as far as the guides contoling the area closures that isn't
realy accurate a few years ago I was involved on a commitee
that was laying out road closures, this was being done because of large blocks of timber was removed by loggers
so the game in the area had very little cover the timber
is starting to come back now so our local rod & gun club
is discussing revisiting the reason for these closures
with the ministry of enviroment but its tough because in an
area with a population of 4000 people we get 6 or 8 guys at
a meeting most hunters are too dam lazy to get off their
but and go to a meeting or write a letter so the miistry
thinks their happy with the way things are. im not a big
guide fan but they get off their asses and get things done
if it wasn't for the actions of bob fontana and a few others
there would be no grizzly hunting in b.c. I realise that
the guides did this for their benefit but the rest of us
got at least a chance to hunt grizzlies because of their efforts

I have, in common with many other Canadians, been growing increasingly concerned about the huge presence in our game fields of foreign hunters, most of whom are Americans. The harvest of certain relatively rare species, especially Stone's Sheep, Grizzlies and Rocky Mountain Goats as well as Caribou has been dominated by American trophy hunters for decades. This has, IMO, resulted in the diminuition of opportunities for both B.C. residents and our fellow Canucks.

It is now impossible to hunt wild Sheep of any species here in B.C. without either a Guide/Outfitter or, rarely, a certain blood-marital relationship. So, someone from Ontario, for example, whose family came to Canada 200-300 yrs. ago cannot hunt in B.C. unless he is very wealthy as a Sheep hunt goes for about 25 grand.

Is this what we really want, to have our most precious natural resources hanging on the trophy walls of rich Yanks who support a government that has discriminated against our agricultural and forest products while braying about "NAFTA" and demanding that we sell them our irreplaceable resources, i.e., natural gas, at the same prices that our own people pay?

Maybe it is time to end the practice of foreigners buying Guide-Outfitter territories, even with a Canadian partner or "front" and also to stop Non-Resident hunting. I, for one, would like to see some sort of lottery system whereby a portion of the annual harvest of each animal species was open to ALL Canadians in each Province. It is time we stood up for what is OURS and managed our resources wisely, for OUR benefit. Comments???

.

You have a point. I think I'd be happy to trade some bighorn opportunties (e.g. a resident could be allowed a tag once every two years, irrespective of success) in exchange for a shot at a dall or stone tag in BC, or higher up north.

Can't comment on the outfitter issues, I know too little of it.

Do you mean that some outfitters actively "dissuade" resident hunters from the areas they lease or own (as in owning the non-resident hunting rights)?

Am I correct in assuming that a resident in BC can hunt even in these areas?

Frans

you suggesting we substitute americans for guys from ontario
no thanks

One of the problems in B.C. is that the Guide Outfitters Association of B.C. actively lobbies the Provincial Wildlife Biologists and other government personnel concerning quotas and also areas restricted to motor vehicle access. By doing so, they actively "lock up" certain very high quality hunting areas to their own use; this is because most B.C. hunters are ordinary guys who cannot afford to maintain a packstring for their annual hunting trip.

I have hunted, three times, in northern B.C. and, each time, I noticed a resentment of me and other resident hunters by the paid staff of the Guide/Outfitter. I actually had this commented on to me by fellow resident hunters in one camp, in 2003. There were we two B.C. boys, humble meat hunters, ages 62 and 57, on separate trips and two very wealthy Yanks from Oregon, about our age.

The Yanks were able to hunt wherever the spirit moved them, while the Head Guide insisted we stay down along the Gatho Cr. Valley and NOT hike into the high country where the big Elk were calling. Dave, the other resident hunter, was born in New Brunswick, is a veteran of the PPCLI and spent more than 30 yrs. as a "Faller" on the B.C. coast. I was born in B.C., my family came to North America, both the USA and Canada, in the mid-17th Century and to B.C. before Confederation, yet, Dave's and my "rights" are not equal to a rich Yanks!

The whole issue is simply why should ANY CANADIAN take second place to a Yank or any other foreigner in our own country? Frans is an immigrant to Canada and I think that he has as much right to hunt in B.C. as any other Canuck and more than any foreigner. The contribution, in financial terms of the whole Guide-Outfitter industry to B.C. per annum is miniscule, many of these people are wealthy Yanks who buy and run these operations as private fiefdoms for their rich buddies-fuck that!

