I have a beautiful Mauser M1891. Extremely accurate. One problem,
however. I can only get three loading out of the brass. New brass.
Formed brass. Doesn't matter. Only three loadings before the rounds
will not chamber. Seem to hit about halfway up on the neck.

I've tried trimming the cases. I've always full length resized.
I've switched bullets. I've switched powder. I've varied the powder
charge. Nothing helps.

The first time a case is loaded it chambers easily. The second time
it is a bit still. The third time it is darn hard. You'd have to
use a hammer to close the bolt on the fourth time.

I'm starting to wonder if there is something wrong with my full
length resizing die so I'll change that out next.

Any suggestions?

klw,
I assume you are referring to a 1888 Commission rifle which may have been issued to Turkey and chambered for 8mm Turk. This round is slightly shorter than the german 8x57 and smaller than in the shoulder thus 8x57 dies will not size the final bit of the shoulder.

Sometimes these rifles were opened up to take the german round and the action was fitted with guide rails riveted to the magazine opening.
I have an 88 just like that with similar problems

Forgot one IMPORTANT point. The gun is chambered in 7.65x53.

I just answered your question in the other thread.

C.

I have one of the Argie 1891 Mausers by Lowes, a very nice rifle indeed! Thick necks or too long a case seem to be a critical problem in mine. I have not cast the chamber, but it seems to be of minimum dimensions. I have to adjust my full length die (Hornady)completely against the shell holder to produce a round that will chamber.

Good luck!!

I have nine rounds left from the last batch. One chambers easily. The other eight do not. I've miked everything trying to find a difference. I can not. There has to be something but I can not find it.

Even the rounds that don't chamber seem to be within specs as judged by the drawing in the latest Lyman Handbook.

All the fired cases chamber easily.

I took all the dies out of the press and redid them. Didn't help.

.........There is something going on, obviously. Lets eliminate the chamber first. For one thing, it's dimensions aren't going to change. What DOES change? Realisticly only one factor in the equation, and that's your brass.

" Seem to hit about halfway up on the neck."

Why? What makes you think so? This kind of stuff is hard to chase by not being able to see it or be there. It leads to all kinds of questions about how, and what did you do or not do. Some germane and others just WAGS.

This just may be a WAG, and is predicated upon info NOT given but here goes. There is the possibility for 2 scenarios:

1) Easiest is that your FL dies are in fact NOT resizing the casehead sufficiently. Each loading allows them to expand a bit more until they gradually become hard to chamber.

A) Look at your brass at a shallow angle as it comes from the die to see how far down it really does size. Or, draw a stripe on the case from the extractor groove to the casemouth. Then size and see the effect of the die on the case. Your die may not be setting the shoulder back when using it F/L.

B) Take one case and your mike to the range. Mike the easy to chamber casehead and fire. Re-load it, fire it and mike it, etc.

C) Mike the casehead of an easy to chamber case against one you have that requires considerable force to chamber.

2) Second WAG is lug setback. If the lugs have setback into the locking shoulders, the displaced steel hasn't disappeared. Instead it has formed a ridge the lug must raise up over before dropping into it's seat.

A) Caselength may grow enough at each firing so as to cause the bolt to actually be forcing the caseneck against the step in the chamber.

B) Ditto the above, but affecting the shoulder.

C) Casehead expansion interfering, or EVERYTHING above.

I have 6 rifles chambered in the 7.65 Arg. Three M91 Infantry rifles, a Engineer's carbine and 2 M1909 Cavalry short rifles. What I can tell you for sure, is that when using my Lee dies to resize 8x57 brass, they did not form the shoulder back far enough. I had to turn about .100" off the bottom of the die.

All I do now is a neck sizing for each batch of brass reserved for each rifle. This is done in a backed off F/L die, or Lee collet die. To increase cartridge case life, I maintain brass for each of my rifles, regardless of what it is, in batches of 20 or 50, in slip top boxs. This way I can keep track of: Firings, Annealings, and Trimmings.

Eventually cases WILL have to be F/L sized, as the shoulder will be in firm contact with the chamber due to these repeated firings. Since 98% of what I shoot is cast lead, this normally takes place at about the 5th to 8th loading. Other than that (which I consider normal) I have no problems specific to the 7.65 Argentine such as what you're mentioning.

...........Buckshot

Now that was a REALLY useful answer. Thanks!

