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One of Us |
On Monday History Channel will release a documental about the war at the sky. The trailer look very interesting. I know some of the guy, a couple of pilots and the filming crew. I do not know if it can be seen around the word or only locally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmAjFXBEGYM&NR=1 Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | ||
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Moderator |
I'll save you the trouble of watching: You lost! | |||
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One of Us |
Thanks Pete for your answer. I know it very well as I was a soldier in the continent during the actions. I should know that someone will give an answer like this. We both loose good people in that war that deserves to be remembered. Honour is in fighting not in wining. Thanks Martin. PS: please do not turn this post into a discussion. I just was that those interested in that war know about the scredule. Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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Moderator |
Martin, No intention of gloating...I looked at the link and it was in Spanish and my post was just a little reflective humor because I could not understand it! I never served down there, but I had friends who did and as you say, it was not good and I sincearly hope its never repeated. Politicians start these things but it is the blood of others thats gets spilled to bring them to a halt...And last I heard, the blood of Argintine soldiers is exactly the same colour as that of the Brits... Regards, Peter | |||
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One of Us |
Pete, Thank you very much. No problem I just try to consider both sides. If you look at the title you realize that I always use both names, Malvinas and Falcklands. No one of those that take the decisions on that war was actually on the islands, but those that suffer. I’m very critical about extreme positions. Considering the people involved in this film I think it would be objective. Hope so. Thanks Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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one of us |
I cannot believe that a gentlemen thats a moderator make jokes like this ,anybody who served has respect for other warriors ,besides that our pilots ,comandos and marines of BIM5 were considered great soldiers ,if you respect the bushido code you must show a bit of respect. dr juan pablo pozzi md.ex army scouts,ex air force surgeon,ministry of defense instructor. www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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Moderator |
juanpozzi, My appologies: just my black sense of humor about the programe not the war...Definately no offence intended to those who served nor to those who were lost.... Regards, Peter | |||
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one of us |
Interesting perspective, but in the end, the Argentinians lost. For What? So some authoritarian generals, in power, could give the People a distraction, from their misery and hopefully stay in office. No different than the Roman emperors and their circuses. Seems a total waste of human lives, on both sides, to me. The real Argentinian victory was that, in the end it discredited the military Leadership and the Junta fell. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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one of us |
You are rigth ,the politicians ,and that stupid old generals were more politicians than soldiers ,doesnt care about the sufferings of the warriors ,i prefer any english soldier than any argentine politician .Juan www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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one of us |
I have seen a program about this conflict. It was a British TV production, narrated by a British Navy Officer that was there. He gave the Argentine Airforce pilots High Praise for their Chivalary. They only attacked British war ships. The civilian transport vessels that were unarmed were not attacked. The film showed the Argentinians flying right past the unarmed "civilian" vessels to attack the warships. That is Honor in my book. The British Naval Officer was impressed with them. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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One of Us |
Those Argentine pilots demonstrated a lot of courage, flying out to the extreme range of their aircraft, over that expanse of cold water. Not much of a chance of a rescue if anything went wrong. Shotgun | |||
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one of us |
Agree to all. Definitely a nasty but short conflict, & of course delivered at a bad time (as if any war was ever convenient ..... ) Am thus offering a blessed RIP to all whom paid the ultimate price there. | |||
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One of Us |
Yhis documental is about the Argentine Air Force, but mor about the pilots fighting from the continet with obsolet planes. We have some Mirages and Super Etendert, but most were A4s. Thanks for your comments. Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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One of Us |
I see you don't read what the conservatives write in the political forum. | |||
