quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:

Do you know that a Canadian, born and bred in a family who has been here since the 18thC., MUST currently hire and pay a GO, who CAN be a foreigner, as much to hunt a Stone's Sheep as an American or other foreign national has to? This, to me, is unacceptable

I agree with you that this sucks. If this is the case in BC, it is important to note that this is a BC problem and not a "Canada problem". I know this is not true in other provinces/territories.

When the hunt sales slow considerably, the prices will have to drop. Simple. And yes, sales have slowed on hunts. Any outfitter who says otherwise is lying.

In many povinces the outfitter will get his license allocation cut if he doesn't sell a certain percentage.

I agree that some areas are charging retarded prices.
Alberta antelope for $5000? I can get that in Wyoming or Montana for $2000.
$13000 for goat in BC? I'll go to Alaska,thank you.
$6500 for Vancouver Island black bear? Head to Manitoba,Ontario, Saskatchewan,Alberta,Idaho,etc. for half that or less.

Watch these prices plummet unless the economy does a 180, which isn't going to happen anytime soon.

quote:

Originally posted by sprayandpray:

Alberta antelope for $5000? I can get that in Wyoming or Montana for $2000.
$13000 for goat in BC? I'll go to Alaska,thank you.$6500 for Vancouver Island black bear? Head to Manitoba,Ontario, Saskatchewan,Alberta,Idaho,etc. for half that or less.

Exactly...How about putting in for a 90% chance Antelope draw in Wyoming for only the cost of a non-resident license! How about $1200 for an Idaho black bear hunt! I've seen them! Finally...$13000 pays for ALL of a nice African plains game hunt....tell me again why I need to hunt Canada for relatively common species? Sheep is another story....but it's a short one.

You are wrong in your assertion about other Canadian jurisdictions. As a Canadian, born and bred, I MUST either hire a GO and pay him the same amount as he would charge a foreigner in Alberta and the Yukon and NWT.

I CANNOT even qualify as a "resident" in the NWT UNTIL I have lived there for TWO years, but, I worked and paid taxes in these places, as did my wife and other close relatives for many years, at least since "The Klondike Goldrush".

So, if I wish to hunt in places where my immediate forbearers pioneered nearly 130 years ago, I MUST pay what a foreigner pays and am subject to higher government fees, as well.This means that it IS ...a Canada problem...

You DON'T ...need to hunt Canada..., at all and if you consider the cost of doing so too high, you shouldn't hunt here.

The wild sheep have been severely impacted by foreign hunting and certain habitat issues and we need to eliminate all foreign and some resident hunting for them here in BC and institute MUCH better habitat protection from petroleum, mineral and forest resource exploitation....banning foreign owership of GO concessions and foreign hunting here is the first and easiest step on this long and difficult process.

So, I would say that Africa or other jurisdictions within your country very probably DO offer you a better "bang for your buck" and MUCH easier hunting, as well.

Let me see if I understand -

I can hunt in Canada and pay a lot to hunt two kinds of sheep, a goat, a moose, elk, two or three kinds of bear, deer and 3 or 4 kinds of caribou. I can hunt 2 or 3 species maximum on one 14 day hunt. AND get to sleep in a tent, hike up and down mountains, get rained on, get snowed on, never take a bath, poop in the bush, eat average food and if I am real lucky - get to ride a horse that will toss me or step on me. All the time, enjoying the services of a part time guide and no cook. I get to pack out the dead critter along with the meat for exercise. My wife would not come and would not poop in the bush. Cost would be from $7500 to $35,000 depending on game desired.

OK, I get it.

If I go to Africa, I get to wear shorts, no rain, sleep in a bed, poop in a toilet, eat 4 star meals with wine, shoot a selection of about 30 game animals in most places, have my clothes washed daily, do not have to deal with horses, enjoy the services of a "trained" professional hunter (Zim trains them extensively), a tracker, a spotter, a cook and meet and greet services on arrival. I get to shoot as many animals as I can afford - some dangerous, some not. The meat feeds the locals or is used for bait and I do not have to carry it very far unless I want to. For 14 days I would spend anywhere from $7500 to $35,000 (add $15000 to $25000 for a free range lion). Also, my wife likes to come and take pics. She has a driver as well.

Let me see - what would I chose?

Also, which place makes me feel the most welcome? Let me see - what would I chose?

I love Canada and Canadians but if I am asked to spend money on a hunt for fun - Hmmmmm, which would I chose?

Here, in BC, there are FOUR legal varieties of wild sheep, Rocky Mtn. BH, California BH, Dall's and Stone's. There are taxonomical arguements concerning them, but, experienced bushmen and locally trained bios can easily tell the difference.

A "BC Slam", done by yourself or with a partner, no guide, is among THE real trophy hunting accomplishments in today's world and one that damm few hunters ever complete.

However,your comments about a ...part time guide... and ...pack out the dead critter... are simply nonsense, as NO BC guide will EVER leave his "dude" because it is illegal and he could lose his licence.

NOBODY is forced or cajoled into packing anything due to not wanting some "dude" to "vapour lock" and " stop and drop"; the average flatlander from the USA simply cannot haul his fat butt up these mountains, let alone pack a Moose quarter.

The real difference is that this is HUNTING and what you seem to prefer, in Africa, is SHOOTING. I would hardly class a "Kudu" shot from a blind at a waterhole as quite the same level of "trophy" as a 38.5" Stone's ram taken on a BC backpack hunt....but, whatever blows your skirt up......