I will say that NO guide or Guide-Outfitter on or off a horse is ever going to prevent me from going hunting wherever I damned well want to, period! But, the point is that they do control access to huge areas of the finest hunting and we suffer because of it. This land is OUR land, it ain't THEIR land!!!!

Being from BC, I have a few major problems with your comments like "to have our most precious natural resources hanging on the trophy walls of rich Yanks who support a government that has discriminated against our agricultural and forest products".

How about what a lot of BC'ers think "to have our most precious natural resources hanging on the trophy walls of rich hunters from Ontario and Quebec who support a Liberal government that has discriminated against the West."

Nothing like going to vote and coming home 1 minute after the Polls closed and finding out another Liberal Majority government. Good thing I voted as it seems Western votes never count.

As I have stated before to Americans, why should you have the same rights as I do here, you dont pay taxes here. And the tax money you do give up stays in the East.

On to the guiding stuff, guides have exclusive guiding rights in an area, I can hunt any one of their areas I just cant guide there. Sure the outfitter has a big advantage over me. He has all the equiptment and most likely lives most of the year in his guide territory.

I have heard of guides shooting animals in front of hunters and I have heard of BC hunters dropping animals right in front of US hunters. This just happened with the last BC Sheep permit. The US hunter buys the sheep tag for 100,000 G's and the come to set up camp where the guide does every year and the resident is already there, so they move on. The next day the guide spots a 195 B&C bighorn and tells the US hunter theres your sheep. All of a sudden a shot rings out and the ram tumbles off the mountain courtesy the resident who drew the tag.

The hunters in BC are trying to get the guides permits reduced (they are supposed to get 10% of the resident harvest), but this is for residents to use not people from outside of BC. Call me selfish if you want, but that is the way a lot of us out here think.

If one permit was issued to a non-resident Canadian, where would it stop. Next year two. Then all the tags would be going to Ontario anyways, becuase thats where the most people live. Then others provinces would each want a tag. Dont laugh, becuase I see it here. Hunters in the interior get mad becuase a lot of tags go to people in the Vancouver area (surprise half the people live down there). Some people want half the available tags to be reserved for people in that region. Is that fair? Yes if you live in that region, no if you live in Vancouver.

So where do we draw the line? It has been drawn at the BC border. I have no problems with the people who live in the east or Americans. I will be the first one to open the welcome door if you want to move here, but dont expect me to share my priveledge with someone who lives across the country and only comes here to hunt. The next thing you know my over the counter sheep tag becomes a draw tag. No thanks.

Alex

Kutenay,

I think your first paragraph comes very close to the mark. I blame outfitters / guides for a lot of the sport's fee problems. New Mexico guides / outfitters were very effective in lobbying that all non-residents should be forced to hunt with (pay) a local guide/outfitter. I lived and hunted in New Mexico for over twenty years, then moved to Texas. Suddenly I need a guide/outfitter to show me where the Sacramento Mountains are. Get real!

I had friends this year from out-of-state hunt near Reserve, New Mexico for elk. They paid about $2,000 each and basically got dumped out, and told, "the elk are in them-there mountains, boys". They saw one, but all came back empty handed.

It's not the "aliens" that are the problem, it's the people making the money off the "aliens".

The point is Alex, that the Sheep are now on an LEH draw system in many areas as are certain other species. Yet, foreign hunters are able to get access to a reserved portion of this small number of huntable animals while ordinary Canadians cannot. I do not propose opening the door to competition from people from Ontario and Quebec for every tag issued, I simply would like to see a small portion of the tags in each Province open to a lottery in which both residents and other Canadians could participate.

We need to take better care of our resources in Canada and to stop selling them to foreigners for relatively miniscule prices. There is an attitude on the part of a considerable number of American hunters that I have met in camps here that they have the "right" to hunt here because they can afford to. This is mirrored in the attitude that I have had expressed to me by Guide-Outfitters in both B.C. and Alberta that Sheep hunting is a rich man's sport.

