What we need to do is quit hunting them and start moving them and trapping wolves, mt lions, and coyotes. Then of course killing those said preditors.

If we took 5 years of from hunting bighhorns, and just moved them around, we could have a serious increase in our populations.

We do have to do some serious preditor hunting to make this work. And find new ranges not near domestic sheep.

I quoted Jack O'Connor for one thing, that he knew someone who had sheep that were bred by wild sheep. I did not quote him for anything else. Another poster, D99, has proven that quote to be correct. If others who actually knew Jack have opinons of him that are less than stellar, then I would give credit to those who actually had first hand knowledge of what those things were if the information came directly from them. I have in fact spoken to one person who knew Jack quite well, and have formed some of my own opinions based on that conversation.

I have not seen a B.C. sheep. The only ones I have ever seen in Canada were, as I mentioned, in Alberta, and those would be the ones I would like to see transplanted, along with some from the Yukon and N.W.T.

Thank you to Matt B. for some wonderful information. I especially like this quote "I think the more conservative and realistic approach to this issue is to keep healthy populations in habitats that they currently occupy or that they are ecologically capable of occupying within the context of social choice."

that is simply what I asked about. What areas are ecologically capable within the U.S.?

I very carefully pointed out some of the attitudes concerning O'Connor held by a number of B.C./Alberta professional, working bushmen. I actually knew these people very well, over a considerable number of years and I made reference to the most famous of them all to try to point out that O'C. was not considered an "expert" by those who actually were/are.

I haved lived among Alberta Bighorns for months on end and actually did field sampling for some Alberta biologists working on habitat studies; this was as an employee of the Alberta Forest Service at Hinton, AB. in 1990-'91. I base my opinions on both post-secondary education in biology and extensive field experience over almost five decades.

I have gone into exhaustive detail, very courteously, to assist in the replies to your initial question and your implications are not lost on me. Obviously, I have wasted my time and shall not pursue this further; the exception being that I might point out that Sheep transfers from the N.W.T. and the Yukon are under the aegis of the Federal Government and the aboriginal peoples in those areas would almost certainly block such a project. Both my wife and I have worked and lived up there and I might just know what the situation is.

The only area of Canada, where a real possibility of obtaining breeding stock for transplants exists is B.C. and we have the only California Bighorns in Canada. We have already provided stock from a herd that we residents cannot hunt without a difficult-to-obtain draw and most, not all of us, supported giving up our opportunities to assist with Sheep propagation in the U.S.A. Given the current social-political attitudes here, I kinda doubt that this generosity will continue, but, since conservation is my main interest in life, I would be in favour of it.

Kutenay

I hear what you are saying. One of the things that you are saying is that you don't want people coming into B.C. and hunting your sheep. And I agree with that.

That is why the U.S. needs to do more to increase the range of wild sheep here so that U.S. Citizens that want an oppotunity to hunt sheep can do so here, and of course in Alaska.

I have said that I am opposed to foreign ownership, domination and control of Canadian resources, especially wildlife and hunting. I want to stop foreigners having any control/influence in access to B.C. wildlife and lands; this is currently a serious problem in the best hunting areas of B.C. This, BTW, means ALL foreigners, not just Americans.

To do this and to deal with the current very complex and "hunting unfriendly" land/resource allocation situation here, while preserving resident hunting, I consider a ban on any foreign hunting to be necessary. I also want to see the B.C. government buy out any foreign ownership of Guide/Outfitter concessions and restrict these to B.C. residents only WITHOUT allowing dime-one of foreign investment.

B.C. is not the hunter's cornucopia that it was 50 years ago and the demands for wildlife greatly exceed the supply. It is not possible to hoard or "deepfreeze" ungulate populations as suggested by D99 and predator extirpation here is both practically impossible and socially unacceptable. In short, there is no longer a surplus of game here relative to domestic demand and I think that we come first in our homeland. It's not about anti-Americanism, as I have repeatedly said and something like this is going to happen due to the changes in B.C. society over the period since Vietnam.

I doubt that transfers of Alaskan or other northern Sheep would be viable; I think that Cali.BH stock is much more likely to succeed in the contemporary American west. I think that to initiate this, you have about 7 years left and then the N.D.P./Green alliance will take over and "goodbye ALL trophy hunting". I would get on with it and get the transplants going while the opportunity remains as public opinion here is changing as well.

