Can someone please tell my how glocks trigger safety is supposed to work. I cant see how it does. If something is going to cause the gun to fire accidently because something touches the trigger, how is the safety going to work.

If you press on either side of the trigger, the gun will not fire. Its basically so if you drop the gun or if the trigger area snags on something, it shouldnt go off.

It needs a good pull, square to the trigger face to go off (i.e. a finger).

Its not fool proof, but its a neat feature.

-Spencer

It was placed there to get import points with the BATF. It is the min. safety that they could put on. The pistol is not surpose to have a safety but to get it imported here they had to put some type of safety on it.

Joe 45
I also have wondered about this. I am a 1911 fan and can't understand why the Glock claims this is a safety. It is the same as a double action revolver, put your finger on the trigger and pull it, it will fire. I have never seen any one with a DA revolver claim it has a safety. IMO a safety is to prevent the firearm from discharging should one accidently touch the trigger.

Joe, thats just it, it is not actually a safety, at least I don't consider it one. Glock has more lawsuits pending against them than any other firearm manufacturer. Glock pistols used to come in a plastic molded box with a round stud that stuck up in the middle. That stud went inside the trigger bow. As you could guess, a loaded weapon put in the box, it would discharge. Its a bad design that should be replaced. I am a 1911 fan, and no glock will do. However I do alot of trigger jobs on glunks, mostly for cops. They all have awful triggers. But, all my hatred for the glock aside. Noone can argue that they will shoot. I have never seen a glock that wouldn't shoot extremely well. I just don't like em.

Chad

Sooner How are you doing the trigger job on the glocks.

Glocks have as good or better safeies than a double action revolver. Where are the lawyers jumping on S&W, Ruger, et. al. for their lack of external safety?!?!?

Hate Glock all you want, the pistol is safe enough. Nothing is foolproof...even the vaunted 1911 (the anti-Glock). Maybe we should be like Canada and require our handguns to be in a safe and unloaded, with ammo in a different safe!?!?!? Will that make the idiots safer?

There's more to safeties than trigger pull safety. Personally I dislike trigger lock safeties in a personal protection firearm...Glock designed in several drop/impact safeties and that has merit to me, but saying that a design is unsafe because there is not a switch that disables the trigger mechanism is a bit silly IMO...especially in a firearm designed to be brought to use in a minimum abount of time during times of personal danger and otherwise carried in a holster!

Sorry for the rant, but topics like this annoy me. Yes I like Glock's design, and feel that it is as safe as one should have to make a handgun. Any more is counterproductive to its intended purpose. Learn your weapon and handle it safely!

I am with Sooner,Chad.

To me, a Glock is a revolver without the wheel, only usually with a crappier action.
Like a revolver, they are inert until something goes into the trigger guard.

They do have a purpose but for the life of me I can't think of what it may be except for LEOs who have been undergunned and under trained.

Still I think my main objection to the use of them in any real personal defense strategy is in the problem of weapon retention and this is a very valid concern.
It's a fact that more LEOs have been killed with their own weapons than anything else. This is because historically they have been issued handguns such as revolvers and now things like Glocks that have no safety.

I may be wrong in my thinking, but most defence work is at very close quarters, and in a scuffle and the handgun in question has a true mechanical safety, there is the remote possability that you may have a heart beat of time should you loose control while the bad guy is fumbling around. With a wheel gun or something like a Glock, you loose that possability and your only hope is that the sod can't hit you with your own gun. Of course, with a hicap Glock, he has a lot of tries.

I too have tuned many Glocks but consider it more along the lines of gift wrapping a potato.

I'm sure many will disagree and these are just my thoughts on the matter.

Don

I thought most of the accidental police shootings were because of the 3 1/2lb trigger pull. Some were purchased at 5lbs and still the regular policeman wasnt used to it. In my opinion, its a perfect law enforcement weapon. We went all these years with police carrying wheel guns and this gun is no different safety wise. Improper training has 95% to do with the "accidents."

I'm not talking about accidental shootings.
I'm talking about where the bad guy takes your pistol either out of your hands or your holster and shoots you with your own weapon.

When I said that more cops have been shot with their own weapon this is what I mean.

There are no accidental shootings. Negligent shootings yes, but no accidental shootings. If someone was shot unintentially, this is negligence period.

 In my opinion, its a perfect law enforcement weapon. We went all these years with police carrying wheel guns and this gun is no different safety wise. Improper training has 95% to do with the "accidents." 

This is my point. It isn't for the above reasons.

