Hello. I don't think I've ever posted on the Canadian forum before. I usually go straight to Big Game Hunting. However, I just did my first 2 Canadian bear hunts: NB, and AB.

One problem that seems to be on the rise (and this is straight from my outfitters), is Canadians from one town hunting on outfitters without paying.

Example: My outfitter in Alberta had a group of hunters drive up from Calgary. They only wanted him to show them where the stands were and they'd pay him for the hunt only, no food or lodging, etc.

They agreed upon a price, and all 5 hunted for 3-4 days. On the next day, the outfitter called the hotel, and they'd already checked out. The outfitter called the one cell number he had and the guy (who made the agreement) stated that there were no bears and because the outfitter didn't "hold up his end of the agreement" they were not going to pay him.

Personally, I would have collected half up front which is what I find most outfitters do anyway, but the outfitter took this group on their word.

Now, here's the bad part: These same hunters come up and hunt when they want now because they know where the stands are and because it is public land, there's nothing the outfitter can do about it.

I personally think this is BAD hunter ethics and is unacceptable. Yet, there can be "sweet justice" according to the outfitter. Turns out that one of the guys fell from one of the 30 foot stands and died from injuries. A second one died of a heart attack while tracking a bear.

I'll post this under big game hunting too.

hooo boy! you opened a can of worms, I'll bet this turns out to be a regular melee. I understand both sides of the argument. Maybe the hunters were partially right and the outfitter had done a poor job of baiting etc. On the other hand Albertans feel (rightly so) that our public lands are for the use of the public. It's true that no outfitter has "rights" to the use of public land over those of the individual. I've also seen some damned arrogant behaviour from outfitters, including purposly spoiling things for other hunters, and trespassing on private land etc.

the chef

Well, I certainly see both sides of the coin as well, public land is public land, but if a resident KNOWS where an outfitter has put baits and did his homework and scouting, etc. I still think it's not right. Probably because I would not do that to another hunter. As far as the outfitter not baiting adequately, not so, he has 2 barrels at every stand. One is a reserve full of sweets. The other is loaded daily. I saw bears everyday.

When I was in Wyoming stalking a good antelope last fall, I had walked a good 2 miles off the gravel road. I was about 450 yards from the herd when a couple of trucks came blazing in and orange vests appeared eveywhere. Next thing you know, it sounded like a rapid fire rifle range. I had stalked in and was about 50 yards from taking a shot and I was fully visible to the other bunch of hunters.

They saw me and decided it's just as much their hunt as it was mine. Personally, I think the whole bunch of them are PRICKS, regardless of the fact that it was public hunting. Not only for what they did, but because 2 were almost directly behind me and shot anyway. NO BS.

BTW, when I started the stalk, there wasn't another vehicle for at least a 4 mile stretch north or south.

I don't care much for arrogant outfitters either and they should exhibit high ethics as a standard, but I don't think the outfitter I was with tried to override any resident "rights," he just wanted to get paid something for his efforts which was agreed upon before the hunting began.

Sure there's 2 sides to every story, and the truth. I wasn't there. Just fwding on the alleged events.

In New Brunswick, my guide told me that another outfitter would learn where his stands were, then set up one across the main road about a half mile away. My guide told me that this basically screws up both stands and nobody wins.

quote:

Maybe the hunters were partially right and the outfitter had done a poor job of baiting etc.

The hunters checked out the stands for themselves before they reached an agreement, I'm told. There was plenty of sign at the bait sights and several trails appeared to be several years old. It is my opinion that if they offered $$ for a semi-guided hunt, they should have paid. That is why it is called hunting and not killing (we've all heard that before). On the other hand, and I already said this, the outfitter SHOULD HAVE COLLECTED UP FRONT, just like with nonres. alien hunters.

I honestly believe that if a resident traveled to an outfitter and made such an agreement, then they had no intentions of paying anyway. I think that is wrong.

I personally try to stay out of the way of other hunters, outfitters, etc. Can't always be done. But I'll never drive up, or hike up to somebody's outfit or camp and expect to be hosted, be able to use infrastructure etc, not even for payment. By striking a deal with these people the outfitter entered into a business agreement, one that unfortunately wasn't honoured from one side. He could have just turned them down, shouted them a coffee and gone on with his business.

While public land is open for everybody to use, what about any infrastructure the outfitter puts up there? Can the outfitter refuse to third parties the use of anything he puts up on public land? What about liability if, as you state, somebody uses a tree stand and falls out?

I've never walked into an outfitter's camp that was actively hunting with clients at the time. I hope I never will, because it will be ackward for both of us.

It is situations like this that make me recommend fly-in bear hunts to my clients. I work with a few outfitters that use their own planes, or a charter to bring the clients into the backcountry. This weeds out 99.9% of local bear hunters, if not all.

Frans

That is an honorable means to hunt. You sound very ethical.

I'm curious, where were you in ALberta? Who did you hunt with?
Rich

I think it was 540. That is the number I remember.

Plihal.

Hello;
The Outfitter in question, is obviously a bad Business man.
Grizz

I think that if 2 people have a business arrangement, they shoudl honour it- But that is true in everythign , not jsut hunting.

Public land is public land, and if an outfitter erectsa tree stand on public land, it's still public.

It may be a little impolite to occupy a treestand, but htere is nothing preventing you from doing so.

I've never even been in a "real" tree stand, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatehouse:


Public land is public land, and if an outfitter erectsa tree stand on public land, it's still public.

It may be a little impolite to occupy a treestand, but htere is nothing preventing you from doing so.

