Can anyone tell me why it costs any where from 6000us to 8000us to hunt caribou and you take 2 caribou when for the same price you can go to RSA and take several different animals with the price of airfare included.Why is it so expensive to hunt in Canada? What makes hunting white tail on public land worth 3500us for 5 days? Has anyone got an answer other than greed.

Well, it primarily boils down to monopoly power with many outfitters. I just happily paid the price of a decent little African plains game safari to hunt in Canada for a single species that is unhuntable almost anywhere else in Canada or the world. Further, I think there is a lot less outfitter competition in North America for many species (or really good areas for some species) than you see in Africa for your average plains game hunt. The relative number of dangerous game areas in Africa starts to reflect more accurately the situation for many species in North America. Think about the difference in North America between a Pronghorn hunt in Wyoming which can be had for between $750 and $1200 in many cases relative to a hunt for Grizzly or Brown Bear. There are fewer outfitters running the latter type of hunts just like there are fewer outfitters running hunts for Elephant or Cape Buffalo, or even glamour plains game species like Bongo or Lord Derby Eland. Prices reflect this.
The second factor is obviosuly costs. It is going to cost very little money (relatively) in Africa to put together staff and properly equip the average plains game safari. In the US or Canada, costs are much higher simply because people will demand to be paid a "real" wage that allows them to meet day to day North American expenses. Think about what a camp cook in Africa needs to support his family relative to a camp cook in Canada or the US. As an example, I was just researching what average high school teachers earn in Egypt. The starting salary is 120 Egyptian pounds per month. That is just about $20 USD. Now imagine how little my Shokari expected to be paid during my two day Egyptian waterfowl safari recently.
Equipment is another factor. There is a big difference between maintaining a Lancruiser in Africa to shuttle clients to and from a hunt area and maintaining a bush plane in The Yukon to scout and transport clients. Day to day camp costs for food, utensils, tents etc. are also likely to be cheaper in Africa than the U.S.
The reality is that I know more than a few North American outfitters to whom I and others have paid significant sums of money. None of them are retiring early or living like kings.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

It is quite simple because you guys will pay that much. You used to be able to get a caribou
hunt in Manitoba for $1500 canadian dollars. It used to residents only once they opened it up to any body you have to pay $3000 U.S. dollars.

Why does it cost over $20,000 for sheep? cause there are only so many tags given out and there are a hell of a lot more guys wanting to hunt sheep or grizzlies or whatever than there are tags for them. So it comes down to a bidding war and the outfitters can charge what the market will bear. Thats what all business does, charge the most people will pay.

It's simple supply and demand.Alberta and British Columbia have the best supply of trophy animals such as bighorn and stone sheep so the hunts in these provinces sell for extremely high prices.Alberta and Saskatchewan have the same situation with whitetailed deer.Many species of caribou are only available in Canada so prices are high.

Yep, supply and demand.
Outfitters can charge what the market will bear.

quote:

---

Originally posted by prairiewolf:
Can anyone tell me why it costs any where from 6000us to 8000us to hunt caribou and you take 2 caribou when for the same price you can go to RSA and take several different animals with the price of airfare included.Why is it so expensive to hunt in Canada? What makes hunting white tail on public land worth 3500us for 5 days? Has anyone got an answer other than greed.

---

The real reason? To keep the whiners happy!


Accutually JTG. explains it well.


There is some truth to supply and demand...
and what the market will bear is B.S

If you disagree with this, then go get in the Outfitting business. See what it costs to operate and stay in business.

Big game outfitting is a tough business. Bush planes, horses,tack, camps, gear, food, logistics and manpower adds up. Things like abnormal weather can make costs sky rocket. Bad weather happens but when something out of the ordinary happens, it ends up costing alot more.
The logistics and expence, supplying a camp in Northern B.C, Yukon or NWT. is no small task.
If a bear manages to break into camp, alot of things get deystroyed. The camp usually has to be resupplied. Planes and boats have small mishaps. Having spares on hand costs lots of money. I can attest that this trade is hard on equpment. This is not camp cupcake.(allthough we try to make things as comfortable as possible.)

