I am just curious if that Tar Sands Project is going to harm any hunting up there in Alberta.

I have worked in the area for over 25years.The hunting here has never been great and right now it is fair if you fly in to remote areas and very poor in any area that you can reach with an atv.The only exception is for black bear which are still quite common.In short,there isn't any good hunting here to harm.The serious hunters travel south or west to much better areas to hunt.

where is it located in relation to Banff and Jasper Provincial Parks.

About 500 miles northeast of banff and about 400 miles northeast of jasper.Right in the middle of swamp,muskeg and some sparse forest.

Stubblejumper, that is terrible to hear even though I already suspected it.

At this rate, we won't have any wilderness left in a decade... Some cynics may say we already don't have any wildernes left, just a landscape overlaid with millions of gridlines that represent everything from major highways to oil and gas pipelines to power lines and landing strips...

quote:

Originally posted by stubblejumper:
The hunting here has never been great and right now it is fair if you fly in to remote areas and very poor in any area that you can reach with an atv.

Just when I was thinking about flying north...

You say the hunting has never been great. How come? Sounds like whopper moose country.

Why is remote fly-in hunting only fair? Is it the increased pressure by all the folks coming up to work and live and hunt, or is it just a poor area (e.g. nutrition-wise) that doesn't support an abundance of game?

I'm not questioning your judgement, just curious about the reasons.

Frans

quote:

I'm not questioning your judgement, just curious about the reasons.

Maybe its his "patch".

The hunting is pretty bad around SE BC too.

Jes kiddin around of course...I have no idea if the huntings any good north of Ft McMurray. I don't understand why it would only be fair, when comparable terrain in NE BC is great hunting, but hey, I've never been there.

If it is just hunting pressure that has caused it to be fair, that wouldn't be a good baseline to justify turning the area inside out.

I do like my fuel guzzling 4x4 though, and would rather Canada be self sufficient for fuel as possible.

Dilemmas, eh?

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I do like my fuel guzzling 4x4 though, and would rather Canada be self sufficient for fuel as possible.

Two important statements in one sentence! You must be having a good day!

The technology exists to make good 4x4 vehicles that are very fuel efficient. I've always been amazed that Toyota sells the Hi-Lux pick-up (much like Tacoma) with a very efficient diesel engine in Europe, and that the darn thing is not available here! Obviously fuel prices vs sales price of the vehicle has something to do with it, but the technology is proven.

Self-sufficiency would start with not selling gas/oil to certain third parties. It's not (only) our domestic consumption that spikes the activities in the oil sands. This would have farreaching economical and political consequences though.

And of course conservation. You can reduce demand without a whole lot of trouble/investment and get good pay backs too. If you use less supplies last longer. Investing a few hundred million in promoting efficiency would be a much better use of money than giving every Albertan a $100 check. What's a $100 going to do, heck, I paid $79.80 for a single tank of diesel, just the other day.

Sorry for the off-topic reply, but Canuck made me do it!
Frans

Hello;
I hunted black bear just south of the Bitumount fire look out about 10 years ago, in an area that had been partially developed as a tar sands project, but apparently fell victim to the N.E.P. It was criss crossed with drainage canals and ponds. Lots of bears, but I assume from what I read that that area involves Shell's Muskeg river project and is no longer accessible for hunting.
One of the guys up there told me of a new lady fire lookout who was sent to the Johnson Lake look out. I guess the poor woman got up on her first day on the Job, scanned around with her scope and freaked. There were bears everywhere. They apparently had to replace her.
Interesting to see how Ralph's new proposed road to Saskatchewan will affect things.
Grizz

Rating hunting areas is relative.Moose densities in the Fort Mcmurray area are around 1 per 4 square miles according to surveys.In the peace country the densities run as high as 2 per square mile.Secondly hunting pressure is very high.Thirdly we have had a serious problem with poaching as was made evident in the Alberta Game Warden magazine when they busted a group of native poachers dealing in the sale of game meat.One particular individual that was caught had claimed to kill over 50 moose in a single year.I have lived in Fort Mcmurray for over 25 years and I have seen probably 25 moose in that entire time period.I drive 8 hours each year to hunt moose and elk and I see more game in a day than hunters see near Fort McMurray in several years.