Dewey,
Not sure if you have hunted Africa or not but it is not "shooting" unless you chose to make it so on a game ranch - the same type of game ranch found in BC or Alberta for pet elk and their like. Typically nothing is hunted at waterholes other than by bowhunters.

I agree with you on the sheep. That is a true hunt and adventure. Not my cup of tea but I did take a Dall last year in the Wrangells. My not-so-fat butt made it up and down the hills just fine and I packed the meat out. Again, fun but not my cup of tea. The guides were part time folks as you can only hunt a few weeks a year. They were qualified to do what they do but I see a different level of skill in Africa (outside of the game ranch hunters).

To each his own and I hope you all get the "required guide" business sorted out as a resident should be able to hunt anywhere he legally has access to.

In the meantime, try the Zambezi Valley for buffalo and see what you think...

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Dewey,
Not sure if you have hunted Africa or not but it is not "shooting" unless you chose to make it so on a game ranch - the same type of game ranch found in BC or Alberta for pet elk and their like. Typically nothing is hunted at waterholes other than by bowhunters.

I agree with you on the sheep. That is a true hunt and adventure. Not my cup of tea but I did take a Dall last year in the Wrangells. My not-so-fat butt made it up and down the hills just fine and I packed the meat out. Again, fun but not my cup of tea. The guides were part time folks as you can only hunt a few weeks a year. They were qualified to do what they do but I see a different level of skill in Africa (outside of the game ranch hunters).

To each his own and I hope you all get the "required guide" business sorted out as a resident should be able to hunt anywhere he legally has access to.

In the meantime, try the Zambezi Valley for buffalo and see what you think...

Just to set the record straight.
There is no penned hunting (Big Game) in ALberta.
Not sure about BC.

Calgary Guy

I don't know, there seems to be plenty of sheep available, the residents just don't seem that keen to hunt the things - then bitch when others want to - I wonder why - maybe fat arsed canucks to frigin lazy eh?

2010 SKEENA MOUNTAIN SHEEP

6000 Spatsizi - 80
6027 Mount Edziza - 10
6029 Atlin - 65
6030 Atlin - 40
6031 Tatshenshini - 50
6032 Tatshenshini - 22

Total tags avaulable for only the skeena area - 267....


BTW - ever heard about Mountain Rhe Buck? Go and hunt a few of those Dewey, then lets talk about your sheep and goats eh?



..--..

A couple of further points here, one is that I am perfectly aware that some serious hunting exists in Africa, however, I would point out that the poster complaining about Canadian prices also very strongly indicated his preference for the "soft" style of servant operated camps he likes over there. I simply indicated that such shooting is not really considered "hunting" here; I do not give a shit where he hunts or what he shoots.

The guides in the "Wrangell's" are NOT Canadian and that episode has buggerall to do with hunting here. I have heard a lot of bullshit about Canada and Canadian hunting and I prefer to discuss FACTS, not a lot of bluster about what some guy did elsewhere.

The next is that there are NO fenced, restricted or "canned" hunts in BC, not any at all. The type of fenced "hunts" which exist in foreign nations are not wanted here, nor, are the "hunters" who want to shoot animals under such conditions.

BC hunting is not physically easy, the game is not "thick on the ground" and the "value" in it is that it IS genuine wilderness hunting. This appeals to some people and not to others, but, it is evermore a rarity in today's world and will soon be far more so, given population trends and the increasing hostility of many peoples to what they see as "rich foreign hunters".

So, again, if you do not like the prices, weather, camps, pooping in the bush (poor boy), food, guides or anything else, go elsewhere and hunt there and stop bitching about Canada.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
"Do you know that a Canadian, born and bred in a family who has been here since the 18thC., MUST currently hire and pay a GO, who CAN be a foreigner, as much to hunt a Stone's Sheep as an American or other foreign national has to?"

"So, again, if you do not like the prices, weather, camps, pooping in the bush (poor boy), food, guides or anything else, go elsewhere and hunt there and stop bitching about Canada."

You answered you own question ,Dewey.If you dont want to pony up the cost of going hunting in canada,go somewhere else.And stop whining while your at it.

I was fortunate to have spent a hunting season in BC some years ago on a hunting for work swap. Firstly the hunting and the landscape were just magnificent. The animal numbers were really low excepting black bear and goat and a lot of hunters went home empty handed. The horses were a wonderful way to see the country side but an incredible waste of hunting time especially prime hunting time. The guides for the most part WERE actually part time and very limited in all the skills required to satisfy a paying client. Even caping skills were largely non existent. So probably for the most part the hunts seem over priced but if people are prepared to fork out the dollars asked then it is obviously acceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by Calgary Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Dewey,
Not sure if you have hunted Africa or not but it is not "shooting" unless you chose to make it so on a game ranch - the same type of game ranch found in BC or Alberta for pet elk and their like. Typically nothing is hunted at waterholes other than by bowhunters.

I agree with you on the sheep. That is a true hunt and adventure. Not my cup of tea but I did take a Dall last year in the Wrangells. My not-so-fat butt made it up and down the hills just fine and I packed the meat out. Again, fun but not my cup of tea. The guides were part time folks as you can only hunt a few weeks a year. They were qualified to do what they do but I see a different level of skill in Africa (outside of the game ranch hunters).