BTW, Val Geist now lives in Sidney, B.C., he is a nice guy and very easy to talk to, you might phone him and ask his opinion first hand.

Well, I just sent in the CC # (credit card) and Joined FNAWS. Maybe I can get to the convention in REno and talk to some folks.

The US owes a great debt to BC and Alberta for all the sheep that they have given the US in past years. Where most states require a trade of one species for another. Canada gave Idaho, Nevada, Washington and Oregon large nunbers of California Bighorns in thr 60s, 70s, and 80s and they asked nothing in return. The reason we have large numbers of CBHS is because of these transplants. Having managed and studied sheep for over 30 years in Idaho I have a few opinions based on this experience. It appears that all Rocky Mountain Bighorns experience population fluctuations. Unfortunately, how and why these fluctuations occur is not very well understood. For now all we can say is that it happens.

465H&H

In Alberta there is a very isolated band of Bighorns on "Ram Mountain" southwest of Rocky Mountain House. There is a sheep trap and handling facilities on the mountain and the sheep have been studied for many many years. It is a hunted population with fairly easy (is sheep hunting ever easy) access. So the rams are harvested as soon as they are legal (4/5 curl). The theory that mature old rams are important to breeding in a normal herd prompted a recommendation that the ram hunt be stopped on Ram mtn. However the local hunters objected (They figured that if they lost the opportunity they would never get it back) As an alternative a number of Big Rams were captured at Cardinal River Coal mines and transported to Ram mountain. This was to 1. provide an instant boost to breeding and 2. introduce some genetic variation to such an isolated herd. Time and scientific study will tell what effects this will have.

Robin down under

Duffy4

That is extremely interesting. I hope I live long enough to hear that it worked, and that conservation departments might take the knowledge gained and use it to increase sheep populations to what they once were before this horrible human population explosion.

Hello;
The sheep on Ram Mountain have their own web site,[search ram mountain sheep] according to which they have declined from around 200 to about 30 over the years . These rams are easily accesible and have to be full curl, which the web site claims not many make. In fact the entire WMU is a full curl zone. I was up there on opening day and saw 9 rams, none of which even made 4/5. Somebody else was glassing them from the opposite side of the basin.
The theory of not harvesting the oldest rams rests on the assumption that they teach the younger rams were all the likely ranges are. According to Geist, sheep ranges are largely traditional and some obvious habitat may be devoid of sheep for no obvious reason.
Grizz

The word is that the Stone's Sheep, one of the rarer and avidly sought "trophy" animals here in B.C. are not doing well. This is in the area where the G/Os of B.C. are lobbying hard to have further extreme restrictions placed on RESIDENT HUNTERS in order to provide monster trophy rams for their wealthy foreign clients. I think that it is obvious why an increasing number of B.C. RESIDENT hunters think that it is time to stop ALL "non-resident alien" hunting for Sheep,etc. as WE must come first in our land and other Canucks should come next.

I appreciate the gratitude shown by 465H&H concerning our gifts of Sheep stock to various American jurisdictions. I am and have always been very strongly in favour of this activity, even when the stock comes from Sheep herds that are under L.E.H. and doing this somewhat diminishes MY opportunities to hunt them. These gifts benefit everyone in BOTH Canada and the U.S.A. and I think that we should continue and expand this in order to re-build historic populations and maximize hunting opportunity for the average guy, continent wide. I wish that we could convince governments to spend the kind of bux on research and management that are really needed, but, I am not too hopeful.....

There is some good data on the Sheep issue on the B.C. Gov't. website which I do not have the facilities to reproduce here; however, I willtry to find the url for those interested. This is going to be a long, difficult battle to preserve both viable Sheep populations AND hunting for them and longterm cooperation and understanding among those concerned is fundamental to success, IMO.

Kutenay

I agree with you. Canadian citizens should certainly have a much better opportunity to hunt animals in their own province and their own country. By the same token, Canadian outfitters should have the right to run a business that caters to hunters that want to hire that business, and I suppose that most of the folks they get are not from Canada.

The real answer is MORE SHEEP.

That is part of the whole problem here, many of the G/Os here in B.C. are NOT B.C. people, they are Germans, Americans and so forth. They then deliberately attempt to restrict OUR access to OUR own game and wilderness areas and that is why the current imbroglio is developing. I might add that it is the prerogative of B.C. people to decide who does and who does not have "rights" here, it is NOT up to foreigners to presume to instruct us on this issue.