I spent four months on Doucette Tower for the Alberta Forest Service in 1993 and witnessed the slaughter of game animals, especially Moose, by the local "natural conservationists"; this was just sickening. One particular Indian boasted to me how his relatives had gone all the way to Westlock in the middle of summer and killed a bunch of the Elk there that had been planted by local sportsmen.......their ""rights" you know.

The same thing is happening in B.C. where the traitors in government are giving special hunting and fishing rights to Aboriginals at the expense of everyone else; this is the result of commie Trudeau's "Just Society", I guess. I am adamantly opposed to ANY special rights for Injuns, Metis or anyone else and think that it time we hunters got REALLY radical about OUR rights!

If, we do not get tough now, our hunting will be gone within a decade and this is NOT an exaggeration.

Hello;
It's not just the natives either. They busted one Newfie in Mac Murray, who had 8 moose hanging in his garage.
Grizz

We've always had good luck not too far from mcmurray. It does sicken me though when flying over any area in Alberta to see the number of cutlines....hopefully some day soon we will run out of oil and be able to let the forest regenerate.

the chef

Yes, flying over the land is the best way to see how we are really 'fucking-up'(technical term for negatively impacting our environment) our wilderness...

...and it is not just in Alberta, but in Quebec (massive clear-cuts as far as the eyes can see when flying over thousands of square kilometers), B.C. (as Kut mention) and probably the whole of Canada.

The question is: What are we going to do about it? This is a tough one. I contribute to the Quebec Wildlife Federation, the Foundation for Quebec Wildlife among others (SCI, B&C, Ducks etc..). But, I realize that this is a drop in the bucket.

Unfortunately, I think in order to create major change, we actually have to become involved in or influence senior management and/or the board of directors of the largest corporations that affect the environment or else, become actively involved in Government.

What small changes can we do to make the environment a better place?

quote:

What small changes can we do to make the environment a better place?

About the only thing we can do is to quit working, quit driving, quit building houses, pretty much quit doing everything and eat leaves as long as we don't eat too many of them. If we want to continue our existence as we know it then the wilderness will suffer. It is human greed and consumption that is destroying the wilderness and with the burgeoning population in the world living or wanting to live like we do it will only suffer more. Things like one or two people living in a 3000sq.ft. houses with two or three vechiles, quads, boats, campers etc, etc is what is causing the destruction of the wilderness. It all comes from the earth, the more we take the less there is. As far as I'm concerened there is no real wilderness left, just places the govt has designated wilderness areas that are full of tourists and resorts. There is not anywhere you can go and not find sign of man being there previously.

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
We've always had good luck not too far from mcmurray. It does sicken me though when flying over any area in Alberta to see the number of cutlines....hopefully some day soon we will run out of oil and be able to let the forest regenerate.

the chef

What do you plan to do when your ass is freezing in the dark after the oil "hopefully" runs out? Burn that beautifully regenerated forest, stick by stick?

I made an awful lot of those 'sickening' cutlines - and believe me, without them Alberta would not be the wealthy province you enjoy today. You want less cutlines? Move to Newfoundland, and let me know how you like their economy.

You want to see decimated forests? Try flying over some clear cut blocks, compliments of Weyerhaeuser or Weldwood or Diashowa or any number of other logging companies - and then compare the return on investment for the country as a whole, per acre affected.

I'm sick and tired of taking flack from bunch of city slicker tree huggers who sit on their fat and sassy asses, wallowing in the benefits of the oil industry in Alberta, while bad mouthing it at the top of their lungs.

Coming from somebody who apparently makes their living in Calgary, that's a quite a post.