Don

The 3.5 lb trigger is not standard on the glocks the 5lb one is. One can also get the NY. triggers in 8 and 12lbs.

Glocks only supplys the 3.5 for target guns. Not saying someone did not put one into a duty weapon.

Cops have been getting shot with their own weapons forever mostly because it is the only gun on the scene at the time.

level 2 and 3 holsters go a long ways to stop this. Weapon retention training also helps a lot.

The main trouble is most cops don't give a shit on maintaining a skill, and physical level enough to get them out of a bad spot.

My dept went to glocks 2 years ago. I harped on safety during the training. And so did the other instructors. Well last summer we had a officer take of his little and ring finger on his left hand. How soon they forget to drop the mag eject the chambered round lock the slide back check the chamber again. POINT IT IN A SAFE DIRECTION THEN PULL THE TRIGGER.

So we retrained the whole bunch again. We showed them and had them propery feild strip.

By policy they are surpposed to feild strip and clean once a month or after they fire their weapon.

I was amazed how many didn't remember how to feild strip. (or maybe I wasn't)

When I hear about a unintentional discharge in a dept now days it is all most always a glock.

It is because glock now days has 90% of the police marget Or because they are to simple.

I tell every one pull the dam trigger and if there is a round in the chamber it is going to fire.

I have carried all most all types 2in to 6 inch double action revolvers to single action type simi autos 1911's, browning hi powers to double action only autos.

I have taught hundreds officers how to shoot. The main trouble with them is most don't give a dam. Years ago most new officers had some firearms traing before they were hired. We are getting people into police work now that have never even handled a gun before they come to the academy.

Is the glock worse or better then the rest maybe maybe not. I have found that they are a very simple and useful pistol.

Some times I think too simple for some.

For some reason at my local PD, the all got 3 1/2lb triggers. It wasnt 2 weeks before one guy shot himself in the leg. I think they sent the whole batch back for 5lb triggers.

In the academy I was in, you have many guys thinking they are the "breakroom sniper." They can shoot a fly off of shit at 300 yards. The only problem is, these know it alls cant shoot good enough to hit the target @ 25 yards. Too much confidence too little skill...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think a P.O. is far more likely to be shot while fumbling with his own safety (lack of practice as mentioned above many times, stress under fire, etc.) than saved by the bad guy fumbling with his commandeered gun's safety.

Personally, if I am ever in a situation where stinky stuff has hit the fan, the side lever safety is just one more thing to potentially FU and get me killed.

I know of at least one case where a officer was shot because he had is safety on.

Policy stated to keep safety off use it only as a decocker. Well on his time off he would engage the safety and leave it in the on position.

Well the next time he went to work he for got to take it off. Drew his gun on a bad guy and nothing happen.

Due to lack of personal training not dept. Because they always trained to have safety off he was shot. He was wounded in the leg off work for some time.

He hadn't trained himself enough to realise what the trigger pull felt like with safety on to know what the trouble was.

There is pros and cons to both systems. One has to train in the system one choses to the point that it becomes natural.

Over all the years that I have carried a personal fire arm. The biggest requirerment is not that it shoots little tiny groups. But that it shoots each and every time I pull the trigger.

Can you say Springfield XD. Has a couple added safety features over the Glock. As a common saying goes, Springfield outglocks the glock.

I like the XD's grip design better. The safeties on both are more tan adequate, after all, revolvers have no sfeties. It's all between your ears guys.

Joe,
If you touch a loaded, one in the chamber, Glock trigger, it will fire! Its made that way. You've can see the debate above on this issue. Because all you must do is depress the trigger, not pull it through like a revolver, it is less than accurate to say that it has the same level of danger as a revolver.

The Glock is a good, reliable and accurate pistol. The Glock requires a degree of training to prevent "accidental" (see discussion above) discharges. I like the Glock, I have a Mod 23, but because I am not in law enforcement, if I carry it, I don't chamber a round. This is the same "condition" I carried a 1911 in most of the time. It takes very little effort to and time to jack a round in the chamber, certainly no more than trying to get my 38 out of my pocket.

A Glock with one up the pipe is not a pistol for your pocket or stuck in your pants, not if you want to hang on to all your parts.

I haven't been paying attention, but has Glock adopted a model with a "double action only" or "double action" trigger? Either of these options would be a nice feature for those persons who like the pistol generally, but have issues with the safety or lack thereof.

I find the trigger on my Glock 22 to be shorter but just as heavy a pull (maybe more) as the one on my S&W 66-2. Both are factory triggers, BTW.