Flagstaff has several gunsmiths. A couple really good. A couple that, well, aren't. Flagstaff also has one REALLY good one but I think he's retired. Tomorrow I'll call him anyway.

Gard Reeder (Gary Reeder Custom Guns) looked the gun and ammunition over for me. He painted one of my reloads, one that would not chamber easily, with a black markalot and then chambered it in a second rifle. The ink was disturbed half way up the neck. No where else.

I think that I may have found the problem.

I went and found my other set of 7.65x53 reloading dies. The ones I had been using were Lyman. The ones I had stuck away in a draw were RCBS. I tried the RCBS full length resizing die and the problem seems to have gone away.

This afternoon I'll load up another batch of ammunition using the RCBS dies. Tomorrow I'll go shoot it. I'll make sure to use cases that previously were EXTREMELY difficult to chamber when loaded. If it is the full length resizing die, tomorrow's ammunition should work perfectly. If it does not, well, it will not be the first time in life that I was wrong!

Thanks for all the suggestions!

I would be interested in hearing what difference you were able to mike between case neck diameters, the ones sized in the Lyman die vs those sized in the RCBS!! I have an M 1909 in the same caliber, and have never experienced that proble, but I am using a Redding sizing die....

[ 08-24-2003, 23:54: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

........Ken, "I went and found my other set of 7.65x53 reloading dies. The ones I had been using were Lyman. The ones I had stuck away in a draw were RCBS. I tried the RCBS full length resizing die and the problem seems to have gone away."

I hope that does it for'ya. As I said, I had to shorten my Lee die too. WHy they're like that I don't know.

........Buckshot

I'm currently shooting my 2nd 1891 in 7.65x53mm. This one is the "Engineer" carbine, the previous one was a "sporterized" rifle which I improved.

With the first rifle, some 35 years ago, I used the Lee Loader hand tool to load many rounds of ammunition. Brass was very hard to come by, costing $20 a box (in 1970 $) and I used the heck out of it. The load was 43 gr. IMR 4064, the Hornady 174 gr. RN and the CCI LR primer. It was my only rifle for a bit and I shot it a lot, so I probably reloaded the brass at least 10 times each. In that rifle, with that set-up, I never had the problem you describe.

I still have that original brass, and much of it was loaded when I got my second 1891, the "Engineer" Carbine. I also have some 1970s Norma factory ammo, and feeling flush, bought some more Norma ammo. All the Norma factory feeds like greased lightning and has done so for at least 5 reloads.

On the other hand, my old reloads and brass formed from 8x57mm brass chamber as you describe. It is very difficult to close the bolt that final �" or so. However, after firing, no problem. It is so difficult that there are in fact some long-ago-loaded rounds that I simply could not close the bolt on. So, I broke down all the ammo and resized in a new RCBS die (the Lee Loader is now relegated to the status of historical artifact). Still very hard to close the bolt on. AFTER firing, though, it works like a charm.

Now what could I do to make it easier to chamber that ammo for the first round? Why, it obviously has to go a bit deeper in the die. So, I ground a bit off the shell holder. .0015" was all that was necessary to provide a marvelous improvement. This also was a benefit in that I could modify a $5 part instead of a $30 part! that slight modification was enough to make that first time chambering a dream instead of a nightmare.

One other thing I noticed is that when 8x57mm brass is first formed, the shoulder area is not blown out far enough to be properly handled by the magazine lips. Only after the first firing can it be depend on to stay in the magazine while manipulating the bolt. Otherwise, one might have the magazine spontaneously disgorge it's entire contents in the midst of operations.

As with most military firearms, I believe that chamber dimensions might differ significantly. I can't verify that though, the first rifle had to be sacrificed on the altar of divorce.

If anyone out there has a M1891 rifle with a 20" barrel, Remington 700 front ramp, Williams FPRS, and sitting in a Fajen stock, let me know if you'd like to sell it. I've still got the SN to know if it is "mine".

BTW, my load for the carbine now uses the 215 gr. Woodleigh .312" RN and H4350 for between 2000 and 2100 fps from the short carbine barrel. This shoots with the issue sights.

I must also admit that this is the only one of Mauser's actions that I care for. There are many better, but they don't seem to be the correct size for my preference.

[ 08-29-2003, 01:54: Message edited by: Hobie ]