https://www.coastmountainnews....hot-in-northern-b-c/



Judge rejects hunter’s bid to get back a sheep shot in northern B.C.


Despite expert testimony, judgement says ram probably underage

NICK MURRAY Apr. 24, 2019 11:10 a.m.NEWS





Despite providing an expert witness, a B.C. hunter lost an appeal to have the ram he shot returned to him after it was confiscated during an inspection.

The debate was all about age of the ram. Mackenzie Crawford shot a thinhorn mountain sheep, believing it to be full-curl, or a ram over eight years of age, as required by law. However, during a compulsory inspection the ram was deemed to be around seven years of age and was confiscated.


Crawford was hunting for the sheep, also know as a Stone’s sheep, in 2016, near Crehan Creek in Omineca-Peace, northern B.C.

In court, Crawford was supported by Dr. Valerius Geist, an expert with over 60 years of experience, who was convinced the sheep was over 9 years old.

The disagreement stems from how Stone’s sheep ages are estimated.

Hunting regulations formed to meet the requirements of the Wildlife Act 1996, look for “true horn annuli,” which in layman’s terms means a full set of curled horns. Much like the rings of a tree, a series of gnarled horn sections can demonstrate how many years the ram has been alive. The question is: does each sheep produce a full section every year or do environmental factors slow or speed the growth of the sections?

Geist holds a PhD in Zoology, and has decades of experience studying populations of thinhorn sheep, which produced four books. Now retired, he formerly taught at the University of Calgary for 27 years and mentored BC Fish and Wildlife employees in correctly aging sheep.


In court, Geist said there are significant differences between populations of high mountain sheep and lower level groups, due to food abundance and other factors, such as fertilizer pollution. Additionally, he opined that in this specific case the ram had lost 6 to 7 inches of early horn growth due to “brooming,” or parts of the horn snapping off due to wear and tear.

Geist said the ram was from a northern population known for low body and horn growth and, like a person’s shoe size, using statistical averages was irrelevant in judging the age of sheep. He gave data examples showing rams with 13 inches of difference in their horn growth.

William Jex, a Regional Wildlife Biologist with the Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations & Rural Development was called as the Crown’s witness. Holding a diploma, he is a Registered Professional Biologist, with many years experience and is the province’s lead on thinhorn sheep and manages inspectors.

The court observed of Jex, “He said that in his professional view the Crawford ram had seven annuli [horn sections] and that was the extent of it. He was firm in his opinion that the Crawford ram was under eight years when it was taken.”


Jex cited his department’s use of more modern studies, tooth age analysis and X-rays, although the judge noted he had no formal training in interpreting X-rays. He did provide extensive data sets and graphs from his department’s records and reported the plaintiff had not submitted an incisor tooth for analysis, failing to add to the required burden of proof.

The final judgement said it was “not a straight-forward exercise” due to the experts’ profound disagreements but ruled against Crawford, stating the failure to submit the incisor tooth had added to the judge’s view he had not established “on a balance of probabilities” the ram was eight years old.

Dr Geist probably has more experience with sheep than anyone else. I'd say the judge got it wrong.

Is Geist basing his age on annuli that is present or including what is missing when saying it was broomed.

quote:

Originally posted by cowmanbob:
Dr Geist probably has more experience with sheep than anyone else. I'd say the judge got it wrong.

True.

But the government does not like it to be told they are wrong!

I understand full curl. But how does a hunter determine age? Seriously, I know you don't check their ID card.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I understand full curl. But how does a hunter determine age? Seriously, I know you don't check their ID card.

Judging legal sheep is a mine field, here it's purely defined by horn length. The ram may obviously be tottering on immortality, but if his horns are worn back past the minimum 4/5, he's gonna die another way. The 4/ 5 is defined optically and the boundary gets pushed all too often by poor judgement or a mistake. I know a guy who had a ram approved by a rookie Fish and Wild officer, that later turned out to be illegal. He got to keep it.

Grizz

What is 4/5?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
What is 4/5?

4/5 of a circle, basically defined by drawing an imaginary line from the base of the horn through the front of the eye. Sounds easy if you say it real quick, but they measure it with a carpenter's framing square held on the tip of the opposite horn. Not what you get to see in the field.