Hello;
Don't get testy guys, but when you live in an area like me, where they leave a thin border of trees around the roads, to con us into believing we are driving through the forest, you say to yourself, there's got to be a better way.
Oil has come a long ways. I was up in Swan Hills last year and was amazed by the haphazardness of development and the junk lying around, compared to more recent fields.
Grizz

I agree with Grizzly Adams.

We gotta start hugging some of those trees or we won't have anything left, not to mention that there won't be any quality elk, grizzly, Mule deer etc. to hunt.

ALso, all of this access gives lazy road hunters the ability to go in and shoot and kill form roads, increasing success rates and impacting wildlife...

Let's not get testy though, we are all in this together and have to balance economic benefit with wildlife destruction vs renewable resource.

Yeah, you're right and I apologise for being a grumpy old bastard. I just (barely) got through a week of anti-gun, Liberal-to-the-Goddam-bone in-laws from Toronto. And my wife wouldn't let me kill the bastards.

No wonder I'm grumpy.

quote:

You want to see decimated forests? Try flying over some clear cut blocks, compliments of Weyerhaeuser or Weldwood or Diashowa or any number of other logging companies - and then compare the return on investment for the country as a whole, per acre affected.

Those clearcuts are the best thing that could have happened to us here on the North coast.

It opens otherwise sterile old rain forrest and we are getting Moose and all kinds of wildlife moving into areas where otherwise we had none.

For the first year or so after cutting it looks like shit and then it becomes revitalized habitat with lots of new growth and plenty hunting potential.

That is absolute bullshit and typical of the misinformation spread by the corporate interests who are destroying B.C.'s natural forests. Clearcut logging is extremely destructive and does NOT "mimic" natural openings in the forest canopy while it destroys the understory and various soil properties, such as increasing carbon loss. While it can be necessary to use small, irregular open cutblocks in some areas in order to deal with issues of safety for loggers, especially fallers, the practice of variable retention logging is much superior in ecological terms.

I do not want to see my country or province turned into a fucking game farm just so some foreigner can easily shoot scores of animals. The primeval forests are NOT sterile, they are among the most diverse and productive ecosystems on the planet. Clearcutting must be outlawed and an ecosystematic approach to resource development instituted NOW; that is what we Canadians want and will have, no matter what it takes.

After nearly 50 years of intense bush experience in western Canada, as a member of a founding, pioneer family and as a former employee of both the B.C.F.S. and the A.F.S., I am not about to sit by and watch my natural heritage destroyed by ignorance, greed and the attitude that natural ecosystems should be modified to produce easy hunting, especially for foreigners.

Kutenay.

I sense a number of anger issues in your post!!!

Foreigners are just folks who havent been in your patch quite as long as you.

I'm guessing the original inhabitants looked at the activities of the 'founding, pioneer families' in much the same light!!

Rgds

Ian

I find this remark to be all too typical of all too many Limeys and it demonstrates an ignorance about Canada and our environmental issues that is also typical.

Yeah, you pompous Colonel Blimp, I am angry about the devastation of MY country and so are a hell of a lot of other Canadians. However, it is OUR country and really none of your business.

The crack about ...original inhabitants...is just the sort of bullshit that I would expect from a Limey, perhaps you could tell us what nationality the General was who attempted to induce smallpox into Aboriginals by giving them blankets infected by deceased victims of that disease. A hint, his name was Amherst.........

quote:

That is absolute bullshit and typical of the misinformation spread by the corporate interests who are destroying B.C.'s natural forests. Clearcut logging is extremely destructive and does NOT "mimic" natural openings in the forest canopy while it destroys the understory and various soil properties, such as increasing carbon loss. While it can be necessary to use small, irregular open cutblocks in some areas in order to deal with issues of safety for loggers, especially fallers, the practice of variable retention logging is much superior in ecological terms.

What's bullshit is a wide sweeping comment like that. It does not do the topic justice to make general comments like that, and if anything, points to the ignorance of the author. Kutenay, I respect your opinion on many topics too much to assume its the latter.

And I assume you are having a particularly bad day? Or maybe you have a history with these guys (ALF and Ian) that I am not aware of? Read on its own, your responses on this thread are shameful.

