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| one of us |
To jest neoceniteln� humoristick� dle jeden občan of člen určit� Čech Republika. B�t �ťasten tvůj duch tam....jako takov� ono is! HAHAHARDEHARDEHARHARHAR!! SAY IT IN AMERICAN OR ENGLISH EVEN.... let us all in. ***************************** sorry I do have a question... "It needed its very own blank fire buffer spring in order to fire blanks reliably." Why would you fire blanks? Wouldn't it just be wear on your rifle. I was 300yd. target boy other day. At that particular range the rounds hit a sand bank behind the trench your in. You can really see them hit! The differance between the various cal. is amaising. You can see how you may survive a .223 at that range. But one of the bigger rounds, OUCH!!! [ 06-07-2003, 03:41: Message edited by: The Specialist ] | |||
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| <Ben H> |
Hey 120mm, do you ever get over to the "Palace" to eat, etc? I've been in-country about a week and a half. Ben H | ||
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No, I'm up at Balad Air Base. Way out in the boonies, if you will. I hear they have hot chow at "the Palace". My MRE heater works fine, though, and when I broke out my squad stove, some remf MSG looked at it and said, "what's that?" God, this is Cavalry hell. Living with the Corps rear. I either wanna go kill something, or home, don't matter which, but this is a fate worse than death. | |||
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Hey Jiri, try this one: Start with highly motivated/trained soldiers who can think for themselves. Give them an M16 or M4, which they don't leave overnight in the mud. Put them up against poorly trained, led, inflexible soldiers who are equipped with pure crap, except for their personal weapons. Stir well, kill in waves, and enjoy... | |||
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one of us |
OK, GUESS I'LL ADD MY 2 CENTS HERE (MAINLY BECAUSE SOMETHING OBVIOUS TO ME HASN'T BEEN MENTIONED). I WAS STARTING COLLEGE BACK IN THE EARLY 60'S, BUT WAS EXEMPT FROM GOING INTO THE SERVICE (LUCKY ME, AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED). AT THE TIME, SHOOTING, MARKSMANSHIP, AND RELOADING HAD BEEN MY HOBBY FOR OVER 5 YEARS. IF I HAD GONE IN, I MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE BEEN A SNIPER (KNEW BALLISTICS BACKWARDS AND...). IF BACK THEN I HAD BEEN ISSUED THE M-16, I WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY KNOWN TWO THINGS: 1 - 22 CALIBER CARTRIDGES ARE VARMINT CARTRIDGES - SUITABLE FOR TARGETS OF 40 LBS MAX WEIGHT; NOT DESIGNED FOR HUMAN SIZE TARGETS AND 2 - AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE A CHARGING HANDLE ON THE BOLT FOR INITIAL CHARGING AND CLEARING OF THE ACTION. I'VE JUST READ THROUGH BOTH THREADS HERE ON THE M-16 AND AM SURPRISED NO ONE MENTIONED #2. THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY DEMANDED THE .223 CARTRIDGE, WHEN MANY OTHERS WERE AVAILABLE (.222 MAGNUM, 22/250, .244 REM, .257 ROBERTS FOR EXAMPLES) WOULD HAVE MADE ME WONDER TOO. I SAY, IF THE THE M-16 AT LEAST HAD A F--ING BOLT CHARGING HANDLE (LIKE RUGER'S MINI-14 HAS, AHEM) FROM THE GIT-GO (STRANGE ALL THE MILITARY DEVELOPMENT PERSONNEL AND "EXPERTS" DIDN'T KNOW WHAT A 17 YR. OLD H.S. GRAD DID ABOUT WEAPONS DESIGN!) AND WAS CHAMBERED IN A SHORTENED .308 (OR 7MM) ROUND, WE'D ALL BE SINGING A DIFFERENT TUNE. MANY OTHER OF THE WORLD'S BEST BATTLE RIFLES HAVE SUCH. HOW ABOUT A STAINLESS MINI-14 WITH HEAVY BARREL, HI-TECH POLYMER STOCK, AND SCOPE RAIL MOUNT? I'M SURE SUPERIOR WEAPONS COULD BE DESIGNED AND ISSUED - JUST SEEMS BEAURACRACIES SCREW THE PROCESS UP. | |||
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quote:Where is that rule written down? | |||
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I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A RULE - IT'S JUST MOST ALL AUTOLOADERS GOING BACK DECADES HAVE HAD CHARGING HANDLES. LOOK AT ANY .22 RIMFIRE SEMI-AUTOS - THEY HAVE 'EM. IF IT'S IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO INCLUDE THEM ON A WEAPON FOR SHOOTING SQUIRRELS, CROWS, AND OTHER SMALL GAME, IT'S OBVIOUS THAT IT'S IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO BE INCLUDED ON A WEAPON YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON! OH, ALSO NOTICE THAT INHERENT WITH ANY SEMI-AUTO PISTOL DESIGN IS THE ABILITY TO MANUALLY CYCLE THE ACTION TO CLEAR JAMS. AND THE PREFERRED ASSAULT SHOTGUN DESIGN IS A MANUALLY OPERABLE PUMP ACTION; NOT AN AUTOLOADER. YOU WANT A GUN YOU CAN'T MANUALLY CYCLE? [ 06-08-2003, 21:20: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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An M16 DOES have a charging handle!!! [ 06-08-2003, 21:27: Message edited by: LZ ] | |||
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Here is a link to an exploded view of an AR-15/M-16. You can see where the charging handle is located on the picture. Strangely enough, they call it a "charging handle". The charging handle has been a part of the M-16 since it's inception. http://www.bushmaster.com/documents/disassembly_view_bushmaster_xm15.asp | |||