To each his own and I hope you all get the "required guide" business sorted out as a resident should be able to hunt anywhere he legally has access to.

In the meantime, try the Zambezi Valley for buffalo and see what you think...

Just to set the record straight.
There is no penned hunting (Big Game) in ALberta.
Not sure about BC.

Calgary Guy

there damn sure is in Sask., Manitoba, and Quebec. unless all the elk and deer ranches with booths at SCI were lying.

quote:

Originally posted by remglenn:
I was fortunate to have spent a hunting season in BC some years ago on a hunting for work swap. Firstly the hunting and the landscape were just magnificent. The animal numbers were really low excepting black bear and goat and a lot of hunters went home empty handed. The horses were a wonderful way to see the country side but an incredible waste of hunting time especially prime hunting time. The guides for the most part WERE actually part time and very limited in all the skills required to satisfy a paying client. Even caping skills were largely non existent. So probably for the most part the hunts seem over priced but if people are prepared to fork out the dollars asked then it is obviously acceptable.

I have no idea where or when this was or who you were with, but, with 45+ years of BC hunting and over 50 yrs. of active bushwhacking under my slightly too large belt, I can tell you that you sure did not deal with top BC guides.

Much of the best hunting country here is ONLY accessible by horses and foot and if you consider horses a ...waste of time..., you must have been very poorly trained in mountain hunting.

The guides I have known have been VERY skilled wilderness pros and their ...lacking... skills, seem to sure find a lot of game for "dude" hunters. I have helped cape and clean enough Grizzly, sheep, Elk and other hides and skulls to know that many of them are equal to any taxidermist...a major one is just down the street from me and he came here from Africa.

I chose not to work as a guide, years ago, although I was offered a position as one a number of times. I am willing to bet serious coin that my "skills" would keep your azz safe and reasonably comfy in ANY BC weather or situation...but, we don't "wait on" clients here, BC guides are not servants.

Would you mind telling whom you were with?

I'd rather hunt Africa any day. This just makes it easier to convince Mamma to send me to Africa instead.

Lemme see, sheep in Canada or Elephant and Leopard in Zimbabwe. That's a toughie, but I think Zim wins that one...every time...

I can hunt sheep here in Idaho for less than the GST on one up north


Rich

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Calgary Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Dewey,
Not sure if you have hunted Africa or not but it is not "shooting" unless you chose to make it so on a game ranch - the same type of game ranch found in BC or Alberta for pet elk and their like. Typically nothing is hunted at waterholes other than by bowhunters.

I agree with you on the sheep. That is a true hunt and adventure. Not my cup of tea but I did take a Dall last year in the Wrangells. My not-so-fat butt made it up and down the hills just fine and I packed the meat out. Again, fun but not my cup of tea. The guides were part time folks as you can only hunt a few weeks a year. They were qualified to do what they do but I see a different level of skill in Africa (outside of the game ranch hunters).

To each his own and I hope you all get the "required guide" business sorted out as a resident should be able to hunt anywhere he legally has access to.

In the meantime, try the Zambezi Valley for buffalo and see what you think...

Just to set the record straight.
There is no penned hunting (Big Game) in ALberta.
Not sure about BC.

Calgary Guy

there damn sure is in Sask., Manitoba, and Quebec. unless all the elk and deer ranches with booths at SCI were lying.

I may have incorrectly assumed BC had "pen raised critter hunter" as I was certain of Sask, Manitoba and Quebec. I did not wish to imply that all of the hunting or even a sizeable portion was "canned".

BC is a fine hunting destination for those that like that type. I compared it to Alaska as I see a lot of similarities in the literature and online. I have fished in BC and spent a lot of time in Alberta on work assignments. Canadians are outdoorsmen as many in the US are.

I prefer Africa for the experience, cost and what I like. Canada is a different, not a worse or better experience - it is just not for me as I have been on 5 horseback hunts and 2 back pack hunts in the US Rockies for sheep and elk. I just don't like it any longer and it is not worth the time, expense and toll it takes on the body when I can enjoy a different and unique experience in Africa for the same money and time - plus take my family and enjoy it more.

To each his own.

On the cost and access issues in BC, I cannot speak, but I am very tired of the lack of access, the need for preference points, and dealing with SOME outfitters that are part time cowboys or ranch hands or whatever 10 months a year and a guide for 6 weeks here in the US. I have been to a couple of the ranch type hunts (not high fenced) in the US and they are fine for the most part, but not quite the African experience.

Again to each his own.

A new survey estimates nearly 700,000 sportsmen and women will hunt outside of the United States in the next two years, which is welcome news to the international community.

HunterSurvey.com, conducted by Southwick Associates, showed 2.6 percent of this country’s 12 million hunters will hunt outside the U.S in the next year while 5.7 percent plan to do so in the next two years.

More than a half million people, or 4.5 percent of HunterSurvey.com respondents, hunted outside of the U.S during the last three years. The most popular destination was Canada, with 46.9 percent of respondents reporting they had visited that destination. Nearly 23 percent of respondents traveled to Africa during the last three years, making it the second most popular international destination. Other popular places to hunt outside the U.S. included Mexico (9 percent), South America (7.6 percent), Europe (5.5 percent) and Australia (5.5 percent).