Cheers,
Canuck

In view of the fact that you are the moderator selected by the owner of AR, I shall not respond to your comments. Be it sufficient to say that my comments are based on my experiences in two Forest Services, private industry and post-secondary ecucation. I could recommend reading concerning carbon loss, for example, but since you are concerned about my comments ( without refuting them), I shall refrain.

I do not know either of the individuals concerned, but, I certainly do NOT apologize for my hardline Canadian nationalism; I do not attempt to tell people in foreign countries how to behave in their homelands and do not tolerate foreign interference in Canada. If, that is shameful, no wonder this country is in the crisis we find ourselves in, enviornmentally, economically and socially. Again, given your position here, that is all I have to say in reply to your offensive remarks.

.

While I must agree in part with Kutenay, there must be exceptions.IMHO people such as Alf are very much needed in Canada and should be welcomed. The problem with the immigration system is that it can't seem to seperate the wheat from the chaff. There are many thousands of thugs,crooks and other not so nice folks allowed into Canada every year with no true background checks. In fact the more trouble you are in in your native country the faster your app. is approved as you may be persecuted in your homeland. Without Alf and other S. Africans there wouldn't be a decent doctor in Sk.You are welcome here my friend and so are your peers. Mark

Old growth forest may be ecologically diverse but there is very little huntable game there. If you want to find a moose look for a four year old clearcut surrounded by older cuts.

Logging is the 3 largest industry in Alberta, more like 2, where I live. The only reason it is economically viable is because the timber companies have logged off or been run out of just about everywhere else. The mills are specifically designed to handle small diameter logs and a trip to any lumber yard around here will show what kind of crap they produce. The last time I bitched about getting 3S 2x4 s, the yard guy pointed out that's what you get when you make 4" lumber out of 3" trees. Nothing is safe. At my friends place in Valleyview, they are harvesting 3" Aspens for chipboard.
The re-construction in the Gulf is allready causing increases in Lumber prices and is going to put more pressure on our forests. Maybe, now is the time to restrict exports and sort this Softwood Lumber mess out. Damn, I guess I'm getting political again.
Grizz

quote:

but since you are concerned about my comments ( without refuting them),

Kutenay,

Please don't let my "moderator" status cause you to treat me any differently than anyone else. You won't get banned or censored for saying anything to me, that wouldn't result in the same thing if you said it to someone else (and if you know our policy on censorship around here, that gives you a pretty long leash). I feel I only deserve the same amount of respect as everyone else around here.

WRT the text I quoted from your post above, I have neither the time or inclination to get into a lengthy debate with you about forest practices in BC. I do it every day for pay and I come here to wind down, not get wound up. I do feel very qualified to debate you on this topic, however. I too have some considerable experience in this field. And to be clear, I was not implying that you are completely wrong in your opinions, just that I feel your comments are too general and wide-sweeping to do justice to a complicated issue and also give the impression that things "in the woods" are far worse than I believe them to be.

My major beef with you was the way you reacted to our international / landed immigrant / new citizen friends on this forum. You are entitled to your hardline nationalist views and while I may not always agree 100%, I respect your opinions and am happy that there are people like you around to bring some balance to these issues. You can probably surmise from my choice of alias that I too am a proud Canadian. What I felt was shameful was the unprovoked personalization of your attacks. That is beneath you. You are obviously quite intelligent and capable of constructive debate. You don't need to resort to personal attacks to make your point.

Thats all I meant by the "shameful" reference in my post above. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Without Alf and other S. Africans there wouldn't be a decent doctor in Sk.You are welcome here my friend and so are your peers.

Same goes in most of rural BC!

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,

Very well said.

I too have considerable experience in Forestry; though my degrees are in Management. I have worked for several of Canada's largest in the Lumber, Pulp and Paper industry. I have been involved in strategic decisions and performance improvement initiatives that directly impacted the management of our forest reserves. I have also researched and contributed an article in a major publication describing the consolidation of the pulp and paper industry.