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One of Us |
Thanks for the information on the show.... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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One of Us |
Now, now, BBBBrucieee. We conservatives have great respect for other warriors. But little for whiners like you. Do you ever post anything when you're not whining about how "mean" conservatives are to you? Regarding the deprecating humor Pete E expressed toward Argentina, I can't fault him for it. I'm sure the Argentines made insulting jokes about the Brits. It's healthy. If your military isn't making jokes about it's adversary, it probably doesn't stand much chance of winning. My first tour with the Navy was with fighting one eleven, which stood up in 1942. Our squadron patch was an insulting joke directed at the Japanese. Two Wildcats shooting down a rising sun. When I was with the squadron we twice hosted JASDF F-15 drivers who rode the carrier during exercises, and I had a hell of time trying to explain the meaning of our patch to those guys in terms they wouldn't find insulting. Because the fact of the matter was, that insignia was intended to give the finger to Japan. And 50 years after the war ended we were holding onto it. The bottom line is that we wouldn't be so proud of our victory if the Japanese were inept opponents. I know it seems contradictory, but the fact that the occasional insulting comment about Japan sometimes slips out in no way means we disrespect Japan. Because those guys were good. The modern insult toward Japan is that they're not creative. Hell, no! In 1941, launching a coordinated strike from 6 carrier decks sure as hell was creative. That's about all the creativity we in the USN would care to deal with. So on occasion we'll insult them in a joking manner. But when push comes to shove, we'd rather have them on our side than fighting against us. Because the fact of the matter is we wouldn't have learned to fight so well if the Japanese hadn't made it so necessary. | |||
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One of Us |
Good ol' chickenfeets-sailor. Now you see why hard sea trades think what they do about supply types? Supply trades like to think they're real sailors. After all, they do NBCD rounds don't they? They can tell the difference between an open and closed hatch, can't they? And talk about shiny shoes ...? | |||
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One of Us |
Well, that's what you'd rather talk about. Here's a thought: why don't you limit yourself to embarrassing yourself on the political forum? | |||
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one of us |
Someone gave the order to sink the General Belgrano... The ship was carrying wounded argentinean soldiers and was with a red cross on it... But anyway, as always some politicians enjoy playing war games with other ones lifes. L | |||
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One of Us |
How about we don't mix apples and oranges. On the one hand, we have the whole "warriors on all sides owing each other respect" thingy. On the other, we have the whole "was this specific combat action, sinking the General Belgrano, justified" thingy. | |||
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One of Us |
The General Belgrano left port, headed for the Falklands and then was recalled back home. At no time did the ship even sight the Falklands so there was no opportunity to take any wounded soldiers aboard. I like urban rumors as well as the next person but this is just too much. It is far better to know nothing at all than to know what ain't so. | |||
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One of Us |
Regardless of the controversy surrounding the sinking of the General Belgrano, I still can't make the connection between that specific action and some general duty warriors supposedly have to respect each other. The ex-USS Pheonix was a warship and ought to have been in a position to defend herself. If she was not, then maybe the Argentines have some explaining to do. I don't think I'm being unfair. We expect lesser ships in the USN to put up a good fight. The names "Pueblo" and "Liberty" come to mind. And those were auxiliaries for chrissakes, with nothing like the firepower of a WWII-era cruiser. I'm truly at a loss. On the one hand I'm confronted by the fact that several Argentine units conducted themselves bravely in this conflict. On the other, I'm forced to deal with the fact that the Argentinian Navy painted a Red Cross on the side of a proud warship and expected to get away with it. Every ship has a history to her. And I know for a fact that no one who crewed the USS Pheonix would have longed for his ship to be remembered as a defenseless victim. It would be far better to put a hole in her side make her into a reef. | |||
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One of Us |
Every man-jack aboard the General Belgrano was as brave and fine a man who ever lived. The Belgrano had no sonar nor any ASW weapons. She had two ancient escorts that had either no sonar or obsolete sonar and also did not have any effective ASW weapons. The national leadership sent a force out in harm's way that had no way of detecting or sinking a submarine. The national or naval leadership somehow thought that a merchant exclusion zone of 200 miles meant that there was no war between Britain and Argentina anywhere except within 200 miles of the Falklands. To top it off, the Belgrano ( Phoenix) was proceeding at 10 knots when hit! Maybe that was the CO's choice, maybe it came from HQ but there was some really stupid thinking going on there. To the Brits, it appeared that those three ships were loitering so as to run in to the islands under cover of darkness. | |||
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one of us |
Chop901, You are right, my memory was bad, these events happen many years ago. It seems there was no wounded soldiers there. I remember that there have been something wrong with the sinking of that ship. The wrong thing it was the ship being outside the exclusion area and not that was carrying wounded soldiers. But I am sure I read that somewhere, maybe war propaganda ? Yesterday I doubted of my memory so I googled the episode and there I saw that the problem was being sinked outside the exclusion area. We all know that was a bad decision taken by the argentinean militar goverment in a last try to stay in power. I am away from here, we must leave ol'wounds alone, there is no need to reopen them... L | |||
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new member |
Actually, I would not have considered A-4s obsolete in 1982. They were in use in many nations at the time, and from what I have read did a credible job in the Falklands/Malvinas. As a matter of fact the A-4D was used in the Navy Top Gun school as an adversary aircraft until about 1993, and was not officially retired from Navy service until 2003. | |||
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One of Us |
Thanks Doc for the info. We always thought they were obsolet by 1982. In any case the human factor was decisive as most planes were not working a few month before the war. They were reapaired and send to the action. BTW: most ejector seats were too old. CHina Fleet Sailor, Thanks I underestabnd your point. Yo may never hear abuot the "desmalvinización". After the war and for many years politics try to hide the soldiers from Falklands/Malvinas. They install the idea of "poor little kids" fighting against professional soldiers. We, those that were soldiers in the continent have not been recogniced yet. Thats why you can find different positions, but most in Argentine are proud of our soldiers but not about our politics. Hope this make it a little more clear. Thanks for all posts. Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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One of Us |
Many units, especially in what is left of the British Army, carry "symbols" of past defeated enemies. Mostly French it has to be said. The bearskin won by the Guards and the "eagles" by some armoured (now cavalry) regiments - including our Guards cavalry - are reminders even today of Waterloo and 1815! So little difference to China Fleet's squadron patch...just different wars. But I do wonder how French Presidents must "blanch" when given a welcoming parade by the Household Division! Or indeed do visiting British Prime Ministers ever ask why your White House is white! | |||
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Moderator |
Chops901 The Belgrano was sunk just outside the Exclusion Zone whole she was sailing in a circular "holding pattern".. At the beginning of the Conflict the British Government made the Argentine Government aware that military action would not be confined to the Exclusion Zone...The Argentine Government responded in kind... Even after the Conflict, the Argentines acknowledged the Belgrano was a legitimate threat to the Task Force and particularly the British land forces...IIRC correctly, she had some pretty impressive naval guns with a relatively modern fire control system...added to that, being "old school" she was armoured way beyond anything the British Navy had.. With regards the Belgrano's lack of AW capability, the British assumed she had subs of her own as part of the battle group.. Getting back to the Exclusion Zone, the conflict was difinately not limted to that as the Brits also put SF troops onto the Argentine mainland as part of a failed mission to attack some of the southern airbases. Additionaly, don't forget the so called "black buck" Vulcan raids on Stanley Airport, the longest bombing runs in history at the time..Those had very little to do with attacking the airfield, but were an implicit threat to the Argentine mainland... The only reason we didn't attack was that we lacked an effective means of doing so without going nuclear...If the RN had been equipped with conventionally armed Tomahawk's as they are today, without a doubt that they would been used... | |||
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One of Us |
Here's the White House Historical Association answer as to why the White House is White! http://www.whitehousehistory.o...tivities_01/c02.html | |||
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One of Us |
Thanks Pete. So there was an atack to main land? That put us, soldiers on the continent in a different place. Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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Moderator |