The survey also revealed what international travel barriers hunters cited as most significant. Cost of international travel ranked number one with 41 percent of survey respondents agreeing it is a barrier. Regulation of firearms and ammunition transportation was number two with 33.2 percent of respondents considering it a barrier.

Hunters spend big bucks when they travel outside the U.S., which is an important source of revenue for the international community, especially developing nations. On average hunters spend $6,718 outside of the U.S. on international hunting trips. This indicates U.S. hunters distributed $3.6 billion to other nations during the past three years. Survey results also show 29 percent of hunters spent $2,001 to $5,000 while 27.6 percent reported expenditures totaling between $5,001 and $10,000. More than 24 percent hunted outside the U.S. for less than $2,000 while 19 percent spent more than $10,000.

Those who hunt, fish and target shoot are invited to participate in www.huntersurvey.com and www.anglersurvey.com. By completing the survey, you will be entered in a monthly drawing for one of five $100 gift certificates to the sporting goods retailer of your choice.

The actual beneficial impact of foreign hunters HERE in BC, to the people who own the wildlife/fish resource is minimal. The cost of government fees and licences also does not really meet the increased management costs associated with 5000+ foreign hunters coming here each year. So, IMHO, the entire "cost" issue is really a bit of a "red herring" in respect of appropriate public policy in BC that concerns "non-resident alien" hunters.

MY feeling is that "Dogcat" summed it up very well in his last post and I agree. BC hunting IS tough going, much of it VERY tough and one often spends a full week or more of days, from 04:00 to 8-9:00 pm, busting one's azz climbing up and down mountainsides choked with "Devil's Club", "Buckbrush" aka Alder and slippery with moss....and does not see even a "spike buck".

Some, like this and others don't, I do and still do my best in my 60s. Anyone, who expects to come here and have "breakfast in bed", fine wines with a "gourmet" dinner and have a "gunbearer", is simply smokin' some weird shit, it ain't like that.

Wilderness horseback and backpack hunting is, TO ME, so far beyond any other hunting that valid comparison does not exist. I frequently am invited to "hunt" on private ranches in Sask. and I have never done so and won't as it simply bores me silly....each to his own.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
A new survey estimates nearly 700,000 sportsmen and women will hunt outside of the United States in the next two years, which is welcome news to the international community.

HunterSurvey.com, conducted by Southwick Associates, showed 2.6 percent of this country’s 12 million hunters will hunt outside the U.S in the next year while 5.7 percent plan to do so in the next two years.

More than a half million people, or 4.5 percent of HunterSurvey.com respondents, hunted outside of the U.S during the last three years. The most popular destination was Canada, with 46.9 percent of respondents reporting they had visited that destination. Nearly 23 percent of respondents traveled to Africa during the last three years, making it the second most popular international destination. Other popular places to hunt outside the U.S. included Mexico (9 percent), South America (7.6 percent), Europe (5.5 percent) and Australia (5.5 percent).

The survey also revealed what international travel barriers hunters cited as most significant. Cost of international travel ranked number one with 41 percent of survey respondents agreeing it is a barrier. Regulation of firearms and ammunition transportation was number two with 33.2 percent of respondents considering it a barrier.

Hunters spend big bucks when they travel outside the U.S., which is an important source of revenue for the international community, especially developing nations. On average hunters spend $6,718 outside of the U.S. on international hunting trips. This indicates U.S. hunters distributed $3.6 billion to other nations during the past three years. Survey results also show 29 percent of hunters spent $2,001 to $5,000 while 27.6 percent reported expenditures totaling between $5,001 and $10,000. More than 24 percent hunted outside the U.S. for less than $2,000 while 19 percent spent more than $10,000.

Those who hunt, fish and target shoot are invited to participate in www.huntersurvey.com and www.anglersurvey.com. By completing the survey, you will be entered in a monthly drawing for one of five $100 gift certificates to the sporting goods retailer of your choice.

Tony,
Thanks for that info. I did not know it existed. With no direct facts of my own, the survey looks plausible and accurate.

quote:

You are wrong in your assertion about other Canadian jurisdictions. As a Canadian, born and bred, I MUST either hire a GO and pay him the same amount as he would charge a foreigner in Alberta and the Yukon and NWT.

I CANNOT even qualify as a "resident" in the NWT UNTIL I have lived there for TWO years, but, I worked and paid taxes in these places, as did my wife and other close relatives for many years, at least since "The Klondike Goldrush".

So, if I wish to hunt in places where my immediate forbearers pioneered nearly 130 years ago, I MUST pay what a foreigner pays and am subject to higher government fees, as well.This means that it IS ...a Canada problem...

You missed my point. I was not saying that you could hunt anywhere in Canada without a guide. I was saying that in any province/territory I know of you can hunt without a guide as a resident. I don't think you can bitch about being forced to hunt as a non-resident in say The Yukon. Frankly, I suspect most BC hunters would find themselves dead under a good number of conditions up there. Further, we in the US have to hunt as non-residents in any other states (besides our own obviously) and often people will simply hire outfitters to bypass the draws in those places and under those circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. Hell, sometimes people hire outfitters to bypass the draws in their OWN states. I've done that too. Stop whining and pay the piper, Dewey. I am not at all sure where your bitch is to be honest....you want to hunt anywhere in Canada as a resident? Great, I'm sure all the hunters living in Whitehorse will be very happy to see you guys come North. I see a lot of sugar filled gas tanks when you guys start to drive out to the sheep country.