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| one of us |
And here is a link to a close up view of the charging handle. http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/8448517.asp You can order one, if you like, and examine it in the comfort of your home. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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YES, I KNOW - IT'S ONLY A CHARGING HANDLE. NOW IF YOU COULD CYCLE THE BOLT WITH IT TOO WHEN YOU HAVE A JAM.... EXCUSE MY CHOICE OF TERMS - I'M REFERRING TO AN ATTACHED SIDE APPENDAGE TO THE BOLT ITSELF WHICH ALLOWS MANUAL CYCLING OF THE BOLT AT ANY TIME AS WELL AS INITIAL CHARGING. IT HAS VARIOUS NAMES - COCKING HANDLE, BOLT HANDLE, CHARGING HANDLE, BUT AGAIN HAS ALWAYS BEEN PRETTY STANDARD ON AUTOLOADING WEAPONS... UNTIL THE M-16! [ 06-08-2003, 22:36: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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AND ONE OTHER THING. QUIT SHOUTING! Okay, now I feel better. One thing about the military. All the guys who've not been, for whatever reason, actually IN the military tell me what they "probably" would have been. Good for you. In reality, the Army would've ignored your wishes, and made you a cook or a generator mechanic. Nice try, though. | |||
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I gotta question. I just picked up an M4 and simulated a stovepipe. Guess what? The freaking charging handle still could pull the bolt to the rear! Yes, Virginia, you are wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! The charging handle cycles the bolt to the rear, regardless of whether it's chambering a round, extracting a round or clearing a jam. One of the main problems with the M16 is the plethora of ignorant SOBs out there who talk smack about it, but haven't ever picked one up and played with it. | |||
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I'M NOT SHOUTING. THIS IS SHOUTING!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHA. ACTUALLY AS I POSTED ELSEWHERE, I'M JUST ONE OF THESE LAZY, TWO FINGER TYPERS WHO DON'T WANT TO BOTHER WITH THE SHIFT KEY. Yeah, guess i better change huh? sowwy... ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:i spose. i jus know when aye testid, i scord sew hi, thay sed theyd make me a occifer! gess i assoming i wood hav a choys of whut 2 dew? an i hed alreddy shot meeny sub moa groops by thin. shhhh, quiet enuff fer ya? | |||
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quote:Tell that to all the dead boys found with cleaning rods stuck down their m-16's barrels? And as I recall, when i shot a Colt AR-15 years ago: after I chambered the first round with the CHARGING handle, pulling it back again did absolutely NOTHING to the bolt. I confess, most of my gun time has been with bolt guns. Go ahead, enlighten me. [ 06-08-2003, 23:09: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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Okay, seems an obvious question to me... What does the charging handle have to do with defective cases and case separation? Of course, an expert like you, who from the comfort of your couch or wherever, should be able to explain that to me. Otherwise, anytime you'd like to explain how things "really are/were" in the military, or teach me a lesson on marksmanship or military weaponry, feel free. I haven't figured it out in the last 20 years, I could really use the help. Charging handle...Hmmmph! PS-Heavy sarcasm intended. | |||
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Me too. [ 06-09-2003, 21:46: Message edited by: 120mm ] | |||
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Ya know, I only come to these forums to DISCUSS things not to ARGUE. Arguing is for immature, ungentlemanly, hotheads. FYI, I WAS exempt due to health problems. Only reason, I said that was fine with me is that I had the intelligence then (and still do) to see that that war was a BS, no win, useless effort and that the military does not exactly have the best interest of enlisted men in mind at any time. Guess I also would have not had the opportunity to put my skills to use anyway according to you. You have a nice day even though you're trying hard to ___ mine up. I'd appreciate removal of the previous post or at least clean it up a bit. I'm not here to make enemies. If I'm incorrect in my understanding of the M-16 and its many mods, you can educate me w/o trying to rip me a new.... I'm not trying to rip you one am I? [ 06-09-2003, 18:06: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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"...with cleaning rods stuck down their M-16's barrels" I'm constantly amazed by the limited ability that so many people have, when it comes to reading comprehenson. EVERYONE here knows that the original version of the M-16, that was produced back in the 1960's, had problems. I, and others, have posted to that fact in the past. The original XM16E1 had problems because of it's non-chrome lined chamber and barrel, and also the fact the "wrong" powder