I really have a hard time with deciding between one inthe chamber or not on mine. In the end, I deceded that the proper holster and technique makes condition 3 carry unnecessary.

In my own case, deciding which pistol to carry and staying with that ONE is the most important "safety".

I always use my Glock 20 as a "carry" gun these days. When I added up all the features (ample power, high cap, no side safety to remember to switch to "off", really visible fixed sights, a factory-supplied hard plastic holster which absolutely prevents putting the trigger finger on the trigger when fully holstered, etc.) it convinced me to stick to the Glock).

Back when I used to carry whichever pistol suited my mood for the day (S&W 645, 1911 Gov't 45, SIG 220 .45, Walther PP .380, Benelli B-76 9m/m, various caliber S&W revolvers, and so on), I was always at least partly having to waste time thinking through what I needed to do to make the gun a working tool if & when I had to draw my weapon.

I have found that glock is the way to go for me. Have owned 1911, and I did not care for it as a practical pistol. Just does not suit me. Not saying glock is better than other pistols just The one I like the most. But hey, guns are like women, If the deal is good I am gonna take it home. Cheers and go to the range or hunt this weekend, at least once. Cheers-Ben

Safety is indeed between the ears. Under duress the handgun should assist the shooter in safe conduct and the ability to hit the target, once that course is decided upon.

When minimal training is given, available or enforced, it is irresponsible to allow/issue anything other than double action only handguns. It must then be accepted that this lack of training, or lack of interest in training, combined with the level of difficulty in placing the first shot accurately and quickly, will result in loss of life and injury of personnel. This is the price you pay when deploying unskilled persons equippied with inferior equipment.

When good training is given and certification levels are high, single action handguns, carried cocked and locked, cannot be beaten for placing the first shot quickly and with accuracy. This is what wins gunfights.

The following quote is from the FAQ section on the IPSC website and is about what is allowed in the production class:

"3. Can I use my 1911 style SA pistol in Production Division?

No. Single-action (1911) style pistols currently dominate Open, Standard and Modified Divisions. Production Division was created to accommodate all other styles."

Note that Glock is allowed in all classes, they just can't compete where hitting fast and accurately is paramount. Kind of says it all.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Safety is indeed between the ears. Under duress the handgun should assist the shooter in safe conduct and the ability to hit the target, once that course is decided upon.

When minimal training is given, available or enforced, it is irresponsible to allow/issue anything other than double action only handguns. It must then be accepted that this lack of training, or lack of interest in training, combined with the level of difficulty in placing the first shot accurately and quickly, will result in loss of life and injury of personnel. This is the price you pay when deploying unskilled persons equippied with inferior equipment.

When good training is given and certification levels are high, single action handguns, carried cocked and locked, cannot be beaten for placing the first shot quickly and with accuracy. This is what wins gunfights.

The following quote is from the FAQ section on the IPSC website and is about what is allowed in the production class:

"3. Can I use my 1911 style SA pistol in Production Division?

No. Single-action (1911) style pistols currently dominate Open, Standard and Modified Divisions. Production Division was created to accommodate all other styles."

Note that Glock is allowed in all classes, they just can't compete where hitting fast and accurately is paramount. Kind of says it all.

Since hitting fast and accurately is paramount to surviving a gunfight, it seems odd to me that the Glock (or H&K USP) work just fine in real life, on the bad guys. Perhaps it is only IPSC 'games' that they are not too good at?

Cheers, Dave.

I taught defensive shooting for 20 years (1976 to 1996) to the public as well as LE personnel. I stopped competing in IPSC in 1995 when I started using bi-focal glasses. I am very aware of what works on the street and there is a direct link to what also works in IPSC Standard and Modified Divisions as far as equipment goes. The IPSC games are a joke when it comes to tactics and movement but the part about hitting fast and accurately, from the holster or drawn and ready, is very much applicable to the street. IPSC Open Division bears no resemblance to reality in any way and is a sport, pure and simple.

Take the trouble to research LE shooting reports. The ones that were resolved swiftly, with few shots fired, with DA handguns and Glocks, are a small percentage of the total. The opposite is true where the sidearm used is a SA semi-auto. One must take into account that users of SA sidearms are better trained as a group, compared to DA/Glock users and this reflects in the results on the street. Therein lies the lesson: Those who take things seriously choose the right tools for the job. Those who don't, try to use what is issued.

The biggest problem with the Glock comes after the incident, while standing down or cuffing/following up. No one should holster a Glock one handed, while distracted. It is a recipe for disaster as we have seen so many times. It is frequently not practical or possible to unload before holstering because the other hand is occupied.