HAHAHAHAHA!

Bullshit, you know nothing about the Yukon, NWT or OR BC; again, I LIVED and WORKED in the Territories, over 40 years ago, my wife also lived and worked there and my family members did so from the "Klondike" era, onward. I have been offered jobs in the bush there from the 60's until a couple of months ago, so, do not presume to lecture me about MY country.

I have EVERY right to want to hunt in Canada, ANYWHERE I wish, but, you Yankees have NO "right" here, AT ALL. MY desire to change Canadian hunting regs. to make it possible for a "Newfie" to hunt in BC, or a "Bluenoser" to hunt in the NWT is one of the major motivations behind my interest in totally banning all American hunting/fishing here. So, cry me a fucking river, nimrod, it is your kind that may well experience Canadians in various parts of our land being unhappy to see you.

I have never had the slightest problem with ANY other Canadian anywhere in my country when hunting or fishing; your remark about sugar and gas tanks is simply absurd...but, then, that's usually the way with you Yanks, because you just don't get that nobody, except a very few of the guides, whom you malign, really wants you here, anyway.

Foreigners,, with attitudes like yours, who express them on 'net forums, like this, are the best "helpers" the anti-hunters have; it becomes all too obvious to the average Canuck, that your concern is to grab our rare wildlife for yourselves, as cheaply as we will let you.....typical Yankee behaviour, but, keep it up, it all works toward the end I expect to see and consider best.

HOHOHOHOHO!

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:


I have EVERY right to want to hunt in Canada, ANYWHERE I wish, but, you Yankees have NO "right" here, AT ALL. MY desire to change Canadian hunting regs. to make it possible for a "Newfie" to hunt in BC, or a "Bluenoser" to hunt in the NWT is one of the major motivations behind my interest in totally banning all American hunting/fishing here.

So you have no more right to hunt anywhere in canada except BC,than any other foreigner?

Tough fucking hop,eh ,hoser? Who's the one crying a fucking river now?
Really ,Dewey,its hard to have any sympathy for you,when you act like you do.

I live in downtown, Yukon. Have since 1984.
Any canadian resident can hunt in the Yukon. If not a Yukon resident then once every three years with a resident guide. A resident may guide a resident Canadian once every three years. there are a limited number of guide permits available however to my knowledge the allocation has never been used up. The only game animal that can not be guided for is sheep. Dall, Fanin, Stone. Sheep are kept for residents and people who can or want to pay an outfitter. Sheep are a trophy animal and should be managed as such. Thank goodness they are. There are dall sheep, in northern B.C. so I am not sure why a BC resident would want to come to Yukon to hunt them?
Otherwise all other game, moose, caribou, bears are fair game, with some restrictions on areas.
If one can afford to pay the going price for an outfitter hunt then fine and dandy. Not everything in life is equal or fair so just accept where you are, what you got or if you don't like it strive to do better and or move somewhere else.
By the way. As a canadian resident I can hunt in B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan with a resident guide and in some instances on my own. Not for all game but enough to say thanks, for the opportunity.

Watson Lake

May I ask two simple questions, are you currently involved in an "outfitting" business and, where did you live before the Yukon? I may be mistaken, but, you often seem to me to be very "pro" guides, outfitters and foreign hunters, so, I am curious.

Here in BC, I can invite Watson Lake, or another Canadian resident to hunt with me EVERY YEAR, but, only ONE other Canadian per year is allowed. So, if he and I are buddies, he can hunt BC, accompanied by me, every year as the regs. now stand.

As in the Yukon, sheep are excluded from this and are open ONLY to BC residents and to the clients of GOs. Given the foreign demand for these trophies in recent decades, this means ONLY those who can afford the GO's charges and very few Canadians can.

The question then becomes, should we allow GOs, funded by wealthy foreigners to essentially control the harvest of sheep in BC and the Yukon, OR, should we ban the foreigners and reserve these animals for our fellow Canadians? I favour the latter and want to see an expanded, inter-provincial "hunter host" programme between ALL provinces and territories so that Canadians can benefit from Canadian resources, for a change.

If, this is not acceptable to GOs, who could still stay in business by offering hunts to other Canadians who do not wish to bother with "hunter host" situations, well, I honestly do not care. In fact, a portion of each hunting season in each province and territory should probably be committed to allowing our fellow Canadians equal access to hunting sheep and whatever other game they want to hunt.

I believe in EQUALITY among Canadians and this is one method of strengthening that ideal, just as "transfer payments" are. I don't give a rat's patoot what any foreigner thinks and never will.

Dewey,
I have no issue with Canadians or with Canadians hunting in the US. There is plenty for everyone.

I think the issue you are fighting is one of money. In Wyoming, when I lived there, I had to draw for an elk tag every year. Some years I got one, some not. The game and fish boys also sold a percentage to non-Wyoming residents for about 10x what I paid. This was to generate money for the game dept. I have no issue with this. As a non-Wyoming resident now, I have drawn 5 permits in 8 attempts paying about $650 for each permit. In the end, I still do it because I want to and the cost is not a big deal.

A sheep or moose tag is a once in a lifetime drawing. You can only win once. Is it fair? I think so, how many sheep does a person need to hunt with a limited resource? Stone sheep, I think, are the same. Demand is high = supply is low. Hence the provincial government is setting rules that benefit the resource, not necesarily the hunter. I think that is ok.