While I am part of the "Corporate" world, I also wear the hat of a "hunter" and "conservationist". I continually have to balance both corporate and environmental interests whenever working in natural resource based industries. It is good to know that I am not alone in this regard.

Cheers,
CL

I don't have much experience in the logging industry but I have worked in the oilsands for over 25 years.The way the large companies are allowed to exceed the emissions levels set forth by the government would shock many people.The government allows the company to exceed the levels for a generous period then applies fines which in comparison to the money generated at the plant are ridiculously low.After initially agreeing to reforest the mined area after the oil is extracted ,the companies are now permitted to plant grass instead for native workers to raise bison on.They do this under the guise of promoting the historical relationship between the bison and the natives but the simple truth is that it costs only about 10% as much to seed grass as it would to reforest the area.It is truly amazing just how the government is willing to look the other way in order to keep the oil royalties flowing in.

From reading some of the responses to this post, it would then appear to me that Money and Business seems to be winning out over the desires of conservative hunting Canadians, and from that evidence, that the Conservative hunting Canadians can't seem to get some of their own lot elected into the Government.

The evidence. Tar Sands get mined and no reforestation.

Outifitters continue to be allowed to bring in Hunters from all over the world

Forests do not get replanted, or at least there is some controversy as to the proper methods for replanting.

Is there less game in Canada now than say 25 years ago?

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
I find this remark to be all too typical of all too many Limeys and it demonstrates an ignorance about Canada and our environmental issues that is also typical.

Yeah, you pompous Colonel Blimp, I am angry about the devastation of MY country and so are a hell of a lot of other Canadians. However, it is OUR country and really none of your business.

The crack about ...original inhabitants...is just the sort of bullshit that I would expect from a Limey, perhaps you could tell us what nationality the General was who attempted to induce smallpox into Aboriginals by giving them blankets infected by deceased victims of that disease. A hint, his name was Amherst.........

Kutenay.

Only just got around to reading your reasoned and articulate reply to my post. Man, You do have issues!

Here's a hint - if you wish to be taken seriously, just debate the detail of a post. Avoid flying off the handle like a rabid fool and bask in the newfound respect you find comes your way.

Thanks for the stereotyping - however, its actually waaay off the mark. I'm a foreigner AND a hunter who has been lucky enough to visit YOUR country and spend some money. Didn't get to take game - had a wonderful time, met some really great folks and can't wait to visit again.

The crack about the 'original inhabitants' was only put there to illustrate that your zenophobic outlook looks rather silly from the other side of the fence. I note that you were not able to argue that point.

Have a nice day!

Rgds Ian

Well, I was going to let this go, but, I think that I will respond to this last post due to it's personal nature.

First of all, I am not ...zenophobic..., I actually am very friendly with the Zen Buddists who have a temple about a block from my Vancouver, B.C. home. If, the poster actually means, as his context would indicate, "xenophobic", I would politely suggest that he learn to spell polysyllabic words BEFORE demonstrating his ignorance by misspelling them.

I would further caution an Englishman or Limey about warning ANYONE else about xenophobia; it is not we Canadians whose "soccer louts" are hated throughout continental Europe and we do not have a "National Front" or frequent, massive race riots in our cities. But, I am an upstart, bloody Colonial, so, what would I know except that this attitude from Limeys is/has been a major source of intense annoyance to many Canadians for decades.

Now, as to my ...founding, pioneer family.... which this Limey attempts to mock; my first direct family ancestor was one Sir Duguid McCallum, who was with Sir William Alexander when he established the first colony in what is now Nova Scotia, circa 163?. On my father's side, my great-great uncle Robert pioneered in Victoria, B.C circa 1870 and other direct relatives participated in the building of the C.P.R., the Klondike Gold Rush, the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, the Battle of Lundie's Lane in the War of 1812-1814 and on and on. Quite frankly, I am a REAL Canadian and feel it is my duty to oppose environmentally AND culturally destructive practices/influences in this country; this includes both the corporate domination/devastation of our environment and the patronizing bullshit that emanates from foreigners, such as this denizen of "perfidious Albion".