I have not been to Africa, but alot of the hunters I have guided have been. They often make comments on the differances between here and there. The most common thing I hear is the difficulty and the remoteness of the places we hunt compared to Africa.

Also, I am curious what The PH's are paying thier African staff?
Compare this with Canada.

How many animals can an outfit take or sell in Africa?
Compare this with what an outfit can take in Canada.
This is a big reason you will see a cost differance. If an Outfitter could sell 30 sheep hunts instead of 5, his profit relative to his costs would be much higher. Problem is sustainability. I am sure in Africa they have to manage thier game, too. If I am not mistaken Africa has alot more game they can sell.

There are other things I could go into, but hopefully you get the point.

My reason.
Cost of doing business.


Got to go,

Daryl

There is some truth to both sides of this argument. It is somewhat supply and demand, but also the requirements for a decent wage of the employees. Africa does have a longer season, i.e. more hunters in a given year. It is not just Canada, North American hunting in general is getting more expensive. But now with the weakness of the dollar, Africa is getting pricier as well.

One question I have is why does it seem to cost more to book a hunt in the Yukon or NWT than in Alaska? There are many hunts for interior Grizzly or Dall sheep in Alaska that can be had for $7500 to $10,000 US. However, many Dall sheep hunts in the Yukon or NWT are going for $13,000+ US. This seems odd when you consider that when I was in the Yukon this fall a Canadian dollar was worth about .75 cents US.

Chet

Chet,

Good question.

What does an outfitter have to pay to purchase the area or concession that he hunts in?

In Northern B.C, Yukon and the NWT, the market price of a hunting concession is similar. They are all exspensive.
Some hunting areas in the Yukon are selling for close to 1,000,000,000 U.S.
I have not paid to much attention to how the system works in Alaska. As far as I know you don't have to purchase an area in Alaska.
I am sure someone will be able to clear this up. I have a good friend who has worked in Alaska. I will check with him.


Daryl

A whitetail outfitting licence allocation in Alberta is going for about $10,000 to $15,000 in a decent zone, not to mention the $1000/ year in insurance plus about $1000/year/tag in renewal and extra licence fees. Now you have to pay your guide he will cost you $100 a day minimum, plus gas say another $100 a day.
Then you figure on a 3 to 5 year return on your investment. thats about $3000/year just to break even. All right. lets add it up.
3000+1000+200+ 50(insurance)= 4250. and no business man will do anything for less than a 50% profit margin add about another $2000 then your at $6250. Makes a $3000 hunt mighty lucrative in comparison.
It cost do be an outfitter, not to mention that in Alberta the tag allocations are on a open auction type system so the price of these tags are going up every time the are re sold. so book now before the price goes up.
And no i dont outfit either, i just keep my ear to the ground and talk to lots of people.

Because Canadians get paid more than 50 cents a month...

quote:

Originally posted by Yukoner:
[QUOTE]The most common thing I hear is the difficulty and the remoteness of the places we hunt compared to Africa.