As to foreigners hunting in Canada - depends on your definition of foreigner. The dictionary says one type is someone from a differnent country. I guess you are a foreigner to your First Nations folks.

Anyway, you are welcome in the US. Come on down if you wish. You are not a foreigner here. At least not to me.

By the way, here is why I prefer to Africa to North America as a rule -

http://forums.accuratereloadin...201076521#9201076521

To answer the questions

1) I am not a guide/outfitter. Never have been involved in the business.

2) yes I am in support fully of the outfitting business. The harvest is managed and provides environmentally friendly substantial income to many businesses and individuals in the Yukon.

3) I moved to the Yukon from Central British Columbia. I was born in a small town north of Vancouver. And further back our childern are now approx 10th generation Canadians. Our family almost beat columbus to the shores
of the new lands.(so to speak)

As for this post, this is the last time I will respond to any discusssion with Dewey.

Watson Lake

quote:

Originally posted by Watson Lake:

As for this post, this is the last time I will respond to any discusssion with Dewey.

Watson Lake

I should do likewise.

Dogcat, the issue of game management here in BC is far more complex than merely the financial aspects of it; actually, if the GO's fees stay at the current high levels, we residents may well benefit as this could eventually impact on the numbers of "foreign" or "non-resident alien" hunters or "foreign nationals" coming here to hunt.

It is also more than straight-forward "supply and demand" as the GO's quotas are set for five year allotment periods by negotiation between government administrators, the BC Wildlife Federation, aka "the good guys", our voluntary resident hunting/fishing group and the hated, loathsome GOABC, the "lobby group" of many, not all, BC outfitters. The current "battle" is largely DUE to their signing such an agreement and THEN deliberately refusing to abide by it's tenets.......

We also have an increasingly demanding and manipulative aboriginal population involved, {there is NO such entity here in our ONE, UNIFIED, SOVEREIGN nation of Canada, as a "first nation",}; they often make illegal blockades of resident hunters, yet, they work with the GOs to allow foreigners to hunt the very areas and animals they claim to be "protecting"....what a farce!

We have an increasingly strong and FOREIGN-financed anti-hunting lobby here and they are now buying up GO concessions and preventing hunting in these, as much and in any way they can. These people claim to be "conservationists", however, they are really a "hit squad" for the burgeoning and often foreign-owned "ecotourism" industry.

They actually moor large water craft in "protected" BC waters where I CANNOT by law take MY boat and this allows arrogant foreigners to take photos of Grizzlies, etc. This is often done while making sneering remarks about how we Canadians "fail" to manage this "world" resource, OUR fucking land and it's contents.....Limeys are particularly bad in this respect.

Then, as you can see here, we have a spectrum of opinion among we denizens of the region, from Watson Lake's assertions that other Canadians who do not have the funds to enjoy what we have here should either do without or make major life changes to obtain access to it to my preference for a short "open season" in BC, for ALL Canadian citizens. His opinion seems a bit too "commercial" to me, but, many here with friends and family in the guiding business share similar views.

While Watson Lake's history is a little off, as Columbus, with the possible exception of his unsubstantiated voyage with, IIRC, Verrazano, never came remotely close to Canada, he is, as I also am, a member of a founding pioneer Canadian family and has a right to his opinion equal to mine or any other Canadian citizen's. He could hunt with me as an "accompanied" guest here or with his son, who is, IIRC,a guide on the QCI...and BC offers THE most generous non-resident and foreign hunter accomodations of ANY jurisdiction in North America, so, he has no reason to complain,IMHO.

The whole "one sheep per lifetime" mantra is simply a "mask" technique used by GOs to restrict we resident's from access to OUR game and has buggerall to do with conservation, economics or sportsmanship. When was the last time you knew about a BC GO REFUSING to guide a wealthy foreign client for a second or third Stone's ram, RM Goat or Bighorn? WHERE do you think these heros in the SCI and FNAWS, etc, GET their seond and third "Grand Slams" from?

No, while I believe in self-restraint where harvest levels are concerned, this won't fly as a means to manage sheep or resident hunters. What WOULD work MUCH better and would ALSO address the cost issue that this thread is based on, would be an institution of a "draw system" with "preference points" for foreign hunters and, with a substantial fee to BC for so doing. I think this would work, probably tend to curtail the ludicrous increases in GO fees that have happened,( $9000.00 for a BLACK bear, geezuz murphy, we pay to have them shot as pests!) and allow for a GO industry here in BC...but,, one that is NOT actively seeking to curtail resident hunting as is now the case.

You really cannot separate this issue into component parts as it is too large and complex. I have no desire to hunt anywhere else and have invitations to Africa, but, I want to see more of the Yukon, NWT and maybe the Prairies and I want to share BC with my fellow Canadians. Some may choose to make inane and offensive comments about this, but, I just ignore these and use these discussions to learn and organize my thoughts and arguments so as to help defeat the enemy of BC hunters, the GOABC and the anti-hunters.

Is, Canadian hunting too expensive, well, only the "consumer" can really decide that and, given world population and urbanization trends, I doubt that these costs will go down much. If, there were the pressure of lower costs/revenues put upon those who support large-scale foreign hunting-fishing here, like Watson Lake, who knows, they might come to see that the commercial approach to this issue is not the best one and alter their support levels for this hunting when it no longer is of major economic benefit to them/their region.