In short, you Limey, you know jacksquat about Canada, our history, environmental management or me; so, go play with Boy George and Tiny Tim and mind your own business. I don't give a fiddler's fuck what my comments look like from your side of the Atlantic as too many members of my family shed their blood in 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 to save your country from Imperial Germany and the Nazis...REAL Englishmen remember that and behave accordingly.

Now, it was not my original intent to insult Alf, but, I can see how my choice of words could have hurt his feelings. I have NO animosity toward Alf and so, I apologize for upsetting him. I am a longterm, hardcore, active conservationist and I admit that I sometimes could be a bit more diplomatic in my comments; however, it's the temperament inherited from my berserker Viking ancestors that influences me.....better an honest man than a sniveling PC punk, IMO.

I can easily document my statements concerning the deleterious effects of clearcutting upon various species/communities; the most notorious example in northern B.C. was, of course, the Bennett dam reservoir where I worked for the B.C.F.S. circa 1973. Other examples are to be found in the Kootenays, the hydrological characteristics of the major spawning streams of Kootenay Lake,i.e., Crawford Creek being one of many such situations.

Anyone can debate environmental management, I have lived and worked throughout B.C., AB. and part of the NWT since 1965; this includes periods of months alone in the most remote wilderness areas, including north of Stewart, B.C. So, the crack about Canadians being unwilling to live/work in these areas is el toro po-po, there is that better?

NOW, we come to the REAL problem with this Alf character and it is a deadly serious business. How many Canucks here present realize that this guy has possession of many, many classic Brnos, my favourite rifle? This includes owning not only a ZG-47 in 9.3x62, BUT, he also has one in 9.3x64 and THAT is simply unCanadian!!!! I would KILL for one of those rifles and simply cannot accept any old African having them when I don't, seems unCanadian to me.

Now, I will go and drink my maple syrup and be a good, little Colonial, unless someone pisses me off by mocking my family or my country again.

quote:

On my father's side, my great-great uncle Robert pioneered in Victoria, B.C circa 1870

On my mothers side, I apparently have a great-great-great-grandfather named Robert McLean that pioneered in Victoria BC circa 1860's. Cool.

A couple other comments that I just can't help but address....

quote:

Well, I was going to let this go, but, I think that I will respond to this last post due to it's personal nature.

You do realize that you were the one that made it personal, right? His response says you have issues and that you have a xenophobic view, but I don't see where he mocked your family? Did I miss something along the way? I don't know Ian from Jack...do you guys have a history or something?

quote:

I admit that I sometimes could be a bit more diplomatic in my comments; however, it's the temperament inherited from my berserker Viking ancestors that influences me.....better an honest man than a sniveling PC punk, IMO.

I agree with you, but this excuse gets bandied about by the curmudgeon crowd far too much. Its better to be neither an asshole or a sniveling PC punk. There is a huge amount of middle ground in between.

quote:

the most notorious example in northern B.C. was, of course, the Bennett dam reservoir where I worked for the B.C.F.S. circa 1973. Other examples are to be found in the Kootenays, the hydrological characteristics of the major spawning streams of Kootenay Lake,i.e., Crawford Creek being one of many such situations.

I have to agree with that, but there is not much we can do about it now other than learn from the mistakes. Dwelling on the past will serve no constructive purpose. But I'll be sending my letters of opposition, etc, if they ever decide to go ahead with Site C.

quote:

Anyone can debate environmental management,

How true! See it every single day. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and on this topic EVERYONE has one...whether its an informed, educated opinion is another thing altogether (for clarity this is a general observations, NOT a reference to YOUR opinion on the topic, which obviously comes from a long history of experience).

Last, if you do have any good suggestions for reference material on carbon loss, or whatever, I am always happy to hear them. A closed mind is no better than an empty one.