The political situation concerning voting that you refer to is not really germane to this discussion, IMO; in any event, it is NOT the fault of hunters from Ontario or Quebec. This attitude also works against Canadian nationalism and I think that changing the political system is the way to go, not discriminating against our fellow Canadians.

It is the fact that Guide-Outfitters can tie up Crown lands and have exclusive rights to a portion of the game in a given area that concerns me and that foreigners then get preferential access to these lands and this game.Apparently, here in B.C., the GOABC is now attempting to further increase the stranglehold over this situation that they now enjoy.

Most of the Guide-Outfitters I have known do not live in their guiding territories, but, that is irrelevant as my question is about what we can do to improve matters for residents while protecting our resources from foreign exploitation. I have lived and worked all over B.C. and much of Alberta, in resource management, I do not think that this should have any bearing on where I can hunt, reserving tags for a geographical region is not acceptable to me.

Post deleted by brassbender

The second and third posts have been deleted and I apologize to those decent members of this forum for unnecessarily posting copies. As to kutenay, you have the temerity to call my post ill-mannered? I suppose we American's should simply smile and consider the sources of such diatripe as your original post. Your language is that of a miniscule mind as is the content of your response.

I don't doubt that you formerly participated in sordid activities, your ill mannered screed which adds nothing to the discussion demonstrates that your acquaintance with the "sorted" aspects of life is ongoing. May I suggest that one presentation of your bullshit is quite sufficient, perhaps you would delete the second and third repetitions thereof?

I am most humbly sorry, the term "Yank" is commonly used by a great many Americans to refer to themselves, just as Canadians often refer to themselves as "Canucks"; I would have thought that was obvious to even someone as obsessed with anal preoccupations as you apparently are.

As to the part of the planet that hunters in Canada come from, it certainly does matter to us. We do not believe in "continentalism" with respect to sovereignity issues or resource allocation in Canada; as you point out, they are OUR animals. Your opinion and that of your fellow newcomer and equally loudmouthed know-it-all whose previous drivel is as impressive as a wet fart, have nothing to do with Canadian resource allocation.

However, both of you condescending assholes demonstrate exactly the type of behaviour that all too many Americans do regarding other nation's resources; this simply proves my initial point.

I did not realize the hunting site turned to a political one over night.

I for one welcome all the americans up here with open arms. Sure their governemnt gives me the shaft (the Softwood Lumber Dispute cost me my job) but my own government gives it to me also. The average guy from the states is like you and me.

I went to Montana a few years ago to hunt antelope (self guided with the help of a Montana resident) and was welcomed by everybody I met. I met hunters in the feild that invited me back to share their camp, food, guns anything I wanted. It felt really good, even though I was given strange looks when I said I was from BC. Got the same question everytime, why are you down here when you can hunt anything up there? Everything but antelope was my responce.

To all the guys from the states, I would bet that most of the people you run into up here in the field will welcome you like somebody from your own town. Face it when it comes down to it, hunters are hunters, we are alike.

Back to the original post. If our government wants to give tags to guides to sell to the highest bidder or sell outfits to guys backed by US or European dollars thats our government fault. Dont blame anybody buying tags or outfitts. Our government does not allow outside hunters to hunt without a guide. Is this the outtfitters pushing for this or is it residents knowing that 99% of the outside hunters wont be able to afford it. I really dont care as long as it keeps others out. Some places let others hunt without a guide, like Montana. I took full advantage of this and I would be upset if residents from Montana got mad. Their gov, made the law and I followed it.

Same thing here, if a guy from outside BC wants to come drop 18,000 on a stone sheep so be it. If the money leaves the country so be it, we voted the people in that made the rules. Alien licences and tags have increased this past year in an effort to get more money from the rich hunters to actually stay in the province. This cost will only be passed on to the outside hunters. If they choose to pay it is up to them, I dont care if they come or they dont. If nobody comes the guides will lower their prices which does not hurt me either.