Keep an eye out for the "eyecandy" in Africa, eh

quote:

Just to set the record straight.
There is no penned hunting (Big Game) in ALberta.
Not sure about BC.

Calgary Guy

I know of one in BC. The local indian band here will let you shoot a buffalo out of their penned herd for a reasonable sum.

Buffalo is ok but I prefer elk so I've hever bothered.

quote:

Originally posted by wlbc:

quote:

Just to set the record straight.
There is no penned hunting (Big Game) in ALberta.
Not sure about BC.

Calgary Guy

I know of one in BC. The local indian band here will let you shoot a buffalo out of their penned herd for a reasonable sum.

Buffalo is ok but I prefer elk so I've hever bothered.

Its not legal to sell hunts like that in BC. That said, there are a lot of bison ranchers that will sell you an animal on the hoof, and your welcome to remove it from their land on the hoof or in pieces.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:

We have an increasingly strong and FOREIGN-financed anti-hunting lobby here and they are now buying up GO concessions and preventing hunting in these, as much and in any way they can. These people claim to be "conservationists", however, they are really a "hit squad" for the burgeoning and often foreign-owned "ecotourism" industry.

I assume you're referring to the BC based Raincoast Conservation Foundation ??? Perhaps Greenpeace, founded in BC?

I realize that most of their funds come from foreign nations, mainly because there are only so many wackos among a paltry 33 million Canadians. You seem to think all evil done to Canada's wildlife and environment comes from foreigners. See above..........

I think that Canuck has it right, here and, WHO is ever likely to criticize an INDIAN for breaking a law concerning wildlife...never happen, unless we get some politicos who can grow a pair.......

I do know that those working, professionals in resource research/management for whom I have the greatest respect, Dr. Val Geist, for example, have often spoken out strongly against any form of "game farming" and, I hope that most Canucks also will always oppose this.

One of our major problems, though, is the disgraceful lack of funding for environmental research and management here in BC. This, plus the archaic attitudes of all too many people concerning conservation, has led to our current mess and it is bloody frustrating, to say the least.

I wonder, how many "trophy" Elk could we harvest from the entire Chilcotin, which USED to BE well populated with them, IF, we had the funding to do the transplants, predator control, range re-hab. and so forth that would re-populate that region with RM Elk, maybe some of the excess from Jasper and Banff?

But, it's like the foolish bans on hunting in our National Parks, just a total waste of a substantial yearly crop and for no sound biological reason.

BTW, Canuck, I am sure you know Jim Pojar or at least, of him. He is the "real deal" as an ecologist and a scientist I greatly respect. I see he is now calling for a HUGE increase in "protected areas" in the province to preserve "bio. diversity"....helluva thing for you foresters, eh?

Fellers,

I put Dewey on ignore long ago. Life is much better without reading his pathetic drivel. I can see that he posted, but can't (don't want to) read his posts. He wants to gun down native Canadians, thinks (hilariously) that since his ancestors have lived there since the 1800's that somehow he inherited some of their mojo or should retain some of their "rights", the list goes on.

Do what you want. However, life is short and time is precious. You might consider how much effort you put into try to "talk" to a fool on the internet.

As for high priced Canadian hunting: I could give a rip. Same as Tanzania, Spain, Alaska Griz, etc. If I can't afford it, I ain't going to go. If others can afford it, I'm happy for the country and outfitters who "earned" the money. International hunting may become a rich man's sport, but there's still South Africa, Namibia and New Zealand that appear to have very fair prices for the rest of us.

I have too much fun hunting in Montana to care and not enough money to go anyway.

I have two friends who have had excellent bear hunts in Canada and go back quite often. Seem like very fair prices. They've also done a native-run goat hunt in BC that were fair priced two years ago. Service was HORRIBLE but they got their goats.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Calgary Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Dewey,
Not sure if you have hunted Africa or not but it is not "shooting" unless you chose to make it so on a game ranch - the same type of game ranch found in BC or Alberta for pet elk and their like. Typically nothing is hunted at waterholes other than by bowhunters.

I agree with you on the sheep. That is a true hunt and adventure. Not my cup of tea but I did take a Dall last year in the Wrangells. My not-so-fat butt made it up and down the hills just fine and I packed the meat out. Again, fun but not my cup of tea. The guides were part time folks as you can only hunt a few weeks a year. They were qualified to do what they do but I see a different level of skill in Africa (outside of the game ranch hunters).

To each his own and I hope you all get the "required guide" business sorted out as a resident should be able to hunt anywhere he legally has access to.

In the meantime, try the Zambezi Valley for buffalo and see what you think...

Just to set the record straight.
There is no penned hunting (Big Game) in ALberta.
Not sure about BC.

Calgary Guy

there damn sure is in Sask., Manitoba, and Quebec. unless all the elk and deer ranches with booths at SCI were lying.

God willing we will keep that out of Alberta. We are still basicly clean.. Lets hope it stays that way.
Though we do have planted pheasant hunts and you can hunt Boars here on farms. I am sure some farmer would also allow you to shoot what ever farm animal he has for the right $$.
But no Big game YET!

