First we learned of this was the post on here. It in no way involves Vanessa's hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
First we learned of this was the post on here. It in no way involves Vanessa's hunt.

Happy to hear that for your partner’s sake.

Before this apparently came to your attention, you had some pretty glowing reports for the guide/outfitter, his ethics and contributions to wildlife management and cooperation with resident hunters. Would you still recommend his services? Would you hunt with this outfitter again?

Two out of three ain’t good… with apologies to Meatloaf!

No apparently about it.....we were totally surprised by the newspaper article.

We are very disappointed to learn of the conviction against Mac but were pleased to hear that he cooperated fully with the authorities. Before we come to any conclusions, we would definitely like to find out more details of the incident as it seems what was reported in the newspaper (it was an honest albeit stupid mistake) differs greatly from one of the poster's account of the incident (there was intent to break the law). Until we gain a better understanding of what actually transpired I don't feel it's fair to any of the parties to comment....so we won't.

Sheephunterab, Were you aware that some area's of Mac's concession were off limits until the end of August? Did you know what subzones you were in while hunting? If you did not know where you were and it was an open zone were the ram was killed lucky you! It seems others did not have the same fortune.
I wonder how many people really know exactly where they are while on a guided hunt? If they have a gps and map of the game zones they might have an idea. I think for the most part they trust their guide has some idea of where they are and if it is a legal area to hunt.
I would think an outfitter would know his area, especially if it is the only subzone in the area with a date restriction.

quote:

Originally posted by Alfonz:

I think for the most part they trust their guide has some idea of where they are and if it is a legal area to hunt.
I would think an outfitter would know his area, especially if it is the only subzone in the area with a date restriction.

I think this is part of what you pay for.THEY ARE GUIDING YOU. It is your responsibility to know the regulations, it is THEIR responsibility to know where it is legal to hunt.
Why would anyone pay for a guiding service knowing that they have been charged in the past?
I read about another case and similarly the defendant pled ignorance and was VERY sorry for their actions. What I think they really mean is I'm embarrassed that I got caught.
I do have a question. How does a hunter know , for sure, what zone he/she is hunting in other than the guide telling him/her?

Great pictures.

paying a guide doesn't make an illegal hunt legal.

As one poster has already mentioned, this is the second incident of convicting a guide where they have been outfitting in an off limits area in the past year. If I was a resident Yukon hunter, I would be looking for change.

Why do both incidents have potential connections to this TV show? Coincidence I'm sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Dead Eye:
Great pictures.

paying a guide doesn't make an illegal hunt legal.

As one poster has already mentioned, this is the second incident of convicting a guide where they have been outfitting in an off limits area in the past year. If I was a resident Yukon hunter, I would be looking for change.

Why do both incidents have potential connections to this TV show? Coincidence I'm sure.

Sorry, it is a presumption on my part to assume that a guide would, at least have you in a legal area.
What TV show would this be?

From the Star:

quote:

The offences took place during two sheep hunts in mid-August 2014 near Primrose Mountain, which is in the territory’s game management zone 7-23.The hunts saw two sheep harvested by non-residents.
Watson, a 32-year-old resident of Fort St. John, was not allowed to provide outfitted hunts in the zone until Aug. 31. He told the court he’d confused the area with zone 7-25, in which he was permitted to hunt.

Here's a map of 7-23 and 7-25. North Curls base camp has been marked BC. The valley of Rose creek is clear, its a low, broad, swampy sub alpine valley. Primrose mountain, which is where the offences occurred, is clearly marked. Give me a rational explanation how an experienced outfitter gets confused between these two areas?
TJ, you gave glowing reports of this outfitter, Yukon hunters expressed concern, you dismissed these concerns, and we were right. No need to jump to any conclusions, they've already been reached. I assert nothing, I'll let the facts speak for themselves. Any space left in your trophy room for some Crow?

I was told by a resident hunter he had put in for the draw to hunt the area (7-23) for five years and finally got drawn and when he arrived in early August all he was able to see were horse tracks and horse crap. So disappointed. The sheep were no where to be found in the area. The two resident hunters had a ruined hunt. The illegal outfitting affected not only these two hunters but other resident permit holder hunters who had waited years to be drawn.