Alex

This is, to me and I think, to many Canadians, an increasingly important issue and one which needs to be addressed with some major changes in legislation in both national and provincial assemblies. There are those who feel, possibly due to friendship, business relationships or personal origin, that non-resident "alien" trophy hunting(the term used in the B.C. Hunting Regs.) is perfectly acceptable and that we should just take the money and keep quiet. Many other Canadians are increasingly concerned about the status of our natural resources and feel very strongly that we are allowing our country to be taken over and dominated by foreigners, I am in that number.

In B.C., as in the rest of Canada, game animals are relatively scarce in numbers and some populations are endangered or threatened by careless resource exploitation or over-hunting. I think that ALL resource issues should be inter-related in policy development and in the execution of that policy with respect to harvesting and sales. So, if the Americans decide to enact onerous duties on Canadian softwood, for example, we immediately cease all raw log exports to them and impose very high border taxes on electricity and natural gas exports.

In B.C., a resident must wait for three to five years between Sheep kills and much Sheep hunting is now on Limited Entry. I think that where this is the case, ALL non-resident hunting should be stopped and ALL Guide-Outfitter quotas should be cancelled. I would like to see ALL "non-resident alien" hunting cancelled in B.C. and all other parts of Canada. The current 10% quota for G/Os should be used as a basis for a lottery in which ALL Canadians can participate, B.C. residents included, this should apply to ALL other provinces and territories, as well.

Canadian hunters have a greater fundamental right to hunt in Canada than ANYONE else, period. This is not "discrimination" against anyone, it is simple national pride and protection of our birthright. We have been much too soft on resource, national and residence-ownership-immigration issues for far too long and it's time to change that. Although U.S. domestic affairs are none of my business, I think that they should implement a similar policy so that their people will have first crack at their resources.

I would favour a fair buyout of any contractual, fiduciary obligation on the part of the B.C. government concerning Guide-Outfitter quotas as I do not believe in anyone getting treated unjustly. The "packer" and Aboriginal issues are separate from this and should, I think, be discussed in a different thread.

Kutenay,you better tell all other Canucks to stay in their own provinces then,no going to Africa to exploit their rare resources over there or any other country for that matter.Don't come to Alberta looking for antelope they're ours,not B.C.'s,same as our huge white tails and our bighorns,they're not on an LED system,I can buy a ram tag over the counter.

Now I really don't believe any of the above mentioned,but you make it sound like you don't want to share,and are willing to put all those people out of work,more for our already burdened system.

In my 30+ years of hunting in Alberta and B.C. I cannot say that non res.alien hunters have ever taken anything from me.I've hunted stone sheep and caribou as a non res in B.C.,guided by my brother who is a resident there,at one time I was a B.C. res.There was no lack of sheep or caribou for me to hunt.I came home without any but it wasn't because some yank was there shooting them all and taking away from my experience.

kutenay,
I cant but respond to your thoughtful question:
To put it simple:I see no God given right for a "poor" person,living in the valley to have any better rights to hunt the precious game above in "his " mountains then a "rich bastard" form St Elsewhere.That is what you propose.
You advance hunting rights for "residents" as if they had done anything to deserve this right.
I do understand where the feeling is coming from though.The commodity is rare and in a free market society it goes to the highest bidder.SOme consider that unfair .So they vote socialism which is a friendly word for communism,abolishing fre markets and given rights to groups of different persuasion.
All man made rules,set uip to benefit the people that made the rules,NO inherent right.

The concept of "resident" hunting rights is as ridiculous.The resident has done nothing to support the agame,assuming wildlife management is supported by fees not local taxes.
You might as well and with as much right,propose to limit access to a resource to any group defined by you or others:like people born "here" 50 y ago,having family roots for 100+ years versus 3-10y,people living on this side of the divide or in this county.You can devise a million ways to fence out "others" -just dont proclaim its just.

Also be prepared that isolasionism might breed countermeasures.If these folks prevent me from hunting in "their" mountains,maybe I shouldnt buy their beef either,after all its been eating grass from those foreign mountains : ),probably shouldnt allow importing their lumber either,same logic.

What I am trying to say is that your proposal is logical in terms of increasing YOUR chances for success given your circumstances right now,not thinking about the repercussions either.
But it smells bad.S.O.

just my 2 c

Funny that kutenay writes a post bitching about nonresidents, wrote this post as well.