Grizz

Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

quote:

But the government does not like it to be told they are wrong!

Isn't that the ultimate truth!

The hunter manages to get arguably the No 1 authority in the world to testify for him, and still loses.

The arrogance of power...

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

On the other hand, if all sheep tags are limited, why then limit them to strict age?
And why not having rule hats a bit flexible for the reason of sanity with wildlife rules?

This is what happens when hunting trophies is the reason for hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
This is what happens when hunting trophies is the reason for hunting.

The 8 year old rule has zero to do with trophy and everything to do with conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
This is what happens when hunting trophies is the reason for hunting.

The 8 year old rule has zero to do with trophy and everything to do with conservation.

Doesn't conservation have more to do with the number of permits issued then the age of the animal killed.

A 5 year old ram can breed as many ewes as a 8 year old ram can.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
This is what happens when hunting trophies is the reason for hunting.

The 8 year old rule has zero to do with trophy and everything to do with conservation.

Doesn't conservation have more to do with the number of permits issued then the age of the animal killed.

A 5 year old ram can breed as many ewes as a 8 year old ram can.

By using the age rule they can limit harvest but still allow maximum hunter participation. Basically the age rule allows them to have a general season and still stay within harvest goals and minimal impact on population. As you said, younger rams can breed just fine. The number of permits issued aren't limited, the age controls the harvest.

.

In BC, most Rocky Mountain sheep hunting is done under general license. No special permit. Pretty hard to find big rams outside of protected areas but it is fun to try. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

Seems stupid to have a criteria system, where arguments over fractions of an inch end up in court. There has to be a better way.

Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams1:
Seems stupid to have a criteria system, where arguments over fractions of an inch end up in court. There has to be a better way.


Grizz

There is simply don't shoot sheep that don't meet the criteria, the only reason it went to court is because the hunter took it to court to try and get it back.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams1:
Seems stupid to have a criteria system, where arguments over fractions of an inch end up in court. There has to be a better way.


Grizz

There is simply don't shoot sheep that don't meet the criteria, the only reason it went to court is because the hunter took it to court to try and get it back.

Easy to say, but judgments are made under field conditions and it's not a straight forward process under our system. The highly competitive environment of sheep hunting, here at least, encourages hunters to push the envelope. Sometimes, by going to court, you can beat the system. Seems a bit Machiavellian.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

The ram is 8...it's legal. I'll resist the temptation to trade personal attacks but carry on if you think it changes the facts in your favour.

Passed a ram up once, because I considered it obviously non legal, acquaintance shot it a week later. Rookie fish cop passed it and it was at the taxidermists before some one reported it. Too bad , so sad for the law. Guy got to keep his sheep.

Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

The ram is 8...it's legal. I'll resist the temptation to trade personal attacks but carry on if you think it changes the facts in your favour.

Not according to the regs, but people will keep testing or abusing them.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

The ram is 8...it's legal. I'll resist the temptation to trade personal attacks but carry on if you think it changes the facts in your favour.

Not according to the regs, but people will keep testing or abusing them.

Sage I'm willing to learn on this one but where in the regs does it say an 8-year old ram isn't legal?

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

The ram is 8...it's legal. I'll resist the temptation to trade personal attacks but carry on if you think it changes the facts in your favour.

Not according to the regs, but people will keep testing or abusing them.

Sage I'm willing to learn on this one but where in the regs does it say an 8-year old ram isn't legal?

it doesn't says must have attained the age of 8 by true horn annuli, read the court report it explains it all.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

The ram is 8...it's legal. I'll resist the temptation to trade personal attacks but carry on if you think it changes the facts in your favour.

Not according to the regs, but people will keep testing or abusing them.

Sage I'm willing to learn on this one but where in the regs does it say an 8-year old ram isn't legal?

it doesn't says must have attained the age of 8 by true horn annuli, read the court report it explains it all.

I've read it and the ram is 8 by annuli.....

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

The ram is 8...it's legal. I'll resist the temptation to trade personal attacks but carry on if you think it changes the facts in your favour.

Not according to the regs, but people will keep testing or abusing them.