Boy, you can say that again! Show me a place in Africa that would truly REQUIRE an air charter or required horses to pack in gear and clients like many of the places in Canada and I will show you total daily rates that far exceed the price of most Canadian hunts or African air charter fees that more than make up the difference. The only way a price advantage MAY still even slightly exist is brought about by the extremely low wage costs being incurred by the African operator. I shudder to think what any African company would charge for a 14 day horseback, carry your own gear in to a super remote area, elephant or buffalo safari! Hunting Canada and the US would start to look cheap I suspect.
The truth is that African plains game is cheap because of relatively easy access, game abundance (lower fixed costs per head of game taken), and low labor and equipement costs. In terms of access, relative scarcity of game, labor expenses and necessary gear...North American hunting for the upper tier game like Elk, free roaming Bison, a really good Mule Deer, Brown Bear etc. are really more comparable to a dangerous game or premium plains game hunt in Africa.
NA hunting starts to look like a bargain when viewed in this light. Think about it...you will pay a minimum of $7000 (more likely $8000 or $9000)for a cape buffalo hunt or say $6000 for a 10 day sable hunt (anyone priced Roan lately...OUCH!). I can hunt a much more remote area in Canada for free roaming bison for about the same money as cape buffalo (or $1000-$2000 less if we are talking Tanzania) and some really out of the way areas for elk at a much lower rate than the sable. A truly great mule deer is definitely a more exclusive trophy than your average cape buffalo and may be more intriguing to me than taking an average Roan. What does a top of the line Mule deer hunt cost in North America....$5K? $6K? maybe $7K? Certainly less than Cape Buffalo, Roan, Sable or other glamour plains game (Bongo, Lord Derby Eland etc.). I guess my point is that comparing a plains game safari to hunting some big game in North America is inappropriate. Comparing the costs of hunting PG in Zim to hunting Pronghorn, mediocre Whitetails, an average Mule Deer, black bear...this makes sense. Comparing PG hunts to a backcountry Elk hunt, real Bison, premium Whitetail (a la King Ranch), Brown Bear etc. is just not realistic. Enjoy hunting North America while it's still cheap. Those $13000 sheep hunts will be $20,000 before you know it.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Yukoner

quote:

Some hunting areas in the Yukon are selling for close to 1,000,000,000 U.S.

Call me skeptical, but I find it hard to believe ANYONEhas a $ BILLIONto put up for hunting rights. Would take quite a while to recoup costs like that when everyone says that outfitters don't make that much?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OldGuy:
Call me skeptical, but I find it hard to believe ANYONEhas a $ BILLIONto put up for hunting rights.QUOTE]

Typo is my guess....

JohnTheGreek

A billion is a little pricey, but 1 million is not out of the question...

quote:

Originally posted by OldGuy:
Yukoner

quote:

Some hunting areas in the Yukon are selling for close to 1,000,000,000 U.S.

Call me skeptical, but I find it hard to believe ANYONEhas a $ BILLIONto put up for hunting rights. Would take quite a while to recoup costs like that when everyone says that outfitters don't make that much?

Doughpttt...

Kids leaving food on the keyboard. I have got a sticky button.

I use the same excuse when I deposit $$$ at the bank.



Yeah, it is a typo. It is supposed to be ONE MILLION U.S. Dollars.


Daryl

You can hunt caribou alot cheaper in Quebec than you can in B.C. Hunts in B.C. are as rugged as they get. There is alot of sheep country where you can't even land a plane for 100's of sq KMs. Nothing is easy here. I want to point out that alot of B.C's guiding services are American owned. Maybe ask them why they charge you so much!

Simple, they want to make LOTS of $$$$, that is what business is all about!!!! Of course, this situation discriminates against young, native-born Canucks in their own country, but, who cares, eh!


Except about the poor, downtrodden "First Nations" of course............

Nothing is easy here?????, well, I dunno, it seems to me that chicanery and cultural treason come pretty easily to most of our politicians; or else, foreign ownership of B.C. Guide/Outfitter territories, in ANY form, including so calle 'silent partners' would be permanently banned and B.C. boys would have a chance to own their own G/O territories. I ain't holding my breath.

This is a good thread. Let's see if we can keep it from becoming a border war and pizzin contest.

quote:

Originally posted by boilerroom:
You can hunt caribou alot cheaper in Quebec than you can in B.C. Hunts in B.C. are as rugged as they get. There is alot of sheep country where you can't even land a plane for 100's of sq KMs. Nothing is easy here. I want to point out that alot of B.C's guiding services are American owned. Maybe ask them why they charge you so much!

