I believe the weapon in question is a Model 1891 Mosin-Nagant...the only model with the octagonal front receiver ring.

The ones made by Remington and Westinghouse are supposedly some of the nicest factory rifles ever made. The reason??? As the story goes, there were approximately 1,500 Russian engineers stationed at these two plants overseeing the entire manufacture of the rifles contracted by their government...and they were VERY picky.

If the price is good I would buy it a heartbeat.

Rick

That picture posted by crazyquik is indeed a Remington-made U.S. Rifle, Cal. 30, Model of 1917, the substitute standard U.S. Army rifle of WWI. It is chambered for the .30/'06 round, and IS NOT A MOISIN-NAGANT!! It is also often referred to as the 1917 Enfield. It was one of these, NOT an '03 Springfield, (plus his M1911 .45 ACP), that the great Sergeant Alvin York used in his single-handed capture of an entire German infantry company!!



Remington was making 1914 Enfields, .303 British cal., for England when we got into WWI. Since the U.S. did not have enough 1903 Springfields, the U.S. government took over the British contracts and had Remington alter the rifle slightly and start chambering them for .30/'06 instead of .303 British. The 1917 was never made for the Russians. What Remington made for the Russians were actually Moisin-Nagants, with the single-stack magazine in front of the triggerguard and chambered for 7.62X54R.



These rifles were actually better combat weapons than the '03, because they have better sights. The rear sight is an adjustable (for elevation) peep and the front sight is protected by those big ears, whereas the '03's front sight is just hanging out in the air with no protection, and can be easily bent in combat situations. In addition, the 1917 has a 26" barrel!



1917 Enfield actions, due to their size, have been used to make many custom magnum rifles chambered for big, long cartridges! Their only drawback, according to our thinking in the U.S., is the fact that they cock on the closing stroke. However, this can be changed!

What are you yelling at Elde? Nobody is saying the rifle in the picture is a Russian, but that the one in the store (the one this thread is about) is a Remington built Octagonal receivered model 91 MN.



With no pics, its just a guess on my part so unknot your drawers and help out on the rifle in question.



Dan

I also believe the rifle in question is a Remington made 91 M-N. However, the guy said that it did not have a "drop-magazine" so that confuses me since I can find nothing about any M-N's (Remington or otherwise) without this feature.

I can't imagine someone grinding a 1917 Enfield round receiver into an octagon shape...but I guess anything is possible. I'm not sure how one could do that though, without wiping out the original markings on the receiver.

Rick

After the Bolshevik Revolution, Remington ceased shipment of the MN rifles, and most were sold to the big houses selling all kinds of stuff, like Bannerman's and Sedgely. I wonder if it is one of those, gunsmithed into a custom piece, magazine removed or shortened? It certainly sounds like a M-N 1891, and that is the best Wild Assed Guess I can come up with. I can't think of any other models that fit the description, the Rolling Blocks are out, as are the 1914-17 Enfields, and it's not an 03-A3, that's about as good a guess as I got! The knob on the rear of the bolt about seals it as an M-N, though.

You're right about the "Bannerman M 91's", some of which were rechambered without any other changes to .30/'06. These had a big gap between the chamber wall and cartridge case at the rear of the chamber, since, of course, the 7.62X54R is much bigger at the head than the '06 case. In addition, the M91 extractor does not properly engage the '06 extractor groove, since they were made for a rimmed case of much larger size. These "rechambered to .30/'06" Moisin/Nagant rifles should never be fired.

Yeah, that's definitely a Mosin-Nagant M91 made by Remington. The store owner may have meant the magazine didn't "drop out" like a removable box magazine.

They're not very valuable, but I'd like to have one. (I've got a WWII M91/30.) I love those long old rifles!

Of all the Nagants, one made in USA would be my first choice, if available!

I'd love to have one myself!

The story goes that the Remington and New England Westinghouse factories making them during WWI were overrun with Russian inspectors (who drove the Americans crazy) and were finished to extremely close tolerances. Most of 'em didn't get shipped to Russia due to the Revolution, and the Commies defaulted on the contracts claiming the rifles "didn't meet their high standards." (Meaning they couldn't pay for 'em.) To keep Remington and Westinghouse from going under, the U.S. Government bought 'em, using 'em for training rifles. They were widely disparaged and unpopular with the troops. (The "not invented here" syndrome, I think.) The bulk of 'em were sold for about $2 after the war to American civilians. (Some of 'em got Bubbaed by Bannerman to .30-06, and are dangerous to fire.) But the U.S. sent troops to Siberia to fight the Reds in the Russian Civil War and armed them with the U.S. built Mosins. Due to the close manufacturing tolerances and Americans' ignorance of how to lubricate rifles for extremely cold weather, they jammed badly. The Americans quickly discarded their Mosins, using Russian-made pickups instead. Fast-forward to about 1972. I was 16, and a friend of mine had a Mosin. It was a battlefield bringback from Korea. It was made by New England Westinghouse, with all markings intact. I now recognize that it was an M91/30 from the sights it had. The post was missing from the front sight, and of course we had no idea how we could get a replacement. The only source of ammo was the very expensive Norma stuff. We were trying to aim using the circular hood around the missing front sight. So we didn't shoot it a lot, but had fun with it. Wish I had that rifle today! I speculate that it was made in New England by Westinghouse, went to Russia carried by American soldiers to fight the Communist Russians, got abandoned there and picked up by the Reds, was later remodeled to M91/30 standard, probably was used to fight Germans through WWII, went to the Chinese/Koreans and was used against our soldiers in Korea, was captured there and 20 years later was a toy for a couple of goofy American teenagers. Probably belongs to a collector now. That's the "Circle of Life" for a military rifle.

Richochet, now that's a cool storey. - Dan

That's why I love the old miliatry rifles...they have a real history attached to them that most commercial rifles just don't have...and sometimes it is fun just to wonder where the rifle has been and what it has seen and done.

Rick

Thanks, Dan!

Yeah, how often have we said, "If this old rifle could only talk?" That's why I like the well worn old milsurps. I'm not that interested in an unissued one.