Cheers,
Canuck

Actually, I did not make it personal, I referred to "foreigners" hunting in B.C. and that was in respect of the commercial hunting situation that currently exists there. I did not mention anyone by name and am not responsible for what someone else feels about what I write, although I have apologized for any upset to Alf.

Now, someone who is NOT a Canadian citizen is, by definition, a "foreigner" and that is not generally considered an insult; it is simply a fact and I think that is obvious. I think that there is far too much bullshit by far too many newcomers to this country about their cultures, rights, feelings and status. Canada belongs to people who were BORN here and anyone who is allowed to enter this country should be damned grateful; it is a PRIVILEGE, not a "right".

As to the comments directed at IanF, he mocked my family and is bloody fortunate that he is not present in front me; I have experienced far too much of this from Limey's in Canada and have kicked the shit of of several of them....most of my buddies feel and act exactly the same way. The English DO NOT HAVE ANY special rights in Canada, period, everyone born here of whatever ethnicity is EQUAL and Limey immigrants/visitors are just as much "foreigners" as Chinese or whomever.

The problems with corporate and lickspittle government management of B.C.'s environment continue today and no amount of corporate rhetoric concerning "stewardship" will change that. Recent incidents include Wabamun Lake, the Elaho River and the Moyie River. Given that the effects of clearcutting STILL severely impact the spawning streams of Kootenay Lake and the wildlife populations of the Flathead Valley, I do not think that being concerned about these are indicative of a closed mind, but, rather a level of social/environmental responsibility that Canada/B.C. needs more of.

As to the population dynamics of Alces Gigas, as mentioned by Alf (poor bugger!), the facts are that the very short term numbers of Moose often will increase in visibility in clearcuts; this is then rapidly followed by a greater than previous increase in predator caused mortality and losses due to micro-climatic and sustenance changes over time. This has happened in B.C., north of Stewart where a former Minister of Forests, a B.S.F./R.P.F. from U.B.C. deliberately introduced clearcutting into what he described as "the fiberfarm" during the administration of "Jackboot Bill" Bennett. The Moose populations suffered as a result and this is demonstrated by the fact that we now have about 80% of the hunters we had twenty years ago, but, we have fewer Moose as the L.E.H. situation demonstrates.

I have zero respect for large corporations as they have been responsible for most of the social ills and environmental devastation throughout Canadian History; this started during the time of the "One Hundred Associates", then into the era of the H.B.C., the C.P.R. and on and on.....the pollution of the St. Mary's River and the Elk river by Cominco and the Kaiser coal mining firm????

I could go on, but, this makes my point and every single incident I have mentioned is easily documented in both the popular media and technical-scientific publications. In fact, I am planning, at 59, to return to U.B.C. for further studies this coming January; this will enable me to continue to fight against the landrapers and cultural traitors who are destroying Canada as we argue.

quote:

As to the comments directed at IanF, he mocked my family

Maybe I'm dense or just too good natured, but I didn't read that into his comments at all.

quote:

Canada belongs to people who were BORN here and anyone who is allowed to enter this country should be damned grateful; it is a PRIVILEGE, not a "right".

I couldn't agree more. Damned grateful is exactly how I'd put it.

quote:

I do not think that being concerned about these are indicative of a closed mind,

I never said or implied that YOU have a closed mind. I stated that I am open to all information, because I don't have or want a closed mind. I have no idea how open or closed you are to new information.

quote:

corporate rhetoric concerning "stewardship" will change that.

Its not all "rhetoric". There are a lot of good, smart, well educated people in the forest industry that have the best interest of the environment in mind above all else. Clearcutting is not the same everywhere (ie. 1000 year old coastal rainforest vs. 80 year old Lodgepole Pine forests, dry ecosystems with frequent fire return intervals vs. high elevation Spruce/Balsam forests with multi-aged stand structure vs coastal oldgrowth with a self-replacing ecology, etc). Sometimes clearcutting is not bad at all and may in fact be the most ecologically appropriate option for forest managers (in its general sense, provided there is good planning involved). At the other end of the spectrum, small patchcutting in certain ecosystems can be the worst possible treatment. Its all relative to the ecology of the specific site.