was loaded in the original 5.56 rounds. When these issues were combined with an environment like that of Vietnam, the results were disastrous! The wet conditions, and excess fouling (caused by the wrong powder) caused the cases to become stuck in the chamber. That is why there were problems with the charging handle. The case heads would separate, and thus our guys would have to resort to using cleaning rods...if they had them. Originally, our troops were not issued cleaning kits of any kind for the M-16 (which, of course, was another problem). IMHO, it was borderline criminal to issue that version of the M-16 to our troops under those conditions. Can you imagine sending ANY battle rifle to a Vietnam-like environment without a chrome lined barrel??? NO ONE RESENTS FAULTY EQUIPMENT BEING ISSUED TO OUR TROOPS MORE THAN THOSE OF US WHO HAVE SERVED!!!!!!! BUT.....the original post was not about that 35+ year old rifle!!!! It was about the problems the troops had with the CURRENT ISSUE M16 varients. As I have posted in the past, the problems with the original XM16E1 have been corrected. The charging handle works as advertised , even if it looks and functions a little differently from what you typically find on most auto/semi-auto rifles. Yes, you can cycle the action manually! The current issue M16A2/M16A4 and M4/M4A1 rifles work fine, if you just clean them once in a while. And of course that is important with any rifle, especially in a harsh sandy environment like Iraq. But don't take my work for it. Read the after action report put out by the Marines. They had nothing but praise for the M-16 in Iraq. On a side note... I'd like to say thanks to 120 and all of the other members of our Armed Forces who are currently serving our country. My hat's off to you! [ 06-09-2003, 04:33: Message edited by: LZ ] | |||
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Gentlemen, has anyone seen a new piece of equipment introduced that didn't have "teething problems"? Like any complex system, the M16 was no exception. The M14 was evolutionary, shared some M1 parts, was under development for years, and still wasn't in general use until 1957. The M16 was revolutionary, not wanted by the Army, welcomed by the Air Force, baptised in the jungle, and finally, accepted by all. The way I see it, we're getting better. packrat | |||
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As I originally said, it was my 2 cents worth... guess that is/was all it is/was worth! I'll hesitate posting from now on. Better to keep my mouth shut, etc. 120mm - my apologies for getting you so worked up. [ 06-09-2003, 18:13: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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You're the second guy I've flamed in two days. Not the way I usually am, my only (albeit weak) excuse, is that I'm a touch tense. What have I got to complain about? I'm in a war zone and I have access to the internet. Hmmmm? | |||
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LZ's right we are not talking about the old 16's they were and are a piece of shit, they did jam and caused problems but were fixed, In Iraq it seems to work fine because its used with in the right ranges, its great for under a 100 meters, but talk to the troops over in Afgan and they will tell you they need a round with more reach, the Air Force shoved it down our throats but the Marines and Army grunts are the ones who used it and got the improvements it needed, and even with all that the Army is looking at stop gap measures again, thinking about a 6mm or6.5 round based on that platform. | |||
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quote:I might take that deal with ONE condition. You stand at 600 yards first and give me ONE shot with my M1A. Then it's your turn... ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Different tools for different jobs... Cheers, XWind | |||
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I think ol' sonofagun just was a little confused about the 'unique' way the AR/M16 works. Easy to understand as you really can't 'push the bolt' with the charging handle. You can 'pull the bolt carrier' but not push, you can let go of the charging handle and the bolt assembly will close (or try) under spring tension. Hence the need for the 'forward assist'. So I see how someone could misunderstand how this action works. I guess it does work as their are a lot of our best counting on these things but as you can tell from all these posts few people are on the fence about this rifle system. Most love 'em or hate 'em or maybe just tolerate them. I originally threw this post up to let folks know about a TV show on the history channel! I've been out of town for a few days and when I got back yesterday I see the two AR/M16 threads still alive and kicking. People are really opinionated about this topic and I think a lot of folks are either learning, teaching, or getting things off their chest,, all good stuff. I wanted to ask a 'dumb' question'. When I first shot an AR-15, some 30 years ago, I was shown how the rifle operated by a friend of mine that had recently gotten back from V'nam. Has anyone ever seen a failure on this rifle system that either, due to an unlatched or broken latch on the charging handle, and a high friction in the handle slot )or something that didn't allow the slot to just let the carrier slide, caused the charging handle to 'hang up' on the bolt carrier and fly back (where your nose goes) causing an unpleasant situation? Everytime I stick my face that close to the handle that pulls the bolt carrier I think I'm on borrowed time and sooner or later I'm going to get a facefull of charging handle. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Has never happened (yet?) and I've never seen it or heard of it happening but looking at how that bolt carrier recoils within a slot on the charging handle has always made me think it could. You folks have a great weekend. I'm leaving town again on Sunday but hope to have access to the net soon so I can keep up with all the great reading here. Cheers, XWind [ 06-13-2003, 18:12: Message edited by: XWind ] | |||
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I can never remember that happening. Let me play with one and I'll get back to you on that. | |||
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As far as I can see, after messing with one, The M16 will not fire, unless the charging handle is locked in place. Even if the lock is completely omitted from the charging handle, and it somehow bound up with the bolt carrier group, your nose would stop the charging handle from doing any serious damage. It might sting a little, but I don't see it do any serious damage to you or your face. I have to tell you, this has been a very interesting thread. It has made me examine my thoughts and feelings about the rifle, itself. If I had to carry any rifle in combat, I'd choose and M4 with the current laser sights and night vision goggles. Ergonomically, it's next to perfect, it has little felt recoil, and fits in well with the US Army's current warfighting doctrine. In effect, it is like the Roman Scutum, or short sword. The Romans beat a lot of enemies who were armed with much "better" weapons in various technical ways, but their warfighting system kicked nearly all comers butts, provided the Generals did their job. | |||
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one of us |
As a 27� year user of the XM16, M16A1 and M16A2 I see nothing wrong with the system. Keep it clean, think about the weapon when you move (you do know that you are a weapon platform don't you?), i.e. keep it as clean as possible, and you'll have no problems. Are you worried about dirt jamming the weapon? That happened, in combat, with both the M1903 and M1 Garand. Worried about not having a clean weapon that will function due to the direct gas system? Clean it. Worried that the charging handle won't cycle the bolt carrier group back AND forth? The action spring and forward assist are adequate for all but filthy weapons. Want a weapon you never have to clean? Cold Steel sells spears. | |||
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120MM, thanks for checking that scenario out (thanks for actually understanding what I did a pretty poor job of explaining.) As much as I like the M14 I really, after a lot of thinking about it, tend to agree with you. The M4 can really be tricked out and as you say it's MUCH easier to tote around and they do feel pretty darn good in your hands. Cheek weld on that tubular M4 may be the least ergonomic aspects of the feel to me. I'm sure you get used to it though and the trade off for that stock is probably well worth it. I actually bought an AR-15 carbine (short barrel, collapsible stock etc). I payed big bucks for it from an FFL 'delegate'. It was a guy working at a gun shop under the owner's license I believe. It was sold to me as a pre-ban and was in pre-ban form with 3 or 4 of those 'evil' pre-ban features. I had to get the s/n manually checked by the manufacturer and guess what...yup POST ban. That fact drastically changed the value of the rifle (priced pre-ban stuff lately?). Back then, 4 or 5 years ago this carbine was almost double in price, pre vs post. Luckily? I printed out the letter from the manufacturer and went steaming into the shop with the rifle, the letter and my hand out. The guy instantly knew (should've seen his jaw drop) he was screwed and had compromised the owner's FFL. Money came flying at me from behind the counter and the rifle deal was 'un-done'. I really liked that little rifle. It was a blast to shoot, but it was illegal and when I got the report back I learned a big lesson...Have the S/N searched FIRST, then hand over the money. I trusted the guy when I was in the store which was my big mistake. 120MM, it sounds like you're not where you want to be and that really does stink. I hope you can tough out your time and get back over here. I think about you guys (and gals) and thank God for ya. As far as the sand in the gun scenario that even I have to admit I sometimes put to much focus on regarding the M16 action, sand and dirt in guns is nothing new and yes even the great M1 had problems in Africa, South Pacific, Korea etc. Timing is everything in life and the timing of the initial release of the original AR is undoubtedly what started this rifle system on it's way with such bad reviews. Times have changed and as I mentioned I really hope they get all of our folks back home safe where they belong. Cheers, XWind | |||
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The cool thing about the M4/laser/night vision combo, is that you don't need to make a good cheek weld. It allows you to fight, "head-up", using the laser to paint the enemy. Your acquisition speed and accuracy can be phenomenal at night ranges. Of course, the laser used is not visible without the night vision device The M4 has a nice plastic swell on both sides of the recoil assy., which allows both left and right handed shooters to get that good cheek weld for more traditionally aimed fire. Fighting American infantry armed in such a manner is a fast dance with only one ending. | |||
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quote:Better yet, we both begin standing. Upon a signal both shooters assume whatever position they wish and commence firing. First on target wins. Let me know how that 75 grain pill feels going in, will you? [ 06-13-2003, 23:42: Message edited by: Orion 1 ] | |||
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quote: What, now no confidence in the mil pill? I tell you what. Next time you're in the North Georgia area you're invited to my local range and we'll have some fun punching some long range paper or silhouettes, you're welcome to shoot my M1A if you'd like and maybe you'll let me squeeze off a few from your AR. It's a great range, River Bend Gun Club. Heck bring your pistol and we'll run both the action rifle and action pistol courses. Throw your dies in and we'll take the chrono and do some load work. You'll like the challenge of our 600 yard range. I've shot there several times when the wind flags on each side were blowing in opposite directions. Here's the club's URL. They're trying to find a new IT guy because as great as this range is the web site doesn't do it justice. River Bend Just drop me a note and we'll make a day of it, shootin' and swappin' stories. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} The proposed 'duel' would be ok but I'm almost sure they'd make me clean up the mess... ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} (couldn't resist ;-) Peace, XWind | |||
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| <Eric> |
"Not trying to start a war here, but has anybody here done an endurance test with an M16 (any model), firing as many rounds as possible until it jams, without cleaning it?" VKTM39, In reply to your question, several years back (actually last year)during yearly weapons qualification, several other another fella's (read five soldiers)and I had to burn up a bunch of ammo. It was about twenty magazines each as I recall. We shot them up on three round burst ( blinking M-16A2's!) as fast as we could manipulate the trigger. Those weapons were hot! No stoppages, no malfunctions, no errors on five weapons that had each shot 49 rounds previously for qualification. No cleaning, no nothing. It works if you do your job. Regards, Eric | ||
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Shooting Times did this a few years ago with one AR-15. They fired thousands of rounds through it and never used the forward assist. Not one failure. If anybody is really interested I will try to find the issue. The author and some local police officers loaded all the magazines and fired all the rounds. I don't know how fast they shot them, but I think the article says the barrel got hot and stayed hot. They cut two logs in half. | |||
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quote:Deal. Looks like a sweet club...... My wife has a HS friend near Atlanta. Next time I'm around I'll be packing some heat. Will probably have to stay at a motel because both she and her husband are college professor types and I know they ain't shooters. I find it hard to imagine a shooting range where all the yard lines (to 600) are perpendicular to the prevailing winds, like my home club (Central KS Gun Club) is. And in Kansas the prevailing winds are usually 20 gusting to 30 in the summer. [ 06-14-2003, 07:13: Message edited by: Orion 1 ] | |||
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Come on Orion i grew up in Hutch and Plevna and spent time at the unlces place out side of Dodge. THE WIND ALSWAYS BLOWS IN KANSAS!! | |||
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quote:How much desert sand and dust was being blown around at the time? And how extreme was the temperature? The reliability test of a military rifle is how well it performs in adverse conditions, not how well it performs when used in range tests in favourable conditions. Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum | |||
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quote:Yes it does. Builds character at 600 yards. | |||
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