Teaching "safety on - holster" with a SA auto is a lot easier and much more successful than teaching "mind you don't touch or snag the trigger while holstering - stay focused until the handgun is holstered". The norm with LE personnel is to carry DA/Glock with the chamber empty and to rack the slide on drawing. If the hot DA/Glock is holstered without incident, there is a potential further problem, when it is drawn and unloaded after the fact with adrenalin stil up and distractions rife. In most instances, a Glock holstered with a round chambered is an uncommon condition. Uncommon equipment conditions are to be avoided under stress. Why invite disaster twice when "safety on - holster" with a SA auto is so simple?

The Glock and H&K USP are not the same. The manual of arms is completey different and, given the choice, I would choose the H&K over the Glock every time.

Gerard,
Things must be different in your part of the world. I don't know any cops here who don't have a round chambered all the time. It costs precious time to try and rack a round while your adrenaline is up. If the gun's gotta come out, it needs to be out and ready to fire right now, you've got all the time in the world to put it back in the holster...it all basically comes down to being well trained, familiar with your equipment, and keeping your damned finger out of the trigger guard unless you need it to go bang!

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
I taught defensive shooting for 20 years (1976 to 1996) to the public as well as LE personnel. I stopped competing in IPSC in 1995 when I started using bi-focal glasses. I am very aware of what works on the street and there is a direct link to what also works in IPSC Standard and Modified Divisions as far as equipment goes. The IPSC games are a joke when it comes to tactics and movement but the part about hitting fast and accurately, from the holster or drawn and ready, is very much applicable to the street. IPSC Open Division bears no resemblance to reality in any way and is a sport, pure and simple.

Take the trouble to research LE shooting reports. The ones that were resolved swiftly, with few shots fired, with DA handguns and Glocks, are a small percentage of the total. The opposite is true where the sidearm used is a SA semi-auto. One must take into account that users of SA sidearms are better trained as a group, compared to DA/Glock users and this reflects in the results on the street. Therein lies the lesson: Those who take things seriously choose the right tools for the job. Those who don't, try to use what is issued.

The biggest problem with the Glock comes after the incident, while standing down or cuffing/following up. No one should holster a Glock one handed, while distracted. It is a recipe for disaster as we have seen so many times. It is frequently not practical or possible to unload before holstering because the other hand is occupied.

Teaching "safety on - holster" with a SA auto is a lot easier and much more successful than teaching "mind you don't touch or snag the trigger while holstering - stay focused until the handgun is holstered". The norm with LE personnel is to carry DA/Glock with the chamber empty and to rack the slide on drawing. If the hot DA/Glock is holstered without incident, there is a potential further problem, when it is drawn and unloaded after the fact with adrenalin stil up and distractions rife. In most instances, a Glock holstered with a round chambered is an uncommon condition. Uncommon equipment conditions are to be avoided under stress. Why invite disaster twice when "safety on - holster" with a SA auto is so simple?

The Glock and H&K USP are not the same. The manual of arms is completey different and, given the choice, I would choose the H&K over the Glock every time.

Gerard, my comments were not intended as a dig at you, or any L.E.O. I can find no fault with your statements about relative training levels, etc. But some people may not be able to tell the difference between 'games' and fighting for your (or someone elses) life.
I believe the Glock is fine as a Military firearm, but sadly misused as a LE tool.
I have taught 'Officer survival' for the better part of 15 years, and find either a DA revolver, or any, reliable self loader with an exposed hammer and safety or decocker, or DAO with an exposed hammer to be far safer to the user than any striker fired handgun.
I was initially taught (as have all of my students) that when holstering the handgun, to place my thumb over the hammer (after decocking if a self loader). This will let the operator know if the trigger is snagged on anything, as the hammer will start to move back.
With an SA self loader, safety on, holster. It doesn't get much simpler.
Where I feel the Glock does shine is as a sidearm for the military, who typically carry in condition 3 anyway, unless in SF. Robust, reliable, the manual of arms is fairly straightforward, and easy to teach.
JMHO.

Cheers, Dave.

Long Carbine,
You are right about having one up as opposed to having to rack the slide when the chips are down. Problem is that holstering does not always afford one the luxury of time. It is when holstering under pressure that things go pear shaped with Glocks. The further problem with Glocks is the absurdity of getting shot with your own sidearm if it gets taken away. I know of several incidents where a decocker or SA cocked and locked bought precious time through confusing the attacker. Regrettably, with Glocks and revolvers, this does not happen.