A "backdoor" approach to determining who can hunt OUR game is not only highly offensive to we B.C. people; it is doomed to failure by virtue of antagonizing public opinion. Simply put, those foreigners who behave in an arrogant fashion concerning their supposed "right" to hunt here simply because they can afford to pay a G/O are actually exacerbating the problem. We B.C.'ers OWN these Sheep and WE determine what is/is not appropriate where hunting them is concerned.

I understand it that your local Canook native indians are hell on sheep as well. What wildlife regulations if any do they have to abide by?

In the states most western states have very strict rules on what native indians can hunt outside the normal reservations and when. In Washington they can do whatever they want whenever they want.

In Alaska it's pretty much the same.

Alaska and Washington are very much alone on this stand point. Most other western states they have the same non-reseravation hunting rules as everyone else.

I shouldn't have more rights than a resident, and all residents (including indians) should have the same rights. Right's should be based on residency not race.

I would rather see non-resident, conservation-oriented trophy hunters continue with things the way they are than have to watch what the Aborigines are allowed to do to our game here in B.C. and Alberta. This is a situation that just infuriates every hunter/wildlife manager that I know, yet, if you dare to criticize the injustice, you are a "racist" and a "bigot"; we are in about the same situation here as WA and AK...jezuz, I don't even wanna think about what I have witnessed, it makes me just berserk!

I agree, "residency" is the only really just fashion of allocating resources and we are no longer in a frontier full of game here in B.C. IF, we can get the situation back under the control of B.C. residents and eliminate the excessive influence and overly large harvest of the G/Os, I would drop my concerns about non-residents and I think most B.C. hunters would, as well. It's not going to be easy and we residents need to come together in a common front and speak with a united voice to offset the propaganda of the GOABC, FNAWS, RMEF and so forth.

I will very bluntly say that IF, it were up to me, I would simply dedicate a portion of B.C.'s wildlife to a draw system and allow foreign hunters to attempt to draw permits. Then, if a guy from WA or AK drew a Stone's permit, and this would cost a buck or two, he would be able to hunt said Sheep with or without a G/O. I think that we could do much better for the B.C. taxpayers this way and also for the average non-resident hunter who wants to hunt Sheep and cannot afford the inflated prices of these hunts....in short, I believe in conservation and sports hunting, not, in ego-pimping by rich trophy collectors.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
That is part of the whole problem here, many of the G/Os here in B.C. are NOT B.C. people, they are Germans, Americans and so forth. They then deliberately attempt to restrict OUR access to OUR own game and wilderness areas and that is why the current imbroglio is developing. I might add that it is the prerogative of B.C. people to decide who does and who does not have "rights" here, it is NOT up to foreigners to presume to instruct us on this issue.

A "backdoor" approach to determining who can hunt OUR game is not only highly offensive to we B.C. people; it is doomed to failure by virtue of antagonizing public opinion. Simply put, those foreigners who behave in an arrogant fashion concerning their supposed "right" to hunt here simply because they can afford to pay a G/O are actually exacerbating the problem. We B.C.'ers OWN these Sheep and WE determine what is/is not appropriate where hunting them is concerned.

You keep saying this over and over again, sounding like a broken record. I don't think too many ethical hunters would disagree with you. But when you say we BCers do you mean you and those who agree with you, or do you mean everyone who lives in BC, including BC G/O who may not agree with you becasue to do so may hurt their businesses. So, my question is this. If the majority of BC people want to keep it opened up the way it is now, are you against that? What about your fellow BCers that also own the sheep but don't agree with you.

Again, I don't disagree with you, but politics being what they are, as I said before and will say again, the only real answer is MORE SHEEP everywhere that they can possibly survive and prosper so as to distribute the pressure on them as one of the worlds great natural resources.

Fortunately we will never see it, but as the world becomes more and more populated, and natural resources get fewer and fewer, and as the soils wear out and the oil runs out and trees run out, borders will change, wars will be fought, countries will cease to exist, and sadly, someday there may not be any sheep anywhere to be found.

To answer your question, IF, the majority of B.C.'ers want to continue the Sheep hunting situation as it is, then I would be bound to respect their wishes as expressed in politicial representation. However, I would be free to lobby in order to change that opinion as a number of us have successfully done concerning large-scale wilderness preservation....and I would do so.