Martin, If that book ever arrives, it will explain what happened in detail. Basically the idea was to land a reinforced squadron of the SAS onto the main land and attack one of the major airbases where the Super Etendard & Mirage were based... IIRC the recce group landed, but everything went wrong from there and the main mission was aborted. If you recall a British helicopter "crashed" in Chile after getting "lost"...That was carrying the recce troops..I don't recall exactly what went wrong at that point, but for an "elite regiment", certain Officers in 22 SAS did not come out of the affair looking very good... Regards, Peter | |||
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Moderator |
Martin, Have you ever heard any rumours about American "mercenaries" fighting with your guys on the Islands??? These rumours have been circulating for years and I have heard them from several credable sources, including from some of our guys who were actually there. Regards, Peter | |||
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One of Us |
Hi Pete, Thank you very much, the book have not arrived yet, but this usually happend up to a couple of moths. I have not heard about "american mercenaries" but I will ask some friends about it. We had a very small comando group, very well trained and efective. Thanks for sharing, I could not find any book in English with the "argentine side". Some friend says that if they positioned the Belgrano at Stanley, the war would have a different ending. Thanks Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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one of us |
Once I met a chap that that fought in that war. He was 19th at that moment I think. He told me a story that I don't know if it is true. It seems that one night he was in a small building or something similar in a hill with two more soldiers and that in a hill infront him was another group in a similar situation. Everyone received the order to turn off radios till 9pm. At 9pm the soldier in charge decided to wait 15 more minutes to turn the radio on because he has a bad feeling. Some minutes after 9 pm they heard a big explosion. A british bomb explode the other radio team infront them. It seems the decision of waiting some minutes save their lifes. It's this posible ? Does the britain has some kind of bombs that follow radio waves or something similar at that moment ? I saw him a couple of times more and that was all. He was a little weird and some friends in common told me that he was a very nice chap before the war but that he never recovered completely after that. L | |||
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one of us |
Interesting and good discussion, despite attempts to include typical political forum "stuff". As I recollect the Falkland Islands war had little popular support in England, where, other than the BBC weather reports (that always included the Falkland Islands), most people didn't even know where they were and why British blood should be shed to defend it. Certainly the British response was delayed, with the fleet taking forever to get there! Any comments from Blighty? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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One of Us |
A-4 would not have been at such a disadvantage if not for a one detail. They had no counter part to the Sidewinder the Harriers carried | |||
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One of Us |
I don't know what the Brits have but the US has had anti-radiation missiles for maybe 30 years. In the mid 1980's I worked on a project that is probably long obsolete by now. It permitted rapid triangulation of radiation sources. This permitted any force available such as air or artillery to respond quickly. | |||
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one of us |
I vividly remember the events of April 1982. The response from the British press was one of indignation and outrage, and I think that accuratly reflected the public mood. There was a huge public turnout to the the fleet off. I was living in Southampton, the port from where many of the fleet sailed, and I remember seeing convoys of vehicles and troops on the move to the port. I don't believe that there was any delay in assembling the fleet. It was a huge task. Requisitioned civilian ships carrying UK military equipment were attacked and some sunk with loss of life - Atlantic Conveyor and British Wye. Fair targets in my opinion. I cannot see how the Belgrano would have been transporting Agentine casualties, as the land phase of the campagn had not started until 21 May and the Belgrano was sunk three weeks earlier. In any event the Argentines had air superiority until June so they could have simply flown any casualties home. I've never heard of the Belgrano flying a red cross either and I suspect this is an urban myth. ------------------------------ Richard VENARI LAVARE LUDERE RIDERE OCCEST VIVERE | |||
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Moderator |
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Exocet incidents yet, IIRC there was at least one if not more RN ships that got hit by them, then the Exocets failed to explode, then the engines of the missiles caught fire and the ship burned and sank anyway? Anyone remember the fine details? for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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One of Us |
Hi Mark, I remember this and is was reflected on the TV show I mentioned. We had only 9 Exocets IIRC. Thanks Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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