I, as with many of my peers, endorse ecosystem management principles, with consideration to habitat and structure at stand and landscape levels, protections for key environmental values (water, soil, wildlife, etc), and emphasis on RONV (range of natural variation) at the landscape level.

The company I work for has the only FSC certification in BC and is working on getting more. In cooperation with local and national ENGO's we are actively identifying HCVFs (High Conservation value forests) and setting management strategies for same, and identifying EFs (Endangered Forests) with no management allowed. The list goes on and on....

There are A LOT of good things going on in the woods if you take the time to look around.

I won't try to justify the mines because I don't really like big black holes in the earth. But its a dilemma for most of us...I sure like my truck and driving it. Don't know what I'd do without steel.

quote:

As to the population dynamics of Alces Gigas

I am pretty sure you mean Alces alces. Alces alces gigas is the Alaska-Yukon subspecies.

Moose do in fact respond quite positively to forest harvesting or fire. It is not a carte blanche excuse to clearcut per se, but it is true. They need the type of groceries that they find in recently disturbed areas. Its a fact. Their primary food sources get unpalatable and less nutritious with age, and many are eliminated under a coniferous canopy. Disturbance (natural and otherwise) in almost all cases increases the carrying capacity of the land for moose and other large ungulates, and has led to a huge increase in the range of moose in this province over the last 200 years.

Its also a fact, however, that they are easier to find as a result of the disturbance and are therefore more vulnerable to human predation. But that is what needs to managed moreso than the generally favorable modifications (assuming some decent planning) to habitat. Don't get me wrong, I don't like LEH either. In fact, its usually the access that is the problem, and in some areas you can trace the population decline to year round overharvesting (particularly of cows/calves) by aboriginal groups as you suggest above.

Cheers,
Canuck

At first you said that you would not debate forest management with me, but, it seems that my "gadfly" approach has changed your mind. This is exactly why I sometimes use very blunt, provocative statements on issues concerning both Canadian nationalism and the environmental problems we face, as I am sure you realize; sorry about the typo re: Alces, too busy with cleaning my equipment room this ayem.

NOW, you cunning character, admit that FIRE and clearcutting DO NOT modify forest eco-systems in similar ways and thus do not affect populations of various organisms in the same way. I hoped that you would bring this point forward as this is central to my original point re: Moose in clearcuts. IF, precribed burning is done in an appropriate fashion,THEN Moose, Elk and Mule Deer plus Black Bear habitat can be enhanced; BUT, the massive clearcuts typical of even contemporary corporate logging do not mimic such "natural" openings in the forest canopy and they also radically alter the understory in terms of browse plants and nutrient retention....this is what I should have said to begin with.

Mea Culpa on the closed mind, I am not accusing you of this and I respect your comments concerning clearcut applications on various site types. But, my point is still valid in that the majority of the logging now being done is both corporate directed, clearcut oriented and has a massive impact on Moose and other ungulates, the decimation of the West Kootenay Mountain Caribou herd being a case in point.

I guess that it all comes down to whether or not you believe in human ability to "manage" the biosphere through science and technology. When I was your age, I did, now, I don't and am in favour of very strict limitation on human activities in order to preserve natural ecosystems.....this makes me, gasp, shudder, a "tree-hugger", my bad....

I also notice that you advocate an ecosystematic approach to forest harvesting/management and that was the gist of my point; so, we agree on a few things. As to my reading in forestry, etc, it is largely from Kimmins, Masur, Krajina, McT.-Cowan, and others with an ecological and even aesthetic appraoch to the subject. I also have spent a lot of time with friends who are biologists, Drs. J. Hatter, B. Fraser and even V.Geist have heavily influenced my opinions on these issues.

So, very good comments and lots of fun to debate the really important stuff as I get kinda tired of the same old...is the .30-.06 really enough for Aardvaarks????