Watson Lake

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Lake:
I was told by a resident hunter he had put in for the draw to hunt the area (7-23) for five years and finally got drawn and when he arrived in early August all he was able to see were horse tracks and horse crap. So disappointed. The sheep were no where to be found in the area. The two resident hunters had a ruined hunt. The illegal outfitting affected not only these two hunters but other resident permit holder hunters who had waited years to be drawn.

Watson Lake

yes i confirm that. i ve heard that story too, the sheps were not there and a lot of horsetracks.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
No apparently about it.....we were totally surprised by the newspaper article.

We are very disappointed to learn of the conviction against Mac but were pleased to hear that he cooperated fully with the authorities. Before we come to any conclusions, we would definitely like to find out more details of the incident as it seems what was reported in the newspaper (it was an honest albeit stupid mistake) differs greatly from one of the poster's account of the incident (there was intent to break the law). Until we gain a better understanding of what actually transpired I don't feel it's fair to any of the parties to comment....so we won't.

TJ,

he collaborated because he was caught ...

there is a judgement and plead guilty what else do you need?

i ve been to the courthouse and this is public his name and his business plus another guide working for him has accepted the bargain between the crown and the lawyer.

the maps dont lie, the hunters are not even on the papers of the courthouse and the money will be given to TIPPS line.

why arent you commenting as a party, does it mean you know more that you wrote?

we local hunters raised number of issues after your report and i think your better choose your next outfitter because before Mac you has been guided and promoted Brian Martin that has been caught at least two times in BC for wildlife violations to sum up as for Mac we called that Poaching ....

quote:

Originally posted by chin-gas-cook:

quote:

Originally posted by Alfonz:

I think for the most part they trust their guide has some idea of where they are and if it is a legal area to hunt.
I would think an outfitter would know his area, especially if it is the only subzone in the area with a date restriction.

I think this is part of what you pay for.THEY ARE GUIDING YOU. It is your responsibility to know the regulations, it is THEIR responsibility to know where it is legal to hunt.
Why would anyone pay for a guiding service knowing that they have been charged in the past?
I read about another case and similarly the defendant pled ignorance and was VERY sorry for their actions. What I think they really mean is I'm embarrassed that I got caught.
I do have a question. How does a hunter know , for sure, what zone he/she is hunting in other than the guide telling him/her?

in Yukon not exactly the guide is not protecting from doing or being in the wrong place.

no hunters are named and there is certainly a reason ... as yukon mountaineer shown on the map there is no way you do not know where you are.

In my humble opinion this area should be bought back by the Yukon Government. Not for an extravagant price bur a reasonable price.
I stand to be corrected but was this outfitter not given a quota on top of what resident hunters had been given for 18 years? Why were these sheep not given to the rightful owners Yukon residents for 18 yrs. Or did these sheep given to the outfitter suddenly appear.
I think that the resident hunters and their local spending on hunting is much greater than all the outfitters combined. Though I am certainly not against the outfitting industry. The recent YTG paying for a study on the financial effects of outfitters on the Yukon Economy should be countered with the same study using resident hunters economic effect on the Yukon Economy.
Using the same questions and criteria..
Or maybe this is for another discussion?
Watson Lake

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
First we learned of this was the post on here. It in no way involves Vanessa's hunt.

Sure hope that Abe Dougan or Bryan Martin weren't your guides on that hunt .

Must be the air around concession 17 that affects guides and outfitters.

Watson Lake

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Lake:
In my humble opinion this area should be bought back by the Yukon Government. Not for an extravagant price bur a reasonable price.
I stand to be corrected but was this outfitter not given a quota on top of what resident hunters had been given for 18 years? Why were these sheep not given to the rightful owners Yukon residents for 18 yrs. Or did these sheep given to the outfitter suddenly appear.
I think that the resident hunters and their local spending on hunting is much greater than all the outfitters combined. Though I am certainly not against the outfitting industry. The recent YTG paying for a study on the financial effects of outfitters on the Yukon Economy should be countered with the same study using resident hunters economic effect on the Yukon Economy.
Using the same questions and criteria..
Or maybe this is for another discussion?
Watson Lake

how can i agree more with that ...

another discussion for sure and maybe a new organisation to represent us the local hunters ... it is time ..