"Your best bet for a combo hunt including Goat, Stone Sheep, Elk, Moose, Black Bear and even Grizzlies are two Outfitters in north-eastern B.C., they have roughly adjacent territories and they are "Stone Mountain Safaris" and "Big Nine Outfitters". I have hunted in both of these areas and there is lots of game and their staff and camps are top notch. IF, you are in really GOOD mountain shape and can shoot, your chances to get several animals with either Dave Wien's (Stone) or Barry Thompkin's (Big 9) are excellent. They are not inexpensive, but, you will see a lot of game, if you will hunt hard.

If possible, try to drive up as the trip is worth it and you will find that this is almost as enjoyable as the hunt itself. Fort Nelson, now, has very nice hotels and the people are extremely friendly, you will really enjoy yourself, BUT, get in shape, really good shape!

Try www.goabc.org for info. and follow the directions on that website to the sites for the above outfitters. Also, there is a growing movement in B.C. to end all non-resident trophy hunting and I think that this will happen fairly soon. This is not a slag against Americans, or anyone, it is simply the way our society is changing, so, I would go as soon as you possibly can.....you will quite possibly get a Wolf as well."

What will it be tomorrow kutenay???

MG

Madgoat,

I've followed this post with some interest and along with your observation, it's funny that for someone who has hunted Northern BC only three times, by his own admission, would be so vehemently opposed to the "rich yanks" or "Somoans" unless he was completely inundated with aliens on those trips. I've hunted in Canada numerous times, my best friend in the world is a Canadian. I'm only rich through my contacts and experiences in this life and a good deal of the better experiences have included my time in Canada and the people in Canada. I've never been mistreated or had a Canadian be rude to me. How you act and interact with others usually has alot to do with how one is received and I think, that maybe, this could have something to do with the tune of this topic. As long as we "rich yanks" are allowed to visit your country, I will come whether or not I'm able to hunt..........that's the fault of the vast majority of you Canucks making me feel welcome. Thank you......................

Joe

Kutenay, I understand where you are comming from with your last post. You have written it so that I can see and understand your point of view. If I had a situation here at home in the U.S., that is like yours, I would probably feel the same way. I think its all about how you express your point. People tend to focus on the negatives and be blind to the true point. I felt as if your issue was a personal problem with "me". I do apologize for what I have written in my last few posts. But I didnt fell that the "YANKS" were the root of your hunting problem north of the border. It seamed to me that you were taking it out on american hunters and not your own government who choses who can hunt where. This of course is the root of the Canadian peoples choice. I hope the people of Canada can get this worked out for the best interest of the Canadians.

Kutenay

I spent the first 6 years of my life on my Grandfathers Ranch in the Western Chilcotin. It is that ranch that I now own 1/2 of. When I turned 18 and had to register for the draft in the US I was forced to make a decision on citizenship. Since I had been raised in the US that is what I chose and I have never been sorry for that decision.

I understand that now Dual citizenship is possible and I would have opted for that if given the opportunity. I am now working on that and, as you suggested, it is possible. I want to retire to a house I am building in the Quesnel Lake area.

I mentioned hunting on my own property as being illegal without an outfitter. That is a bit simple as my Cousin is the GO there and I can hunt wherever I please by using him. A privilege that he often reminds me of.

I think your desire to end 'alien ownership' of anything in Canada is about the worst idea I have heard. Again, if other countries follow suit and force Canadians to give up everything they own outside Canada where will that leave Canada? Canada is not nearly big enough to absorb the money coming back or to make up for the money that will never be available. I would bet money that Canadians own a greater amount of real property and businesses in the US than vice a versa.

Of course neither will ever happen.

Kutenay, your problem lies with the outfitters and with the province...not the nonresident hunters. They aren't the ones who make the laws there!!!
Here in Wyoming, nonresidents must hunt with a guide in the wilderness...one of the dumbest laws in the books only designed to make the outfitting industry money. These folks can hike, pack, fish, hunt birds, and do whatever else they want in the wilderness the rest of the year, but when the hunting seasons starts and they want to go after a deer, they have to hire a guide. What BS...many of these folks are more savy in the backcountry than the outfitters taking them!!
I can understand your point, but I'm sure there in BC, like Wyoming, the nonresidents that do come to hunt pump a lot of $$$ into the local economies and help keep many people in business. At least you can get a sheep tag fairly easy, I've been putting in my whole life and still have not drawn!!!

