG when seeing it and the way it was used.




Enjoy:
http://www.securityarms.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5

Enjoy again:
http://www.securityarms.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1400

Edmond:
The book I referenced is entitled "Modern Firearms" and is authored by Yves Cadiou and Alphonse Richard. I think they have a misprint/typo in the article re submachine guns where in they refer to a "Beretta M1918" with two types, one full-auto only and one with two triggers offering select fire - think they mean the M38 Beretta?
Interesting book with some dfferent articles. Do you know this book?

The Beretta 1918 arrived at the end of WW1 and did not see combat, it was the ancestor of the 1938.

More later.

Bit heavy and not quite an assault rifle but didn't the BAR appear late in 1918. Can't think of anythings as conventional at that time?

Just throwing this out there. Look up the Mexican Mondragon model 1910. It was selective fire, magazine fed, adopted by the Mexican army. It was chambered for 7mm Mauser. Used by the Germans in WWI in limited numbers. Manufactured by the Swiss for the Mexican government. It could be considered and assault rifle, just with full powered rounds, but since the FG42 is considered an assault rifle, I don't see why the Mondragon isn't as well. The M1 carbine did not get a selective fire model until it was the M2, which might have been right after WWII. Not sure on that one. Anyway, I consider the M1 carbine to be more of a submachine gun in that case.

Select fire?

I agree with Bill, the first "assault rifles" have to be either Winchester 1866s or Civil War vintage Spencer Carbines.

LLS

The world's first assault rifle issued to troops and used in combat was indeed the StG 44, or Sturm Gewehr 44. What distinguished it from the submachine guns used before that (called "machine pistols" in Europe) was that it fired an intermediate, RIFLE type cartridge rather than a cartridge that was initially designed for use in handguns. I'm sure Hitler would have alled it a Sturm Gewehr even if it did not have a protruding pistol grip. He liked "sturm" things! But the high-cap magazine was necessary for the intended uses (tactical application).

The NEXT assault rifle to appear was the AK-47, first issued in 1947. An earlier rifle that used the same round as the AK-47 (7.62X39mm) was the SKS of 1945, which is NOT an assault rifle.

Stricktly spoeaking, from the military point of view, to be an assault rifle the weapon must:

Use an intermediatre size cartridge like the 5.56mm NATO or 7.62X39mm; AND be capable of BOTH FULL and SEMI-AUTO fire on a selective basis. A weapon that is ONLY capable of semi-aut fire is NOT an assault rifle, as defined by the U.S. military! Nor is the U.S. rifle cal. .30 M1 and the M14.

ONLY uninformed media types (the same ones who talk about DUM-DUM bullets when speaking of expanding projectiles) refer to a semi-auto as an "assault rifle". To these morons, a Remington 742 or Browning BAR are "assault rifles" because they fire without having to manually reload the chamber for each shot. Some of these turkeys have even referred to the M1911A1 .45 auto pistol as an "assault pistol"!

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

Would this be good for duck hunting?

Lame ducks only.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Lame ducks only.

Salut, Edmond, vous êtes rapide !