Calgary Guy

Dewey, just back on line sorry. Just a little clarification re the horses for hunting statement of mine. Horses were great to get to the hunting area but much better to then back pack and fly camp. A lot of prime time seemed to be wasted getting horses ready. Have owned and used horses most of my life as a cattle producer here in Oz. Done my fair share of self guided tahr and chamois hunts in New Zealand over the past 30 years but would obviously not have your extensive mountain wilderness experience. I realize that not all guides are created equal and was just making a point from my limited experience in BC. Will not name the outfit I was with as it has changed hands and has become much more professional. Amazing what an injection of capital can do.

I respect your integrity in not posting info. that could damage the reputation of an outfit now in business who really had nothing to do with your unsatisfactory experience here. I am sorry that this happened as it is NOT "cheap" to hunt here and I am very pro "Commonwealth" interchanges of all types, hunting included. However, it IS a problem that does arise from time to time and our entire "guiding" system needs major overhaul to fix that and other issues, capital alone will not do what is needed.

I am not much of a horseman as we did not have access to hayburners in the region of BC where I grew up. I totally agree on backpacking, etc. and this is sort of my "specialty", but, when you have a Moose on the ground, nothing legal will work like horses!

It is really a question of the quality of the outfit that you book with; the big name costly GOs will see to it that you get what you pay for, including having the horses ready to go first thing in the ayem, but, even then, accidents happen, wranglers get "bushed" and " go on a drunk" and it is never a trouble-free process.

If, you are interested in returning to BC, I would be happy to assist in any way I can and this is a good time to do so. Elk populations in the southeast part of the province are higher than at any time I can remember since the '50s, Moose are coming along and the wild sheep are slowly declining, but, are still here in huntable numbers,while RM Goats are also declining and tighter harvest regs. are being implemented.

Grizzlies are exploding, Blacks are just a pest and Whitetail Deer about as bad with even Mulies doing not too badly. Cougars, Lynx, Bobcat and Wolf numbers are TOO high and hunting these is a real challenge and something I would like to see more of. So, come over, drink some REAL beer and thin out a few for us!

Thanks for the offer DEWEY can't beat local knowledge. Have a friend who is trying to get me to come with him for a sheep hunt (combo). The trip and experience I had in BC was not unsatisfactory from my perspective as I went with no preconceived ideas and was entirely new to guided hunting. Actually I had fantastic experience as it is what you make of the situation. However, I know that pretty much all of the clients were unhappy.

The problem with costs for BC hunting are two fold. One GO tags are limited and as tags are taken away they raise their prices as hunters want to come and shoot a grizz or a sheep.

Two, as Dewey has so kindly put it alot of these outfits are foreign owned so they are not original owners. To give you a bit of History, guide areas were given out 50-60 years ago and most were family run operations. There are only a few of these remaining. A guide territory gives you exclusive rights to guide there and come with a certain number of tags.

As these family operations began to get out of the business they started selling their guiding rights. Some of these guiding rights sell for millions of dollars, especially if sheep or grizz are involved. So now people are getting loans to buy guiding rights and they get these loans based on 15 sheep tags, and 5 grizz etc etc. Guiding rights can sell for millions becuase if you do the math 15 sheep tags at 25,000 a tag ends up being 375,000 a year. So now if your tags start to disappear via cuts to tag numbers, your million dollar business is no longer worth a million becuase you have no sheep tags to sell.

Thats why hunts have gone up, the industry has moved away from one run by families who enjoy the life to one of a corporation that needs to make XX ammount to keep investors happy.

Another thing is guys are willing to pay the big money to hunt here, be it to get a grizz or to complete their sheep slam.

If you think Stone prices are high have you checked what a california bighorn goes for. Some outfits are getting close to %50,000 for a cali. Why becuase there are rumours that it may be added to the Boone and Crockett club and become a 5th part of the Sheep Slam. Who are these guys buying these tags, its the guys that probably already have their slam and want to stay cool amongst their sheep buddies.

BHB

Dead on, BHB.

The first time I hunted bear north of BC with Sentinel Mountain Safaris, grizz tags were available OTC. In 2003, tags were allocated by the area. If I recall, there was only ONE allocated for the entire area the second time I hunted that year. And SMS didn't get it; another outfitter did.

So SMS was relegated to black bear only for the spring season. As a consequence, he had to raise those hunt prices to make ends meet after he lost the revenue generated from spring grizz hunts.

The amusing part:

I bought a grizz tag the first hunt, but saw only two small ones. I passed on both. I didn't have a tag the second time, but had a huge silver-backed boar and a sow feeding in the open less than 100 yards away from where I was glassing for blacks. Would have been slam-dunk shot!

Tony, et. al.

About a month ago, I was on the phone with Leif Olson, co-owner of Stone Mountain Safaris, one of THE TOP GOs in BC. He is from Oregon and he and his wife now reside at Toad River, on the ranch that another Oregonian and they have as part of the SMS operation. Leif, whom I have spoken with before, is a hell of a nice guy and seems ideally suited to the GO's life....which is NOT that "easy".

He was telling me that there may well be an increase in the Grizzly tags available to "non-resident aliens" through the GOs this coming season. I would hope so, as the G-bear population in the north has grown like Couch grass and needs some thinning.

So, for those who want one, the future looks pretty good and while I SERIOUSLY doubt that there will EVER be any real decline in BC hunting costs and there WILL be major restrictions on it, a hunter from another country can probably find a "deal" and get his trophy.

I would look at a RM Goat plus G-Bear hunt and shop around for what "deals" exist and you should get a shot at a decent bear.