I'm back with the range report guys. The kid was thrilled with his new rifle. Best Christmas ever Dad, I think was the quote. The Romanian stuff shoots OK but it's about a foot high and the sights are down as far as they'll go. I'm guessing this has to do with the lighter bullet in the Romanian stuff? Any feedback in this dept? It will hit a 10" gong target consistently at 100 yards and 150 yards with a little "Kentucky windage" or in this case "Washington elevation".

On another note, I cleaned with hot soapy water and shooters choice. When I checked the bore, it was pitted. Not horribly but definitely pitted. Has anyone else seen one of the Mausers from Mitchell's in this condition or should I pitch a bitch with them? Every one of the bargain basement mausers I've seen was afflicted with this but this rifle is in pristine condition in every other respect. At first I thought it was just crud but I cleaned it with everything I had and while crud can be remove through cleaning, pits can't.

Migra

That it shoots high is quite normal in many such mil-surps. 100 years ago (when that rifle was designed) it was common to have the sights set to shoot POA at around 400 yards/meters. On most of mine I've got an extra tall front sight from Brownells and filed them down until I got them in the black at 100 yards.

Too bad the barrel has some pits but if it shoots good then don't worry about it too much. Just make sure you flush the barrel out good with a diluted ammonia solution, (windex w/ammonia works well too), then clean as you would normally.

IF Mitchell's described the condition of the rifle/carbine you bought as better than what they delivered, I would complain.

As I recall, you have an M-48 Yugo. So your Romanian (154gr.) light ball ammo shooting that high is what I would expect. Remember the lowest sight setting is 200m(219yds). The heavy Yugo (198gr.) will shoot a bit lower at that range ..... but you still won't have a 100yd. zero.

If you go with the Brownell extra high front site, be prepared to do some filing!

PS - migra, here's my ID

Horale! Dats a good looking peecture mang! Or should I say Da Mang?

MY bad! Upon further inspection, the barrel isn't pitted. It appears that the cutter was dull and dragged a bit leaving a way less than perfect surface finish. Lapping may clean some of it up but it looks like I just got a barrel that was made on the wrong day.

Migra

I shoot corrosive thru several dozen military bolt actions been doing it for years never had a spot of rust.
I clean at the range by pouring about a cup of water down the barrel and give the bore and bolt a quick spritz of WD-40, I then clean as normal when I get Home using CLP usually, Hoppes ocasionally and when needed copper remover or JB Bore paste and Kroll. I do NOT over clean was that will wear a bore out faster than shooting the rifle.
As to primers , the ones to avoid are the mercuric type , long gone now as the mercury made the brass cases brittle. Corrosive primers are still made and still used by many countries since they are more stable and more reliable and store better and are less sensitive to storage conditionsthan Boxer Primers( thats WHY you can still shoot ammo from the 1930's), but they do contain compounds that are Hydroscopic, that is to say salts that attract and absorb moisture from the air and then can cause rust, thats what can damage the bore and bolt face, there is nothing in a corrosive primer that by itself can harm a bore, just the fact that they absorb and attract mositure from the air. Any flushing of those salts with any water based liquid will do the trick. Using ammonia does not do the job better, and can have problems of it's own , ammonia can harm or remove bluing if left on the bluing to long and if it gets on anything brass it can damage the brass and make it brittle.
Many totally acceptable ways to clean a rifle after corrosive ammo , but plain old water followed by regular cleaning and oiling is totally sufficent.

Migra, I know you just bought a bunch of the Romanian 8mm. But, Cheaper Than Dirt has got the heavy Yugo ball back in stock! Good stuff on good strippers!

Corrosive! But good stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by migra:
MY bad! Upon further inspection, the barrel isn't pitted. It appears that the cutter was dull and dragged a bit leaving a way less than perfect surface finish. Lapping may clean some of it up but it looks like I just got a barrel that was made on the wrong day.

Migra

Try some Tubb Final Finish. That stuff works wonders.

[QUOTE] Corrosive primers are still made and still used by many countries since they are more stable and more reliable and store better and are less sensitive to storage conditions than Boxer Primers[Quote



Sarge - I know it was just a typing slip and that you know better, but for those who don't, whether a primer is Berdan or Boxer has nothing to do with whether it is corrosive or non-corrosive.

There are both corrosive and non-corrosive primers all over the place that are all Berdan-style. Norma for instance makes a very good non-corrosive Berdan primer, which I use for handloading. And the old FA 70 primer (US military standard for 40+ years) was a Boxer primer, but quite corrosive.