This is the Yukon Government Tender which just closed..

Title - Tender No. 2014/15-1399: YUKON OUTFITTERS SOCIO-ECONOMIC PROFILE AND SITUATIONAL ANALYSIS


The objective of this study is to demonstrate the socio-economic impacts that outfitters have on the Yukon economy and evaluate the current position of the outfitting industry.

Lets have this same study paid for by the Yukon Government on resident hunters..

Watson Lake

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Lake:
This is the Yukon Government Tender which just closed..

Title - Tender No. 2014/15-1399: YUKON OUTFITTERS SOCIO-ECONOMIC PROFILE AND SITUATIONAL ANALYSIS


The objective of this study is to demonstrate the socio-economic impacts that outfitters have on the Yukon economy and evaluate the current position of the outfitting industry.

Lets have this same study paid for by the Yukon Government on resident hunters..

Watson Lake

it s about time.

Medved
I thin if the Yukon government wants to portray a very good story about the benefit of the outfitting industry it is only fair the same is done for resident hunters..
Simple questions - how many jobs, where do you buy groceries, where do you buy your atv/argos where do you live out of season..etc, etc..

Watson Lake..

Any bears yet Medved. Went out today still too much snow..

Watson Lake

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Lake:
Medved
I thin if the Yukon government wants to portray a very good story about the benefit of the outfitting industry it is only fair the same is done for resident hunters..
Simple questions - how many jobs, where do you buy groceries, where do you buy your atv/argos where do you live out of season..etc, etc..

Watson Lake..

lol i can tell you that only 4 outfitters were buying locally the mountain house food for example. half of them are not even resident and despite that thwo years ago the outfitters has been paid their travel to las vegas for SCI ....

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Lake:
Any bears yet Medved. Went out today still too much snow..

Watson Lake

saw some tracks and scats but nothing yet ...

on another note it is become personal as TJ contacted me first to stop attack against his wife second to give him the report of the courthouse.

as it seems he do not believe me on what i have seen in courthouse.


TJ stop to contact me at work or on my personal email.

thank you.

Phil there is nothing personal at all and my intent was to deal with this privately with you and not on a public forum. You said you had seen documentation showing that Mac was turned in and was not found out by his own paperwork he turned in as the newspaper reported. I politely asked if you could provide it as my lawyer's office was not able to locate it despite calling the courthouse in Whitehorse. In fact they said the written reasons for judgement didn't exist yet. I'm still asking if you have that documentation but now you don't seem to be able to produce it despite sending me some dead end web links. To me it's a big difference if he made a stupid mistake and was found out by his own reports he turned in versus if he knowingly broke the law. You've brought a man's personal and business reputation into question on a public forum and I think you should at least be willing to back up your accusations. I just want to be able make an informed decision as to my future dealings with NorthCurl. If he made a mistake and fessed up he learned an expensive lesson but we all make mistakes. If he knowingly broke the law then that's a different story.

Tj,

this is not the first time you are dealing with an outfitter being caught and poaching.

brian martin is another example.

this is not already in the canlii for the case of Mac watson i was able to read it at the courthouse, i gave you the name of the judge and the paper released by YG enviromnent you got all the information to contact the courthouse.

i didnt make accusations i said what i ve seen and you seems the one trying to wash Mac in public but in private it s not the same story.

if you do not want to believe it that is not a problem for me.

they were at the wrong place during the wrong place time they ve been caught and plead guilty what else do you want to hear.

you said too that i put disgrace and i bullied your wife and her hunt sorry but not at all.

the watsons while in the outfitting area 15 had issues i told you that too and im not the only one.

we reported here what happen to the outfitter that host you for free and that you are promoting and we all told you that this is not the paradise it was.

do you want me to publish in integral all the emails you sent to me and i said i didnt want to be contacted by you ....

i have nothing to hide and do not protect myself behing a lawyer ... lol not scared by that one too ...