Sage I'm willing to learn on this one but where in the regs does it say an 8-year old ram isn't legal?

it doesn't says must have attained the age of 8 by true horn annuli, read the court report it explains it all.

I've read it and the ram is 8 by annuli.....

Yawn,, not according to the RWB if it was deemed legal it would be in the hunters hands or on his wall. You shoot what you want if Im going to take one by age I will make sure there is 8 visual annuli.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Sadly for the young man the ram was unquestionably 8 but I'm not sure he could have counted the 8th ring in the field as the ring was under hair. In my mind he kind of got lucky the ring was there but got very unlucky that it wasn't properly aged by authorities.

How was it not properly aged by the authorities, they explain it fairly well in the court documents on why it was deemed not legal.

Aging is a bit subjective for sure but when you have experts like Geist and most of the outfitters and serious sheep hunters in the province saying the crown screwed up I'd tend to agree. In fact I do agree...that ram is 8.

It may be 8 but as the regulations read it doesn't, so doesn't really matter what Geist, outfitters etc say. That was all explained in the case.

So the courts always get it right? I'd say this is one case where they didn't!

no courts are always not right but according to the regs that all are to follow it didn't meet the requirements so was not legal.
Is there inspectors out there that would have passed this ram, yes im sure there is and that is the problem, someone passes a ram that is not legal
others see it and shoot one the same but its not passed or others think things should be passed because. There has also been cases were rams passed by age
by certain inspectors have later been takin away. I can sort of see why you think this should be legal when you see some of the outfitters you have hunted
with that have had wildlife charges against them and in some cases you defend them.
Its not always about having to kill some thing all this has really done is taking the opportunity away from some one else for this year.

The ram is 8...it's legal. I'll resist the temptation to trade personal attacks but carry on if you think it changes the facts in your favour.

Not according to the regs, but people will keep testing or abusing them.

Sage I'm willing to learn on this one but where in the regs does it say an 8-year old ram isn't legal?

it doesn't says must have attained the age of 8 by true horn annuli, read the court report it explains it all.

I've read it and the ram is 8 by annuli.....

Yawn,, not according to the RWB if it was deemed legal it would be in the hunters hands or on his wall. You shoot what you want if Im going to take one by age I will make sure there is 8 visual annuli.

I already said I wouldn't have shot it and the young lad got lucky there was a ring under the hair. He didn't get lucky with the ring counting.

If he was lucky it would have had 8 visual annuli then he could have kept the sheep but according to RWB it didn't.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:
If he was lucky it would have had 8 visual annuli then he could have kept the sheep but according to RWB it didn't.

And according to many many experts including Geist it did....I agree

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:
If he was lucky it would have had 8 visual annuli then he could have kept the sheep but according to RWB it didn't.

And according to many many experts including Geist it did....I agree

And as shown by the courts what you and your many many experts think does not change the laws/ regs, and as said earlier that is part of the problem previous illegal rams being passed and people seeing them so think its ok to shoot similar rams or people trying to get passed what they think should be considered a legal ram.
Make sure there is 8 VISABLE annuli before shooting on age. If this keeps happening the only thing it may do is take the chance for a legal ram by age away as they did to some of the areas in B.C. for big horn sheep.

They aren't my experts and the law does dot need to change for this ram to be legal.

If it was legal he would have it.
Again make sure there is 8 visable true horn annuli before shooting a ram based on age.
This rule all ready has been taken away on one species of sheep in B.C. hope it doesn't happen on another.

quote:

Originally posted by sage:
If it was legal he would have it.
Again make sure there is 8 visable true horn annuli before shooting a ram based on age.
This rule all ready has been taken away on one species of sheep in B.C. hope it doesn't happen on another.

Unless the courts got it wrong which I believe they did....your total trust of the legal system is admirable! I'm out!

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:

quote:

Originally posted by sage:
If it was legal he would have it.
Again make sure there is 8 visable true horn annuli before shooting a ram based on age.
This rule all ready has been taken away on one species of sheep in B.C. hope it doesn't happen on another.

Unless the courts got it wrong which I believe they did....your total trust of the legal system is admirable! I'm out!

I don't have total trust for the court system, have all ready said that, and also as said IMO
your track record of outfitters etc that you have hunted with and support speaks enough and that is not an attack.