As to the B.C. G/Os, they are much of the problem and I have zero sympathy for their position; I know a number of these characters personally and they are all about selling B.C's birthright for their own enrichment, fukem, period. Those that are fronts for foreigners who now control far too much B.C. hunting are scum, plain and simple.

You continually comment in a fashion which implies that B.C. wildlife is a ...world resource.... B.C. Sheep, etc., are NOT a ...world resource..., they are soley a B.C./Canadian resource, get it?

But, this is all rather immaterial to the situation now developing here in B.C. The fact is that, if a plebicite were held in B.C. today among ALL those living here, the results would be easily 70% AGAINST foreign trophy hunting.

We want to preserve what we have from the scenario that you outline in your final paragraph. Hard-line nationalists who are also hard-core conservationists, like me, are working on doing just that; major changes in hunting access is simply one of the approaches to this objective.

Kutenay

I bet you have filled up your truck with gas that came from the middle east. Get it. I bet you have guns that were made in the U.S.A. and Europe. Get it. I bet you have used technology that came from the U.S. Get it.

No, I guess you don't get that in this world the majority of people, including the majority of your fellow countrymen, have bought into a world economy. Get it. You and your mouth aren't going to stop the $20,000 sheep hunts in Bc. You aren't going to stop anything. too much money involved.

The issue is not just a B.C. issue. Its a conservation issue. And again, the only answer is more animals, be they elk, sheeep, goats, or whatever. In the end, money is going to win out every single time.

I have done my utmost to discuss this in a courteous fashion, however, you are both ignorant of anything to do with wildlife management and Canadian attitudes concerning our country and our resources. We use Canadian gas and oil, etc, and we have LOTS of it as well as everything else............

BTW, your attitude is EXACTLY what pisses Canadians off and demonstrating it here simply advances my cause as many Canadians read this forum. Sheep hunts go for close to $30,000 USD, the quotas have been sharply curtailed recently and, yeah, guys like me will end it very soon as there is no valid reason to allow your kind to hunt here, as your rudeness demonstrates.

Well, rudeness is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't wish to be rude. But I can say this. In the past few weeks I have received mailings, catologs, and brochures from many differenet outfits advertizing a considerable number of sheep hunts in B.C. and other Canadian Provinces. And I have a number of magazines that advertize even more sheep hunts in B.C. as well as the rest of Canada.
Many for under $20,000, some for over. The price doesn't really matter. It sure does seem like there is no shortage of opportunity for anyone who has money to hunt in Canada. Seems like every year there are more and more ads and more and more opportunity.

So whatever you are doing to curtail that hasn't worked so far.

However, I do wish you luck in your quest to preserve sheep populations in Canada.

There is no organized opposition, as yet, to the practice of foreign trophy hunting here in B.C.; I have yet to do anything, so, your observations re: results are not based on anything that I have done.

The Stone's Sheep in northeastern B.C. have declined in numbers from about 8000 to 5000 in recent years and further restrictions on resident hunting are being considered. I expect that organized opposition to the GOABC grab for more Sheep to sell will coalesce at the forthcoming annual meeting of the British Columbia Wildlife Federation in several weeks and I shall attend to see what is possible.

Wildlife in B.C. is not viewed as a "commodity" by the vast majority of people in the way that oil or hydropower has been; even our "old-growth" timber is now increasingly seen as something far too valuable to be subjected to the common marketplace. So, the argument that $$$$ will determine B.C.'s game allocations is not valid and the GOABC is, I think, quite aware of this.

More Sheep, Elk, etc., is a noble goal, BUT, not really achievable within the context of an unmodified wilderness ecosystem. Predator extirpation is absolutely a non-starter here and so the various limiting factors involved with population levels, ram size and lamb recruitment/survival have to be "managed" in order to both bring the Sheep back to historic population levels and protect resident hunting rights.

The one of these most easily adjusted is non-resident access and, given the lack of acceptance of this among B.C. residents at present, this is the obvious way to go. The impact of reductions/closure on "owners" from Texas or Tennessee really does not concern me.

This is one "resource" access situation where the big, foreign $$$$ does not and will not have the impact that some seem to think it will; my opinions are based on over 40 years of "hands-on" experience in this situation, not, on glossy magazine adverts and articles by foreign journalists. All I can say, is wait and see.

I shall do just that.

I would like to see some disease free dall sheep and barren land grizzly put in the Torngats in Labrador and perhaps on Baffin Island. That would expand their range and is alot less silly than this diea about putting lions and elephants on the Great Plains.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline