With all the complaints about the crappy Beretta jamming in the 'Stan and in Iraq due to sand, and complaints about the 9mm round not stopping bad guys, what should the US military switch to?

Some choices:

1911 .45
Sig 220 .45
HK USP .45

Sig .40
Steyr .40
HK .40

Other?

Kimber or Para ordenance P-10-12-14 they both are double stack .45 with 10, 12, or 14 rd mags

I think 45 ACP ball still makes a good military round. It might not penetrate body armor, but I expect 230 grains of jacketed lead impacting a vest at 800 feet per second would hurt a bit.

YEAH! 1911, para or kimber.

The 45 acp has outclassed the 9mm from 1911, as far stopping power goes. I believe that in real world accounts the 9mm is little better then the 38 S&W special with 158 gr lead round nose.
What's wrong with the 1911a1 in one or the other of it's updated configurations, not a damn thing.
If the little people of both both sexes can't handle the 1911, they can't handle the Beretta, which bigger overall
Jim

500grains,

My vote is for the Para P-14 in the .45 ACP. It'll do to ride the river with.

The HK and Sig are the only guns I've ever picked up and shot, without practice, hitting successfully, everything I pointed it at.

packrat

S&W 99 or Glock 21, in 45 ACP.

Tough choices here...
I own 5 different 1911's and a Sig P-220. When I got an uninvited dipstick at my door last december @ midnight the Sig was in my hand first.
I have never had a jam,misfeed or stovepipe with the Sig like one of my 1911's. Now Nothing agaist the 1911's mind you,but the Colts need a bit more help before they would be 100%.
If there is ever a second time for a minight dipstick my 870 will be my pick though...sometimes even a .45 isn't enough to persuade a jackass he isn't welcome. 45nut

HK 23 Socom or USP tactical. It could fire +P ammunition with no problem, life 30 000 rounds+, and not as heavy as P14-45 . . .

I am a Sig fan myself.

Anyone got an idea about how many times the 9mm has not had the desired effect in Iraq? I cannot think that sidearms get much serious use in that type of warfare or the peacemaking role that has followed.

We should never have changed to that Italian pistol to begin with!! So a lot of 1911's are worn out! Just buy new ones!!

jiri you forgot to mention that while not as heavy as the P-14 or kimber composite, the MK23 is longer and imho harder to service in the field.

Just my opinion from reading and observation the Swiss and the Germans tend to over engineer most everything they come in to contact with.
A nice old rattlely 1911 with seven shots, two weeks worth of mud, grit and vegetation rinsed off in the local creek, pond, gets my vote. Hell, even if I'm out of ammo that damned old gun can still beat the bejabbers out of some deserving soul.
For military side arm a six inch group at 50 yards is good enough. Hit him once, to slow him down, then hit him the second time, or more, until he stops moving.
Jim

For a military sidearm that is going to be shot a lot, I would think a steel or stainless steel or even polymer framed pistol would outlast an aluminum framed pistol. Some 1911's in military service saw 100,000 rounds, think an aluminum frame is going to last this long? Not likely.

I thought the Beretta was a piece of crap from day one. They never should have replaced the 1911 and it's the only sidearm that the U.S. Military should use.

Oops! I forgot to add that, the Army is tentatively looking at getting rid of the Beretta, and replacing it with a (possibly) .45 acp pistol. The reasons presented for this are: The 9mm round was adopted in order to have commonality of ammo with our allies. What allies? According to the last war, we have no allies outside of Britain in Western Europe. Thus, our need for ammo compatibility doesn't exist. Second, night vision devices work better with pistols. And if you go into a gunfight with a pistol as a primary weapon, bigger is better.

So far, I'd say the H&K derivatives are far and away the favored horses in this race, since the government has been doing business with them through the special ops community up until this time.

I've had a fair amount of experience with pistols over the years. Shot IPSC open and limited with 1911 derivatives. Own a couple of SIGs in 9mm and 40. Own a couple of CZs in 9 and 40,

One day we got a crowd together at the house and shot every kind of 9mm/40/45 we could lay our hands on. The Beretta came in last for handling and recoil management ... damn thing flips more than a 45 ACP 1911. Several of the fellas really liked the shootability of the CZ guns.

In terms of lasting ... I had a 1911 based Super crack a slide (cheap Springfield 9mm slide) at over 40,000 logged rounds of major Super ammo. That's an absolute world of ABUSE ... 125 grain slugs at 1440 fps. Equivalent to a .357 Mag in a 4" revolver. No Beretta will every survive THAT.

Of the 1911 derivates the steel frame poly grip double column guns arising from the McCormic frame (SVI, etc) last the best and are much less costly to build than a Para. Fitted with a high quality slide like a Baer they'll last for damn near ever.

I've never liked the Glock and the new HK was a real disapointment after the P7 M8 and M13.

How does an HK stack up against a M1911 when both are soaked into thick, goopy mud prior to firing?

(As to the origin of this test, I read about some guys in Vietnam finding an AK that had been submerged in a marsh for about a year. They took it out, pulled the trigger, and emptied a 30 rd mag without a jam.)

Theres a new sports center in Missoula. I went there and managed to hold a USP Tactical, which has long been my dream pistol. For a breif while, I was considering getting something cheaper as a first handgun, but upon holding that, I realized I must have one. Anyways, I talked to the guy behind the counter. He has a USP 45 with over 50,000 rounds through it and not a single jam. Cold, hot, dry, wet, dirty--don't matter with an HK. He dropped his in the mud, took it apart, rubbed some snow on it to clean it, put it back together again, and it functioned flawlessly. Considering the tests the Mk23 SOCOM had to go through, I'd say the H&K design is at least as good at handling dirty conditions as the 1911. After all, the HK's competition was a design by Colt.
I work Trails in the summer and wash dishes during the school year. I don't have alot of money. So I do research before I spend the money I have. And the bottom line is that I personally don't have $1000+ for a handgun, unless it is an H&K.

http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html

[ 06-20-2003, 02:24: Message edited by: FarRight ]

I have heard that SF, Recon, SEALS, etc. are
permitted to use the weapons they want and
several still use 1911s in .45 caliber.

You would think that after nearly a century it would be possible to design and make a better auto than the 1911. This whole thread demonstrates that maybe, barely maybe, after all those decades, an H&K might be a VERY slight improvement. Sure is a compliment to JM Browning that it has taken so long - and that so many shooters still will vote for the old antique cannon.

Count me in for the HK. I was able to shoot several different guns in .40S&W before making up my mind, and have nothing bad to say about it. I bought a USP compact DASA with decocking for a carry gun. I also got the ambidextrous safety being a left handed shooter. The only time it didn't cycle was when a friend shot it, and it failed twice in the same clip! He was holding it way too limp wristed.

I'd also like to bash the Beretta 92/M-9. I shoot a lot of military combat matches and HATE shooting that POS. The Air Force has minimum scores for a cut off to earn points towards your distinguished pistol badge and with the M-9, you could win the match without making the cut off!

Give me a tried and true 1911 any day
but my heart belongs to the guns of HK

Bill

1911. Reliable. Simple. Medium recoil. Fits smaller hands better, OK for large hands. While some modern pistols are slightly easier to field-strip and clean, probably NONE are easier to detail-disassemble. Without tools.

The pistol needs a few small changes. Trigger guard should probably be undercut to reduce effect of recoil (by allowing higher grip). Grip safety should probably be Ed Brown's, same reason. Sights should be same as latest commercial Colts. There are pro's & con's to the new Series 80 safety system; possibly that or one of the other latest improvements might be considered and mud-tested. Some would say they are unnecessary.

Nothing succeeds like success.

I don't think military 1911's would need the Series 80 safety system, it is one more thing to break. All they need is a heavy duty firing pin spring.

I don't like the Kimber system because a tool is needed for disassembly.

MAYBE IT'S LIKE IT IS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE:

THINGS DESIGNED BY INDIVIDUALS (LIKE BROWNING) ARE GREAT DESIGNS.

THOSE DESIGNED BY "DESIGN STAFFS" (AND SUBSEQUENTLY MODIFIED AND "IMPROVED" BY OTHERS) AND THEN TESTED AND "APPROVED" BY "PROCUREMENT" COMMITTEES ARE SOMETHING ELSE.

SOG - THE "LAZY TYPER".

ALSO, DIDN'T THE MILITARY TRY TO SOLVE THE HANDGUN PROBLEM ONCE BEFORE...

AND IT WAS CALLED THE M-1 CARBINE!

[ 06-27-2003, 06:48: Message edited by: sonofagun ]

Yes they should swich back to a .45 maybe even a Hi-cap., The .45 might not be able to penetrate body armor, but, if the bad guy is close enough with armor, and he takes a shot or two to the chest it might collapse the sternum, therefore the lungs will collapse due to the trauma of impact from the 230 gr. hardball, most enemy still have steel pots on there heads as well which the .45 will penetrate, even a hip shot will ruin his day, as well as a shoulder shot, but if the bad guy has no armor, the .45 double tap will knock him on his keester in a big way!

How about the 1907 Pistol Parabellum in .45 ACP?

I know its not a viable solution, but the idea makes me "giddy"!



[ 07-20-2003, 14:26: Message edited by: DMCI* ]

Well

My suggestion is 1911 blued steel, singel stack. ammo is hard boiled 230 grainers

I hate double stacks for several reasons, and are a bit allergic to plastic too

/ JOHAN

I still prefer the 220 sig 45. to the 1911. I like the DA/SA over cocked and locked, they are very accurate right out of the box and also easily field stripped without tools. While I agree the 9mm hasn't earned a great reputation as a manstopper I believe it would be much more effective with +P rounds of any other variety than military hardball. There are many types of 9mm ammo available to the civilian shooter, most of which, soldiers would certainly appreciate in a firefight, rather than what is issued to them!

The last report of actual shootings compiled by Evan Marshall shows 9mm fmj's superior to .45 fmj. The 1911 is the best designed handgun in the World.

I'm actually Jays son so I might not be correct.I think the SW-99 in .45 acp would be the best.I don't know how it handles in dust and crap like that but test on accuract say it gooooooood.
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

Give yourself a treat, find a HK Tactical 45 and go have alot of fun for several days. Always remember that good ammunition is important for any firearm and practice good gun safety. My opinion and my opinion only, I would be suspect that one would be peddling something else if you too were not impressed. I know the ones I purchased have funtioned just as they should.