Actually, you have misunderstood what I was saying, which is that the "greenies" or "treehuggers" as you refer to them, are actively promoting a type of activity to generate economic benefits that is detrimental to the animals they say they are trying to preserve. So, I was actually more in agreement with you than not, even though I am apparently incapable of understanding this issue.

May I suggest that you take your own advice, I have not made any reference to any of your posts other than to take slight exception to the use of the term "treehugger". While I may not be able to understand your references, I had no trouble obtaining and holding employment with both the B.C. and the Alberta Forest Service(s) in a wide variety of positions, including supervisory ones.

But, the important issue here is the fate of the Caribou and all wildlife, hopefully we can agree on that.

Wow, Kutenay, I have no idea where you would get the idea that I advocate anything from my posts, least of all heliskiing and such. If you re-read my posts and take the time to read the articles I have referred to you may understand what I was questioning, but I doubt it.

I didn't know about the ones in S.E. B.C.,the ones I was talking about were the ones in the southern Cariboo.At the rate we are logging they are toast.They winter in old growth forest.

kutenay, my humble apologies if I misunderstood your comments. I always have gone head to head with every supervisor I've ever had. 'Those who can, do. Those who can't, supervise.' I think it was George Bernard Shaw that said that. No, wait, it was Bubba at the gun counter yesterday.
So, aside from the unfortunate boos in the S.E. of B.C., are any of the others really threatened? It would seem the dirty Red journalists would have us believe they are.

Yama,after the six readings,I think Kutney was including us in those who despise "greenies",I think

A lot of the protest is money genrating activity for the protesters,not for the enviroment.

Hiking is much more disruptive than they say. A couple of Wash. state hunters backpacked into a basin for about 10yrs for Muley bucks.A trail was put in with the hiker accessing it.Where there had been six doe-fawns,there was now only one.

I haven't participated much in the forum discussions for a while, so I'm not sure if this has been covered, but what's with the caribou being declared an endangered species?

I hadn't heard that either yama! derf

WHICH HERD and in what part of Canada????

You'll have to be more specific than that. Herd sizes are always fluctuating. Some herds seem to decline a bit faster than they have in the past though.

The Woodland Caribou in Southern BC has been considered endangered for quite a while, and efforts to up the numbers don't seem to do much good.

Frans

In the article I read, a specific herd was mentioned, also mentioned was that the herds in northern B.C. area weren't low, but of course the tree huggers will sieze the opportunity to label all caribou as endangered, no? I have asked a few customers about this, and some have confirmed the rumor. So, what, they're like down from 5 million to 4 million?

THAT is like the hunting in Quebec we do. Last body estimate was there were something like 1.25 million in the herd and there has been discussion of giving licenses for 3 animals in the next year or so because they are growing at a much faster rate then predation or hunting claims on them.

I've often wondered what the effects of the pipelines in the west are. You hear pretty conflicting stories depending upon the interest of the person doing the writing.
Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

As a treehugger of more than 40 yrs., one of the founders of SPEC, an early advocate (1960) of large-scale wilderness protection and former executive member of the B.C. Wildlife Fereration, I am always very concerned about any environmental issue.

I am fairly certain that the Caribou issue the poster is refering to is the status of the Mountain Caribou of southern B.C. These animals have been pretty much extirpated over their former range; this is primarily due to logging practices and the prognosis for their survival is pretty hopeless. This is just one more episode of environmental destruction in the "development" of this province; as we all know, you can't stop "progress"!

Talk about hypocrisy,we have the greenies stopping the grizzly hunt,which we have plenty of,but not a word is said about a goofy woodland caribou.They do look goofy.Who going to donate after seeing pictures of them?

hello;
Mountain Caribou in Alberta are considered endangered. Other than having a limited range to begin with, they suffer from habitat destruction and depredation by our native brothers. I got really pissed of and sent an e mail off to some oil company that claimed it was due to "hunting". Any one who has driven north from Hinton to Grande Cache has seen the plywood cutouts to remind drivers to watch out for caribou. They congregate around the highway in the winter and get sniped at.
Grizz

In 1990-91, I worked for the Alberta Forest Service at Hinton and I witnessed at first hand the depredations of the "natural conservationists" on wildlife. In 1993, I worked for the A.F.S. in the Slave Lake-Wabasca area and watched the Indians massacre Moose, including pregnant Cows, literally by the dozen.



I was told by locals that the Indians had pretty much wiped out the local Caribou population......must have been the bad influence of the "Whiteyes" though, as everyone knows that we are all racists who are reponsible for all of the wrongs of the world. During four solid months alone in the bush there, I saw exactly ONE bull Caribou,, in an area that formerly teemed with them.



But, most of the destruction of the Mountain Caribou here in B.C. is due to high altitude, clear-cut logging to feed the pulp-paper and plywood mills with Engelmann and White

Spruce feed stock. This is the result of the sort of "Forestry", taught at U.B.C. and the attitude that humans can design a better forest than evolved in natural, virgin eco-systems.