Deleted, as I see. Medved has already mentioned Bryan Martin.

If you ever find the documents I'd love to see them.

quote:

Originally posted by Alfonz:
Sheephunterab, Were you aware that some area's of Mac's concession were off limits until the end of August? Did you know what subzones you were in while hunting? If you did not know where you were and it was an open zone were the ram was killed lucky you! It seems others did not have the same fortune.
I wonder how many people really know exactly where they are while on a guided hunt? If they have a gps and map of the game zones they might have an idea. I think for the most part they trust their guide has some idea of where they are and if it is a legal area to hunt.
I would think an outfitter would know his area, especially if it is the only subzone in the area with a date restriction.

...

I was educated last night.
I learned that there are, for lack of a better term, Elitist forum posters.
They are the ones that expect full answers and proof from all others. But then give vague, or no answers in reciprocation. They also are know-it-alls. Maybe just to get their post count up?
Some peoples kids.

quote:

Originally posted by chin-gas-cook:
I was educated last night.
I learned that there are, for lack of a better term, Elitist forum posters.
They are the ones that expect full answers and proof from all others. But then give vague, or no answers in reciprocation. They also are know-it-alls. Maybe just to get their post count up?
Some peoples kids.

So who is the elitist poster, seems to be a few things that are vague, especially the courts if it doesn't mention who(hunters) killed the rams.
I still don't understand how 2 rams can be killed in an area that has no open season for those hunters at the time and the rams are not taking away and the outfitter not fined more.
Hopefully the Yukon residents are trying to do something about this if possible.
on a side note any of you Yukon residents hunt the Ruby range.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by chin-gas-cook:
I was educated last night.
I learned that there are, for lack of a better term, Elitist forum posters.
They are the ones that expect full answers and proof from all others. But then give vague, or no answers in reciprocation. They also are know-it-alls. Maybe just to get their post count up?
Some peoples kids.

So who is the elitist poster, seems to be a few things that are vague, especially the courts if it doesn't mention who(hunters) killed the rams.
I still don't understand how 2 rams can be killed in an area that has no open season for those hunters at the time and the rams are not taking away and the outfitter not fined more.
Hopefully the Yukon residents are trying to do something about this if possible.
on a side note any of you Yukon residents hunt the Ruby range.

Sage,

never hunted hardly there but we fish around a lot.

any infos you need?

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by chin-gas-cook:
I was educated last night.
I learned that there are, for lack of a better term, Elitist forum posters.
They are the ones that expect full answers and proof from all others. But then give vague, or no answers in reciprocation. They also are know-it-alls. Maybe just to get their post count up?
Some peoples kids.

So who is the elitist poster, seems to be a few things that are vague, especially the courts if it doesn't mention who(hunters) killed the rams.
I still don't understand how 2 rams can be killed in an area that has no open season for those hunters at the time and the rams are not taking away and the outfitter not fined more.
Hopefully the Yukon residents are trying to do something about this if possible.
on a side note any of you Yukon residents hunt the Ruby range.

Sage,

never hunted hardly there but we fish around a lot.

any infos you need?

No, use to work in there, thought could maybe share some info if of interest to anyone. Was a while ago but was nice country and some good hunting back then.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by chin-gas-cook:
I was educated last night.
I learned that there are, for lack of a better term, Elitist forum posters.
They are the ones that expect full answers and proof from all others. But then give vague, or no answers in reciprocation. They also are know-it-alls. Maybe just to get their post count up?
Some peoples kids.

So who is the elitist poster, seems to be a few things that are vague, especially the courts if it doesn't mention who(hunters) killed the rams.
I still don't understand how 2 rams can be killed in an area that has no open season for those hunters at the time and the rams are not taking away and the outfitter not fined more.
Hopefully the Yukon residents are trying to do something about this if possible.
on a side note any of you Yukon residents hunt the Ruby range.

Sage,

never hunted hardly there but we fish around a lot.

any infos you need?

No, use to work in there, thought could maybe share some info if of interest to anyone. Was a while ago but was nice country and some good hunting back then.