The difference between Boxer and Berdan primers is the presence or absence of an anvil in the primer cup along with the priming mixture. Boxer primers have one, Berdan primers don't (the Berdan anvil is built into the case head instead). The difference between Corrosive and Non-Corrosive is usually the presence or absence of potassium chlorate as part of the priming mixture, with most Corrosive primers containing that chemical, while most non-corrosive primers do not.

Since about the mid-late 1950's, non-corrosive primers have been accepted by U.S. military, testing out as equivalent to corrosive primers in storage, shelf-life, general reliability, etc.

Again, I know you knew all that, am just putting it on here for the less experienced shooters who do not know it.

Best wishes,

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Migra, I know you just bought a bunch of the Romanian 8mm. But, Cheaper Than Dirt has got the heavy Yugo ball back in stock! Good stuff on good strippers!

Corrosive! But good stuff!

You are right, that is good stuff and it's on good stong stripper clips. That old Turk stuff splits necks like crazy in my M48.

Alberta Canuck good catch , you are exactly right.

OK, fter shooting this Romanian stuff twice and cleaning the rifle twice I can honstly say that this is the dirtiest ammo I have ever shot.

This rifle takes more cleanup than a muzzleloader or a black powder cartridge rifle. Hot water gets dumped down the bore via a funnel and then about twenty wet patches of shooters choice later I Kroil it.

The powder fowling is stuck in there and wont come out. A brush doesn't seem to help either. I think I'll try the hot water "pump" (cleaning rod patch, bucket of water) method next time and see if that loosens this stuff up before the brush and powder solvent. This method al;ways worked good with my muzzleloaders.

Bottom line, when this stuff is gone I'm trying something else.

Migra

Sometimes shooting this cheap ammo will get you behind the 8 ball. I like to save a buck as much as the next guy, but there comes a time when it gets to be counter productive. I hate cleaning guns, and for me it's worth it to spend a few more bucks and have it make the end task easier. I never shoot corrosive ammo because of this. The hassle and mess afterward just isn't worth it. We pump our tanks full of $3.00 a gallon gas and don't think twice, then turn around and try and save a few lousy bucks shooting cheap ammo. Not for me anyway. Bill T.

Bill T, have you ever tried corrosive ammo?

No, as I said I don't feel it's worth the hassle for the few bucks saved. If one checks on the internet, there is a lot of cheap non corrosive stuff out there. Bill T.

Cheap non corrosive stuff? I believe thats where I started this thread. Where is this magical stuff?

Migra

Check Natchez or CDNN. I've seen them advertising Olympic 8X57 non corrosive for around $6.00 for 20. Sellier & Belliot isn't a whole lot more. It's not as low as the corrosive stuff but it doesn't take 16 hours, and 400 gallons of water to clean your gun afterward either. I've always liked this crap they call "mildly corrosive". Kind of like being, "a little bit pregnant". Bill T.

quote:

Originally posted by migra:
Cheap non corrosive stuff? I believe thats where I started this thread. Where is this magical stuff?

Migra

Migra, I believe that Romanian ammo you have is supposed to be non-corrosive. At least that's what it says in the Sportman's Guide description:

Romanian 8 mm FMJ Ammo, in military sealed tins!

1970s production, with lacquered steel cases, sealed-up fresh, ONLY here!. Non-corrosive, Berdan-primed, non-reloadable. 154-grain FMJ bullet. Boxes of 20 rds., in sealed 380-rd. tin. 760 rds. in wood crate, too. Approx. Muzzle Velocity: 2,600 F.P.S. Muzzle Energy: 2,311 ft.-lbs.

billt, I felt the same way you do about corrosive ammo about four years ago. Then I tried it and found that it shot well and clean-up wasn't as difficult or time consuming as it sounds.

PS - I agree with you on the "mildly corrosive" claims. It's either corrosive..... or it's not!

Cheap NON CORROSIVE??? Here ya go, 760 rounds for $60.00

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=217693

I've known several folks who've bought ammo advertised as noncorrosive and discovered the hard way that it's not.

Actually, cleanup with corrosive ammo is easy and only takes a few minutes with a bolt gun. Ever shoot a blackpowder gun? The same cleaning procedures are more than sufficient. At the most basic level, a few wet patches followed by an oily one will do the job. I like household ammonia for the wet patches, because it removes copper and nickel jacket fouling, but it has nothing to do with removing the corrosive potassium chloride salt, plain water works as well as the water in the ammonia solution does.

Be sure to wipe down the bolt face, as a little leakage around the primers normally occurs.

Most people will do some cleaning and oiling even after shooting the rifle with noncorrosive ammo. It takes about as long if you do.

I assume ALL surplus ammo, especially old commie ammo, is corrosive. Period.