Very good point!



Daryl

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:
This is a good thread. Let's see if we can keep it from becoming a border war and pizzin contest.

I agree!

I was concerned about it turning into a "border war" when I first responded to this post. I think everyone has been reasonable.



Daryl

I also question why anyone would pay the fees quoted above. That is not to say there are not reasons for the price but more a question as to why there are buyers. I have also heard of some astronomical prices for fenced "hunts" in the US for whitetails. I do know of shoot farms here that will take a lot of money for quaranteed success on penned elk. I believe the prices reflect the fact that some people have so much money that what I and many here call outrageous is small change to them.

Murf,

You question why someone would pay that much and why there are buyers.

Well, I quess it depends on how much you like
sheep hunting or hunting in real wilderness.

It amazes me what people will spend thier money on. I wonder what it costs to climb Mt.Everest. People will spend alot of money on alot of different things that will suit them.

The other reason is because it is available.

You are right about people that have fat wallets and $ is not an issue. Does not matter where you are in society. People with money get to do things and go places others don't. Having wealth in our society puts you higher up on the food chain.

Since I was old enough to read, I wanted to hunt in Northern B.C and the Yukon. I could never afford it. I moved here from Sask. so that I could experience the lifestyle I have now. Some people are willing to do things that others won't.

One thing that I can tell you is that the hunters that I have guided that have saved for years to be able to go on a sheep/caribou or Alaska/Yukon moose hunt, a ONCE in a lifetime hunt for them, have never regretted it. For most, it was an ultimate experience. I know of some that have somehow mananged to come back because it was so worthwhile for them.

There are some, not many, but some wealthy people get the same experience. Most don't have the same appreciation.

I quess what I am trying to say is, money isn't everything.



Thanks for listening.


Daryl

What Daryl just said.

I scrimp and save to enjoy wilderness...and what the heck
you can't take it with you.

It does not cost 8 or 5 or 20 thousand to go hunting.Nobody has the decent right to claim that is a reasonabale cost for a hunt.The thing that makes things too expensive is simply a LACK OF CLASS.A drug addict owner will charge you 10 or 20x the right price,and you just happen to be in the wrong state of mind and accept.The problem is there is too much sleaze out there.Many times one is offered a hunt when the club owner knows there is no game out there.There is this sort of thing that you find everywhere.There is a valid price for everything and then there is a 'fish price'.It's like going to the dentist getting charged the full price and having a student with hands trembling do the work.

SHOOTAWAY,

Sorry don't know anything about drugs

Sounds like to me that you are talking out your ass.

I don't want to change your mind about how you feel about these hunts, though. This way you will stay out of our camps.



Daryl

The story about people having big money etc... is a tactic used to make one feel he is a nobody and that if he wants to "belong to the camp" he has to do the same.Again, only if you are a fish.I respect people who are in the hunting business and who are very knowledgeable of that business,but I like to be respected as a customer who does not find money growing on trees.You could pay someone a fortune for anything,and get nothing in return.

Shootaway,

Actually, $5k or $8k or $20k may be a reasonable price for a hunt. In fact, it may be a bargain! Please read the above discussion of the costs associated with running an outfit in The Yukon or The NWT.
As for the social pressure you reference to "belong to the camp". I think this definitely exists but only if you have this in your psyche to begin with and outfitters shouldn't be faulted for the psychological problems faced by their clients. Veblen would boil what you said down to the simple phrase "conspicuous consumption". This has much less to do with what one consumes than why one consumes it. One can pay $20K for a hunt in Cameroon and enjoy the hunt as much or more than someone who pays $10K can't they? They can be just as dedicated to hunting can't they? Further, the friends of our "rich" hunter in Cameroon may never know what he paid for the hunt. Is someone guilty of a Veblenesque sin in the act of paying or in the act of bragging about what they paid?

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

First off, I live in the US (not too far from Canadian Border).