MG

Caribou

Sounds like a deal. We were just up over the US Thanksgiving I am planning on coming up for some snowmobileing. I'm also bringing a friend to show him what the mountains are really like.

We are building on the Horsefly, Mitchell Bay Road.

The amount of money that enters the local economy from foreign hunting is a drop in the ocean compared to the huge, negative impact on Canadian softwood and agricultural industries as a result of the refusal of the Americans to accept our products without punitive duties. I see no reason to submit to what the USA wants in terms of resource sales, harvesting and use, if they want to play "hardball" then we should do the same with ALL our resources.

Many of the current crop of Guide-Outfitters in B.C. are Americans who refuse to even take resident hunters into areas that are no vehicle entry, as a result of their lobbying efforts with our present B.C. government. So, effectively, their clients, almost exclusively wealthy trophy hunters from the USA get priority in shooting our Sheep. This is going to stop, no matter what it takes!

We in Canada need to develope a much wider basis for our trade and not depend on our relationship with the USA as they have demonstrated that our various trade agreements are to be broken whenever it suits their short term objectives. Fine, do without Canadian softwood, beef, pork and so forth, BUT, pay through the nose for hydro power, natural gas and ANY raw resources. Do not even think about hunting, fishing or using our wilderness parks because we don't want you here and that is that.

I have found that the vast majority of American hunters whom I have met in B.C. are quite well-off and very conservative in their political views, they seem to vote Republican. Well, they support the policies that have damaged our vital industries after urging NAFTA upon us, so, they can do without hunting, etc., here in Canada. Some "Canadians" might want to sell this country out for what is ever more clearly a false friendship; I am not one of them and the number of Canucks who feel as I do is growing......we will win and keep our wildlife for ourselves.

Its getting clearer to me at least where you are coming from kutenay
Believe it or not - I do understand your anger and maybe frustration.It is shared by many people across the globe,as most are supposed to compete with others and live with rules set up by "their" government but not for them.
Despite your questionable hate of "americans" ,I still feel Canadiens to be a close brother to me and to the USA ,even if currently the political wind is disagreeable.To solve that ,may I remind you that many US citizens dont agree with their government,but alas,just like you - have to live under its ruleset.
Your tone strikes me as being angry and not very understanding.You bunch issues together that at best have only peripheral connections.Your eye for an eye philosophy might be OK but seldom leads to a more pleasant life for either one.
<< Do not even think about hunting, fishing or using our wilderness parks because we don't want you here and that is that. >>
Fine, just say I instead of "we" and I can believe.
You are subscribing to a tribal bill of rights that gives preference to people starting at a point in time were it includes you,- you are not the only one.
You desire to live your little live unencumered by anyone,as you seem to think you dont need them,and maybe so.
Time has proven though that we are better off having free trade,whatever that is,allowing free exchange of goods and services.
But as you advertise now also a seperate Canada.do you really think the Canadien economy can survive without the US? With a 12 foot fence on the border?
May I suggest ther is a difference between your little world and the whole?
May I remind you that the basis for your "rights" are products of Canadien occupation of rather recent vintage?
Yes I currently live in California,used to be a glorious beutiful state and piece of ground.Things have changed since.But alas - I have to live with what is,the world is getting more crowded by the day and we all pay a huge price when our beloved outdoor activities get restricted.Becoming tribal and claiming rights "because I was here first" sounds dishonest and shows in my opinion only a lack of insight
But as I said,way ago- I understand- yes I wish "they" would stop coming.

PS contrary to your assertion,I alwys thought Canada was some colony or 52 state,guess I will have to wait a bit longer eh ?

I have made my point on this issue and will not become repetitive, however, I will answer "Blue", because, although he is a misguided "liberal" who quite obviously knows very little about History, he means well and is a nice guy.