A lot of people seem to have this idea but it is not quite that way. If you park your quad or pick-up or tent on public land it does not give anyone the right to enter your tent, or use your quad or truck simply because its on crown land at the time. Those items are private property as is a portable treestand someone puts there as is the bait and bait barrel. The guy has no right to use your stand or bait as it is not his to use. If someone sets themselves up on a bait that dosent belong to them they can be asked to leave and find their own bait site, if they refuse saying its just as much my land as it is yours a call to the warden will result in them being told to find their own bait site and treestand along with a lecture in hunting ethics. In Alberta all bait sites have to have visable signeage surrounding a bait site so unwary tourists/hikers/fishermen/other hunters don't stumble upon them unknowingly and find themselves in conflict with a bear defending his supper. The signs must have the owners name, WIN(wildlife identification number) for residents, or in the case of outfitters a big game outfitter-guide permit number, or big game guide designation number. The problem is some unethical dickhead will invariably find them and if no one is there will use them hoping nobody comes around and take advantage of someone elses work and planning. Legally you can have them evicted if they are there without your permission. They can be charged with interferring with a legal hunt or hunter harrasment if they persist.

I think that the problem exists everywhere and is a part of hunting that we all would like to see eliminated, but, will not be in the forseeable future. I think that although I am a rock-solid, hard-line advocate of residents rights to preference in hunting opportunities, etc., the description of those two was apt, "pricks". Best thing is to back off, go home, lock up your guns and then find them outside the bar on a dark night....and shitkick them good and proper!

This reminds me of the '70s when a pair of B.C. Guide/Outfitters were being harassed by some Greenpuke assholes, Dr. Patrick Watson and his hairhead buddies....so, the boys just punched out the pseudo-environmentalists and the trouble stopped. Sometimes, "direct action" as the eco-whackos call it works both ways!

Renegging on an agreement is plain wrong. On the otherhand, it is public land and no it can't be compared to entering a tent or truck. Thats personal property. If you built a permanant stand or a cabin on crown land which I believe in most cases is not allowed, that aside, you can't keep people out( I can only speak for BC). Thats fact. I wouldnt occupy a Guide/outfitters stand but I'd have no problem returning to an area that I paid to learn. I do it all the time with fishing. The guide shows you the holes, you return later and fish it yourself. The guide knows he's charging you for this. With hunting guides its a trade off with the residents of that province as well as the outfitters. They are fortunate enough that we don't let non-residents and aliens hunt non-guided like some states do. It could get pretty crowded and they'd lose their shirt right off their back because face it, we happen to be where everyone else want to hunt not the other way round.

In this case the guide can't complain about people returning on their own. If he doesnt want it, don't do buisness that way. If he wants to be paid, demand it up front. Seems like he's shooting himself in the foot.

Its really unfortunate that some people have no shame in the way they behave and show complete lack of respect.

Theres no problem with hunting Canada. I do it all the time!!

This is just another reason often put forth by outfitters when asked why they don't like to book residents. I've seen the same situation often. ~Arctic~

I have also seen the situation reversed, where an outfitter came into an area and locals being friendly and wanting the guy to do good point out some prime locations, find that the next year the outfitter has leased that land for the hunting season or has leased the land that allows the only reasonable access to the public lands and tuff cookies for the locals.

I know my area and where the big bucks are and the prime bear spots and where the moose like to hang out and it will be a cold day somewhere, before I tell another outfitter anything about an area or let them hunt my property or use it as an access, because I hunt for relaxation and the challenge, they do it for the money and that is the bottom line to them and if you have to inconvienence the locals, to secure the prime spots for thier clients, big deal, the locals don't contribute to the bottom line.

Poor attitude? maybe, but I won't shut out local families who have hunted said piece of land for generations, in pursuit of the almighty dollar either.

The problem is with the outfitter being a little too greedy. The rest you can chalk up to the lower part of human behavior. I,as an Alberta resident, hunt blacks where baiting is not allowed(basically where there are grizzlies as well). Dont have to deal with that problem. This year five of us took five bears out of the more than 40 (thats right) we found quading the back trails and staking out good clover patches.

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you boileroom!

Sounds like bad judgement on the part of the outfitter to accept this sort of client or arrangement. However must say the hunters need to take a class in ethics as well and I would have to think their intent from the on set was to get the lay of the land then go solo.

First off public land is just that however, I would assume it is illegal to hunt over or near other persons bait/stands in Alberta like it is here in saskatchewan if signed or marked appropriately. If this is the case the outfitter could somewhat combat this by marking his baits appropriately in the first place, then if the locals arrived they would in fact be in violation. Shouldn't come to that but sometimes we have to deal with those individuals who don't play by the same book.

In any regard I don't see the need to crowd other hunters, in fact I prefer to be as far away as possible it just makes practical sense to me.

Hopefully the outfitter has learned something about how to conduct a viable business and be able to move forward. I hold little hope for such individuals that would partake in this type of behaviour just to possibily harvest an animal, but maybe some ray will hit them squarely on the head and they realize that the fun is in the chase not in the tagging! Beyond me why success for some is measured in filled tags..TRULY IS SAD!

Hello;
I don't know if you have any property rights to a tree stand or bait, but it would only seem to be ethical not to use another Person's, outfitter or not. We had a case near Ft. Mac Murray about 10 years ago, where a Norwegian hunter was shot and killed, while supposedly sitting in someone elses tree stand. As far as i know, no one was ever charged for that.
Grizz