Sage,

fire away all the infos you have.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by chin-gas-cook:
I was educated last night.
I learned that there are, for lack of a better term, Elitist forum posters.
They are the ones that expect full answers and proof from all others. But then give vague, or no answers in reciprocation. They also are know-it-alls. Maybe just to get their post count up?
Some peoples kids.

So who is the elitist poster, seems to be a few things that are vague, especially the courts if it doesn't mention who(hunters) killed the rams.
I still don't understand how 2 rams can be killed in an area that has no open season for those hunters at the time and the rams are not taking away and the outfitter not fined more.
Hopefully the Yukon residents are trying to do something about this if possible.
on a side note any of you Yukon residents hunt the Ruby range.

Sage,

never hunted hardly there but we fish around a lot.

any infos you need?

No, use to work in there, thought could maybe share some info if of interest to anyone. Was a while ago but was nice country and some good hunting back then.

Sage,

fire away all the infos you have.

Tried to send a message not sure if it worked.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by chin-gas-cook:
I was educated last night.
I learned that there are, for lack of a better term, Elitist forum posters.
They are the ones that expect full answers and proof from all others. But then give vague, or no answers in reciprocation. They also are know-it-alls. Maybe just to get their post count up?
Some peoples kids.

So who is the elitist poster, seems to be a few things that are vague, especially the courts if it doesn't mention who(hunters) killed the rams.
I still don't understand how 2 rams can be killed in an area that has no open season for those hunters at the time and the rams are not taking away and the outfitter not fined more.
Hopefully the Yukon residents are trying to do something about this if possible.
on a side note any of you Yukon residents hunt the Ruby range.

Sage,

never hunted hardly there but we fish around a lot.

any infos you need?

No, use to work in there, thought could maybe share some info if of interest to anyone. Was a while ago but was nice country and some good hunting back then.

Sage,

fire away all the infos you have.

Tried to send a message not sure if it worked.

it worked.

quote:

You said you had seen documentation showing that Mac was turned in and was not found out by his own paperwork he turned in as the newspaper reported. I politely asked if you could provide it as my lawyer's office was not able to locate it despite calling the courthouse in Whitehorse. In fact they said the written reasons for judgement didn't exist yet. I'm still asking if you have that documentation but now you don't seem to be able to produce it despite sending me some dead end web links. To me it's a big difference if he made a stupid mistake and was found out by his own reports he turned in versus if he knowingly broke the law. You've brought a man's personal and business reputation into question on a public forum and I think you should at least be willing to back up your accusations. I just want to be able make an informed decision as to my future dealings with NorthCurl. If he made a mistake and fessed up he learned an expensive lesson but we all make mistakes. If he knowingly broke the law then that's a different story.

I've been on a lot of hunting forums over the years, and I can honestly say this is the first time I have ever seen someone mention getting their lawyers office involved.......... Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Back to the topic at hand though. I will make reference to the map shown above. Sheep killed in 7-23 on Primrose mountain (on the record). Closed to the outfitter at that time. Outfitter writes down 7-25 as the kill sub zone. Look at the map. Hell of a mistake. Hope he doesn't make too many more of them, it impacts resident permit hunts.

Full curl ram and didn't even break a nail. Looks wonderful.

I saw a wonderful full curl ram in Jasper Nat'l Park. Should I be able to make an 'honest mistake' and go down there and kill the sheep...

I can always claim it was just a mistake.

Should be able to keep the horns, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:
I saw a wonderful full curl ram in Jasper Nat'l Park. Should I be able to make an 'honest mistake' and go down there and kill the sheep...

I can always claim it was just a mistake.

Should be able to keep the horns, eh?

only in Yukon if you go with an outfitter ...

Phil...... any luck on the bear yet?

Going well down here. We got the first one of the season on May 3rd. Just an awesome boar........ fantastic coat and he weighed 462 pounds, hide squared a hair over 8 feet. Skull is around 21 but I doubt the hunter will ever get it measured as he just does not care.

Good guy and he deserves a bear like this. One of the best spring hides I have seen in years. Even the normally thin areas in the armpits and loins are quite heavily furred.