First, your entire premise is both irrelevant to my position and is a historically mono-deterministic piece of propaganda of the sort one hears in first year "Pol-Sci" or "Cultural Antropology" courses.This is typical of the tweedy, weedy, sniveling academic or "human rights" lawyer who has never done an hour's real work in his/her/it's existance ....and never will!



You don't know anything about Canada, our History or Aboriginal rights here, which DO in fact, take precedence over the resource harvesting rights of other Canadians; just as my ancestors, among others, established in treaties made centuries ago....to which we Canucks still adhere. However, I DO NOT use the false, politically motivated term, "First Nations" as that is an insult to both my forbearers, the Aboriginal peoples and my country....fucking lawyer talk, pal, REAL Canucks don't use such bullshit terms!



As far as what my ancestors did, they came here as explorers, traders and then soldiers. They eventually fought against the French, defeated them and then treated them with courtesy, respect and accepted their language, religion and culture as an equal part of the nation we have built together. Next, we were invaded by Yankees in two wars that they started; we defeated these invasions and kept on building our peaceful, prosperous and internationally respected nation. Among those who invaded Canada were American aboriginals, the ferocious tribes of the "Iroquois Confederacy", see the fate of "Huronia";IF, you actually read HISTORY, rather than simple-minded, left-lib propaganda.



I do not see where History has shown that the type of behaviour you describe is as okay as you claim it is, but, I try to base my comments on actual reality, not, upon the fanciful imaginings of some self-absorbed, sophomoric twit who thinks that the only Turner of cultural importance was an English landscape painter; this describes the vast majority of the wrist-wringing faggots of the "Indian" industry, as most of my Indian friends have told me. For fuck sakes, the Indians were raping and pillaging since their forbearers came here, the British actually stopped that and very quickly with minimum violence, see N.W.M.P.



I cannot predict what will happen a century from now, but, I can try to improve my country and that is precisely what this entire thread has been in aid of. You might consider getting off your tendentious pulpit vis-a-vis Aboriginal peoples and try learning about actual Canadian history before you spout such drivel again. In any case, since you are a good guy, albeit rather naive, I will simply attribute your comments to the unfortunate circumstances in which you are, not owning that "40"!



BTW, if you get serious about that, let me know, you are someone whom I would be glad to see living here in B.C., even as a nasty old Y.....oops, I almost said the Y word! I could and would help you find a nice spot, but, the land prices here are godawful!!! Must be those "First Nations" land claims, eh???!!!



Sheephunter posted just as I did, so, I will also reply to his rather incoherent comments. First, I don't hate Americans as my posts on this forum have frequently proven; I have repeatedly posted "God Bless America", so, that is bullshit. I also have not and do not advocate an end to Can.-Am. trade or a fence along the border, as any rational reader of my posts can clearly see; it is the USA that has acted against free trade, not we Canucks, I just think we should emulate their treatment of us with respect to those of our raw resources that they do want.



As to the age of my rights, my ethnic ancestors came to what is now Canada before the First Millenium, they were Vikings. My actual direct family forbearers, their Norwegian, Scottish, English and German descendants came here, starting about 1650, so, I think my rights are quite well established. Where being a single person who holds the position that I do with respect to Canadian nationalism, etc.,is concerned, you are so wrong that it is funny. We can and have and will survive without your type of "big brother" attitude, which is the source of the problem.....52nd state???, what's your 51st, maybe Mexico? What a crock!!!



BTW, Sheep', are you aware that we B.C. "colonists" recently gave some of our wild California Bighorns to the USA....from a herd at the junction of the Chilcoten and the Fraser Rivers, which residents can only hunt by lottery style draws with low prospects for success. Also, we have donated many Bald Eagles to re-stocking programns in your country as you seem to have decimated indigenous populations of your national bird....don't talk to me about Canada not being able to do ANYTHING, we are the most successful, democratic nation on Earth.



I have now said everything on this topic that I think worth saying and I have benefited in terms of developing my own thoughts from every post hereon; I thank all of those who have taken time to respond, including those with whom I have exchanged a few snarky remarks. I get a lot out of this forum, both in enjoyment and in learning.