ZM

OK, The stuff in the Sportsmans guide is the exact same stuff I got from AIM surplus on reccomendation of another poster. I really don't reccomend this stuff it's the dirtiest stuff I've ever seen. Even if it is non-corrosive or "mildly corrosive" I'm with Billt on that one it's like a little pregnant.

I shot it again yesterday and tried the hot water pump method and it cleaned up a lot easier this time but it was stioll a pain.

Migra

Sportsmans Guide is now selling the Yugo heavy ball ammo in smaller quantities, if anybody is interested in testing it before buying a case.

AX6M-97006 - 150 rds. 8 mm 196-gr. Ammo $14.97

Norman F Johnson posted how to test for corrosiveness in 1996:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/f34efb1ecafc8300

quote:

Clean your bore if you have fired any corrosive ammo since the
last bore cleaning.

Take a mild steel plate and scrub off any rust and dirt and then
degrease.

Pull the bullet and dump the powder from a KNOWN non-corrosive
round (commercial ammo is best here since some of the imported
stuff is corrosive no matter what the advertizer claims). Place
the empty, primed case in gun. Hold it about two inches from the
plate (safety glasses here) and fire.

Do the same with your "test" ammo. "Shoot" the plate at a spot
about four inches away from the first location. Put the plate
in your garage for 24 hours. If the test sample contained a
corrosive primer there will be a marked difference in the corro-
sion at the point of "impact". The non-corrosive primer impact
area will show virtually (depending upon your ambient relative
humidity) no corrosion.

Today's smokeless powder is not corrosive.

God Bless!

Norm

Using Norm's method, I found that some ammo sold as corrosive was actually corrosion or rust inhibiting

The outside of the cases had some corrosion, and the vendor in Shotguns news took the inductive leap.

I just bought a 760 round case from sportsmans guide.when they rang it up ,a little window popped up,declaring the ammo to be slightly corrosive after all.

quote:

Originally posted by migra:
OK now I'll ask a dumb question. To clean a barrel after using corrosive ammo does regular Hoppes work or is there some other secret. I've heard boiling water works but shit, this isn't my muzzleloader it's modern (more or less) rifle.Migra

No, regular Hoppe's DOES NOT WORK! The reason why black powder cartridge rifles did not have bore corrosion problems, despite being used with the same corrosive primers as later smokeless loads, is that BP fouling was always cleaned out of the bore using water! This washed the corrosive primer salts out of the bore at the same time it washed out BP fouling!

Treat your barrel AS IF it had been fired with BP when you clean it out after using corrosive primers! WWII-type GI Bore cleaner was formulated for use with corrosive ammo, but even that is not as good as plain water.

We (ARMY) always cleaned out our M1's by immersing them in garbage cans full of water that we heated up to boiling temperatures with immersion heaters after shooting any .30 US GI M2 ball ammo made before 1960......

quote:

Originally posted by jb:
I just bought a 760 round case from sportsmans guide.when they rang it up ,a little window popped up,declaring the ammo to be slightly corrosive after all.

"SLIGHTLY (MILDLY) CORROSIVE"!! What B.S.!

Ammunition either has corrosive primers, or it doesn't. There isn't anything between the two possiblities! Treat any suspect ammo as if it would eat out your rifling unless PROPERLY cleaned the day of firing, as if the ammo had been loaded with black powder! Because it can & will ruin a bore OVERNIGHT!

I'm going to test my Romanian "slightly corrosive".

I'm going to chrono it and test for accuracy.

It comes in a very nice wooden case and has two sealed sardine cans inside. I was reluctant to open the case..... but it's cheap and I can get more of it if I want another case.

I still think the Yugo surplus M48 ammo is the best surplus available for 8X57mm. I'm about half way through my second of three cases.

I just opened my case of Romanian 7,92LPS.

It may not be the best 8mm ammo, but it sure is packed nicely!

As long as Yugoslavia (and whatever it has morphed into now) fields MG42's and Sniper rifles in 7.92x57JS then I think our surplus ammunition supply problems are not going to be a worry.

Then again I have seen and shot Spanish 8mm and portuguese and when you think of all the war stores that are sitting in the republics of the former Soviet Union and how desperately they are looking for hard currency to support themselves in the manner they wish to become accustomed to....I think our great great grand children will still be shooting 8mm surplus from the 20 th century.

I could be wrong, but somehow I doubt it

98 percent of the 8mm I shoot is the corrosive.
Wipeout will clean the corrosive salts out just great.This is probably the easiest, then Windex with ammonia, then hot soapy water.
I am lazy so I use the Wipeout now.

If you think your corrisive ammo is starting to pit your bore, stop shooting it and pick up some new production ammo somewhere. It doesn't cost that much more and its sure as hell easier to clean up after.