When I was a boy, 40-50 yrs. ago, the West Kootenays, had a large Mountain Caribou population; after the past few decades of industrial logging and "forest management", there are only about a dozen animals left alive. The Indians didn't get these ones, although they have killed transplanted Bighorn Sheep, because they have the "right" to do do......whatever the cause, Caribou are in trouble as the human exploitation of the Canadian landscape continues.

Kutenay is right (as usual). Let me add a few things. The mountain caribou of the southern Canadian Rockies (and northern Idaho) is one of the few mammals that actually go up the mountains in the winter, rather than down into the valleys. The reason for this is a combination of two factors: their love of "goat's beard moss," that grows and hangs from the branches of old-growth trees, and their unusally large feet. The snowpack in the winter is high enough so that the moss is within reach of an animal that can stand on top of the snow, and the caribou has the big feet to do it!
The logging of old gowth high elevation forest removes this valuable winter food source for the caribou, thus increasig the die-off at a critical time of the year. Making this doubly tough, the animals are forced to go lower looking for food, making them vulnerable to the predators (read wolves) who have also gone down the mountains.

A third problem is the steady influx of heli-skiers into the high backcountry. Caribou do not mix well with helicopters; in fact, unlike deer, they are not very tolerant of human disturbances.

Unless some drastic measures are taken, this population of caribou is doomed, I'm afraid. On the other hand, the herd in northern B.C. is doing fairly well, especially in the northeast part of the province.

These is a bitter irony here in that it is the "greenies" so despised by many hunters, including it seems, "Yama" and "Downwindtracker2" who ceaselessly advocate the various backcountry activities such as heli-skiing as an ecoonomic alternative to resource extraction. Of course, most of these people seldom venture far into the wilderness and will only go into the high country via helicopter; they are really about what is cool and trendy, NOT about conservation!

I doubt that the Mountain Caribou of southern B.C. will survive, because the governments simply do not care about wildlife. The new ski development outside of Invermere is going to be rammed through and it will have an enormous, negative impact on the regions wildlife, especially Grizzlies.

Just norht-west of Nelson, there is a "ski lodge" up Baldface Creek, once Mountain Caribou, Elk, Grizzly and Muledeer habitat, now given over to the mountainbiker-snowboarder "outdoorsman". Funny, I used to live at the bottom of the old road up there and backpacked on snowshoes all over that watershed and many others in the area; I never needed a "lodge" to stay in at night, but, I ain't very cool either.

We, who care about wildlife and not solely as "game" to hunt are fighting a losing battle. I doubt that the Mountain Caribou, Grizzlies and Mountain goats will exist outside of a few artificial "nature parks" in 20 yrs., but, hunters will be blamed for the loss of these species, you can bet on that!

I was with the Barnet Rifle Club from '83 to about '97 and they were shut down by the machinations of N.D.P. members of the Burnaby City Council, as I am sure you know. I had joined the Mission Club in '93 as it offered a superior rifle facility and remain with them as I have a large and valuable gun collection and need somewhere to shoot.

The reaction to the gun laws is typically Canadian, which is why this country has declined so much in the past 40 yrs. Every Prime Minister we have had since John Diefenbaker has been a scumbag, urban lawyer, especially fag Trudeau, lyin' Brian and that little crooked tongue Jean, the peasoup scum.

I found that MOST of the people in these gunclubs tend to agree with much of this fascist firearms legislation; it's the old story, the government knows best, demonstrating the colonial mentality still prevalent in this country, it's sad, but true.

Yama,
Look at some of the herds in North Eastern BC.In region 7-49,where we once saw dozens of caribou every year,we now have gone several years without seeing a single one.I know that the caribou that we used to see were pushed down into the low country by the snows and that the snows are coming later now but we don't even find any sheds to show that they ever did migrate through.As well,the wolves were having a major impact on the caribou population.
I don't know if endangered is the right word,but dwindling certainly is!
Dave

"I found that MOST of the people in these gunclubs tend to agree with much of this fascist firearms legislation;"

Kutenay and derf,
I have been a member of the MDRG for 3 or 4 years now, and have not met anyone there who agrees with current firearms legislation, nor do they seem to be complacent about the changes. Since you've been there longer than I, perhaps you have more data.

Like you, Kutenay, I got the membership because of the excellent range facilities. Lately, I began to feel a bit guilty about not helping out in any way, so I volunteered to help. I got more than I bargained for, as they asked me to be the editor of the newsletter. In a moment of weakness, I succumbed.

My point is that I have read many of your contributions in this and other forums. You write well and have a wealth of experience and knowledge. I'd like you to consider contributing to the newsletter in some form, even occasionally. Additionally, if you're not entirely satisfied with club that you belong to, it makes more sense to become involved and seek change rather than to sit on the sidelines. Think it over and give me a pm if you wish. Or - tomorrow night is the monthly general meeting; consider showing up and introducing yourself to me. I'm the bald guy who's in your age bracket.

I fully intend to become more active, after Xmas, I have been held up by some serious issues at home for quite some time; I have been extremely active in conservation since I was 14 in 1960. I have never been one to sit on the sidelines and kvetch, I started fighting against "gun control" in 1968, when I was 21.