Question is Why hunt Canada?

Answer: Why not?

Two fish are swimming along...one swims into a wall,turns
to the other and says "dam".

The drive around hunts in Canada not included.....try keeping 12-20 plus head of "good" horses year round. Training, shoeing, veterinary etc. Plus purchasing expensive saddles, and other tack.
The cost of 4wd vehicles and horse trailers, upkeep and maintenance. Bonds and insurance, advertising, including costly trips to shows.
Hiring guides, cooks, wranglers. Good ones! At a decent wage for the sake of your clients and business.
Continually dealing and fighting with gov't.
All this for only several weeks out of a full year?
Bin there done that, have the physical and mental scars

hound

hound,


I just sold a couple of horses to a local outfitter who lost 13 horses to wolves this winter. Not so common. Just more snow than usual made the horses easy targets.

Mobilizing a large string of horses before the hunt and after the hunt is a big job. The work starts long before the hunter gets there and does not end the minute he leaves.


I was going to go into some of this stuff but just like when it comes to anti's, you aren't going to change any whinners minds.


Daryl

quote:

Originally posted by hound:
The drive around hunts in Canada not included.....try keeping 12-20 plus head of "good" horses year round. Training, shoeing, veterinary etc. Plus purchasing expensive saddles, and other tack.
The cost of 4wd vehicles and horse trailers, upkeep and maintenance. Bonds and insurance, advertising, including costly trips to shows.
Hiring guides, cooks, wranglers. Good ones! At a decent wage for the sake of your clients and business.
Continually dealing and fighting with gov't.
All this for only several weeks out of a full year?
Bin there done that, have the physical and mental scars

hound

__ Hound,
About a year ago, Jim Shockey did an article on this very thing about cost, logistics, etc. It was in a Canadian hunting magazine that he is a regular guest writer for. I dont remember the name of the mag, but he broke it down to the detailed level. For those that dont understand or appreciate what all is involved in producing a quality hunt, it's a real good read. He does it from an "Outfitter's perspective". By that, I mean, not just for Canada but for the industry.

Well guys, i am glad i'm out of that business. I started guiding Moose hunters in north central Alberta in the late 60's. Then graduated to Elk, Grizzley, etc on the east slopes in the 70's.
Sold my outfitting business out in 89', after i realised that i had to get big or get the hell out! When one depends on the weather, the gov't, and the "flavor of the month" greenies for a living ya kinda wonder if maybe all those big bores have scrambled your eggs?

hound

I like hunting Canada, but I guess it's much different for a resident due to costs. I've known Americans to spend $3000 for non-resident guided hunts, but I can go to the conservation office nearby and speak to anybody in wildlife game management and get maps of the best areas and go hunt for $50. I guess it helps that I support all their computers for them, but still, the information is there and publicly available. It comes down to what the hunt is worth to the hunter, Americans willing to spend $3000 for a trophy caribou or moose might be paying the big money for an opportunity they may not get otherwise. I know when I go hunting, my success rate is much lower than the local outfitters. But I have a lifetime to hunt Manitoba, whereas others might only have 5 days...

My 2 unworthy cents: the costs is going up and up.because somebody is willing to pay.PERIOD.Not because it costs more-which it also does but think in proportions please.
Wjthout trying to stay too close to reality
the actual outfitter cost in NA ,for the typical outfitter isn't that highne lives in tents, the food is average,he has to pay 1 guide for you,usually somewhere above minimum as jobs are hard to come by.He has to feed horses thru the year,that costs.Bush plane - sorry,everytime ,I pay seperate.
The outfitters profit -I think- is far greater in Canada then in Africa,where corruption demands to grease many hands,staff consists of 25 or more folks,granted at low wages.Transportation of goodies into camp is an achievement of unheard proportions.I am not talking of a ranch hunt in SA.
Hunting -whether we like it or not- is a competitive market driven BUSINESS.