My comment, which I should have been more specific about, was dealing with "black guns" and I honestly found that most of the guys I knew at Barnet and many I have met at Mission tend to favour banning them from private ownership.

I have also found a level of complacency about government activities among Canadian shooters that is sometime disheartening; there is lots of bitching, but, relatively little desire to take personal action. This attitude has been the major reason that the Liberals have been able to get away with the systematic destruction of traditional Canada, IMHO.

I will get in touch, right after Xmas, you may depend on it.

"I'm the bald guy who's in your age bracket." John that covers most of our age bracket.I find the guys at the club friendly and helpful.

OK, here goes: Do you think that as responsible and law-abiding gun owners that we may turn things in our favor if we take a more proactive role in the legislation process? I mean, instead of opposing everything that concerns registration, etc., would it pay to make suggestions via MPs/MLAs that would satisfy (if that's possible) proponents and the gun toting population? It's just food for thought, to stimulate everyone (like you need it) and isn't necessarily my personal opinions. For example, gun manufacturers have come up with locking systems built in to guns rather than waiting to be told to do it. Could the same be applied to the game allocations?

Those active in the BCWF do make a difference.

I would hope that's true. We have a couple of members of our local club that seem to go head to head with the outfitters and biologists to keep an even playing field for the resident hunters. I've heard, once again, the BCWF is broke? Where in the hell will that leave us?

I have to admit that my impression after nine years with the B.C.Forest Service, three with the Alberta Forest Service and quite a few with private Forestry firms as well as having worked for Fish and Wildlife and been an executive member of the Federation, is that the governments tend strongly to favour the G.O.A.B.C.-after the poor starvin' Indians, of course.

The problem is, IMO, that people working in resource management tend to develope a proprietorial attitude toward the resource(s); I have witnessed this with "Moose and Goose" personnel and B.C.F.S. staff, many times. There is, or was, a certain wildlife biologist in N.E.B.C., not John Elliot, who choppered into the headwaters of Chlotapecta Ck. when I was hunting there some years ago. He was very snotty and arrogant and treated the packer, a native born B.C. resident and we three resident hunters as though we were intruders in HIS domain.

I very firmly informed him that I am a former B.C.F.S. person, was at that time an A.F.S. employee and that my family had been in B.C. since shortly before Confederation; I then told him that it was our right to hunt there and to modify his tone. He was, it seems, a UBC classmate of one of the well-known outfitters in the area and had told other residents I know to leave as they were disturbing ____'s area. He was a first-class asshole and the ironic thing about it is that the week before I had been in Victoria, discussing employment with the then #2 guy in the Wildlife Branch, who had been very positive about my signing on as a C.O.

There are many really good people in the Forest Service and in MALWP, but, they have ALWAYS been underpaid, underfunded and understaffed; you dare not speak out in defense of the environment or you can be terminated. If, you have three kids, a wife, a mortgage and a Master's in Zoology, you either shut up or maybe lose your home. So, some of them seem to develope the attitude that they own the game, trees, fish or whatever; it is a pain in the ass, but, I can understand where it comes from.

The real problem is that most people in B.C. do not give a rat's ass about Wildlife management and our pathetic school system is so busy teaching kids all about how evil the "white" race is that there is little or no real knowledge of nature and our traditional methods of harvesting it in order to survive. The only information that most B.C.'ers receive about Nature comes from T.V., dominated by David Suzuki and others like him, so, we are paying the price.

I think that those few scientists that are warning us that all wildlife is seriously threatened and many species are in danger are telling the bitter truth. We have an exploding human population, all of whom want a consumerist, North American lifestyle and we have steadily diminishing non-renewable resources and space for them. We also have a huge wave of politically active immigrants from cultures where wildlife preservation is largely seen as a waste of time and money and their desires are rapidly changing Canada, the RCMP Stetson-turban issue being one case in point.

I fully expect to see the species that have difficulty adapting to Man decline or be extirpated as Canada is taken over and filled up by the enormous population surge of Africa, Asia and so forth. The Grizzly, the Caribou, the Mtn. Goat and Wild Sheep will survive in tiny bands in a few "preserves", but, the old days are gone and our hunting heritage is probably in it's final few decades.

...pity this busy monster, manunkind, progress is a comfortable disease...

Kutenay, do you remember the movie "Silent Running". I don't expect the human attitude will ever change! derf

kutenay-As usual you are right on track, I applaude your ideas and patriotism. Karl

If I were to commit a crime requiring a firearm at close range, I would prefer a full-auto! That was a joke! So, should hunters be more aggressive in coming up with solutions that may exist only in the minds of the uninformed/biased public? I suppose we do already, but let's face it, hunting is pretty much politically incorrect these days and the squeeky wheel gets the grease. It's frustrating, being where I am, because firearms are still considered tools of everyday life and game fills the freezer to feed many families. Yet, the biologists and those of that creed that bend the ear of the administration still cater to the antis, be it game regs or firearm legislation. Some poor guy that has lived on the Halfway River all his life and comes to town twice a year can't comprehend what's going on in his world. Now I see they are handing out crack pipes for Christ's sake to the heads in Vancouver! But buddy from the bush can't buy a box of ammo so that he may feed his family and neighbors...