Sambar 9.3,
No dig perceived or imagined. I just find my hackles rising when the subject of Glocks come up. I do not recall who, but someone said: "All the logic in the world is useless against a piece of stupidity that is currently in fashion." That sums up my opinion of Glocks nicely. I thank the Lord that I have not had one injury in class but the heart stopping incidents were absolutely dominated by Glock users.

Gerard,
I'll agree that the Glock is not the best choice for a LE sidearm. Dependable as hell, I'll give them that, but otherwise there are much better choices out there. I'd take a Sig, 1911 or another pistol with a little more than a trigger safety. It seems that the majority of negligent discharges that you hear about occur with the Glock, because of the trigger safety as well as the fact that you have to pull the trigger to disassemble it. I for one am partial to Sigs, and I like the fact that when you're field stripping the gun, you've got to lock back the slide before you can take it apart. Same with the Springfield XD, which also has a grip safety in addition to the Glock-style trigger safety. For those people that are hell-bent on carrying Glocks, they need to train hard make sure that they've got the muscle memory there to safely handle one when things do get heated. I guess it's kind of a double-edged sword. You want a gun that's simple enough to go off when you need it to, but complex enough to briefly confuse anyone who might grab it away from you. Bottom line, if someone's trying to get your gun, fight as dirty as you have to to make sure they don't!

LongCarbine, the issues raised in the weapons retention aspect of this discussion are why, regardless of whatever fancy self loader was fashionable at the time, my carry gun, when working armed, was always a S&W model 13 3"BBL with a Magna Trigger conversion (done while Mr Smith was still running his operation on the west coast). So that if I did loose control of the sidearm during a scuffle, no-one but me could make it go bang.
I still think the Glock is an excellent sidearm for the Military. However I remain convinced that someting with an external safety or decocker, an exposed hammer, and possibly a magazine disconnector safety (it can give you a chance, if you look like losing your gun, drop the mag).
If I had to nominate one self loader to carry instead of my revolver, it would be someting like a S&W (9 or 40 single stack mag as I have small hands) DAO, with the external safety catch replaced. And Trijicon sights fitted.
JHMO.

Cheers, Dave.

All things considered, Glocks are probably THE best law enforcement pistol out there. Why is is that about 90% of cops carry Glocks? Why is it that Springfield, Smith & Wesson and others have made pistols that imitate Glocks (XD, Sigma, M&P)? What did most cops carry before Glocks were born? They carried revolvers. Why? Because they are simple, easy to shoot, reliable, and cheap. I think 1911's are the coolest pistols out there, but many cops do not shoot as often as many of us do... They shoot when their boss says they have to for qualifications, so they should have a simple, safe, easy to shoot pistol. Everybody has their favorite pistols, but anyone who thinks Glocks are more dangerous than other pistols is full of shit. Needing extra muscle memory to handle a Glock in a gunfight? What about the muscle memory to take off a thumb safety, or to remember to have a proper grip to engage the grip safety? What the hell is a Long Carbine anyway? Probably a term you learned while working that summer job on that ranch on Brokeback Mountain. Jackass.

Gerard, I think that quote is attributed to Diogenes, I recall reading that he used it, not sure if he originated it.

LongCarbine, Yep, practice, practice and then practice some more. The key to most firearms handling safety issuse, I believe.

MrHawg, In order to find out who LongCarbine was, I suggest reading 'Last of the Mohicans".
BTW, I think you will find most accidents with the Glocks happen during the transition period from the previous sidearm, regardless of what that sidearm was. This seems to be the pattern, at least according to my research on the matter.
JMHO

Cheers, Dave.

What I have seen when unintentional discharges with glocks.

People failure to keep the trigger off the trigger. Many have shot themselfs in the legs I belive when reholstering.

Most users do not take the time to train after they are trained most get the pistol go through their training and thats it untill the next mandated training sesson.

Like I have said the glock is simple some times I think too simple. Most law enforcement officers are not gun people most don't care to train more then they are forced too.

The crip safety was added onto the 1911 just because with out it there was to many unintentional discharges.

What is the andwser I don't know I am a big fan of double action revolvers if on can get the job done in 5 or 6 shots they are great. If one needs more I'll take a hi cap auto loader.
New York pd went with heavier trigger pulls on their glocks for some that could be the way to go.

During training I have seen officers do stuip things with all sorts of firearms.

If we can fix this we would all better off.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
What I have seen when unintentional discharges with glocks.

People failure to keep the trigger off the trigger. Many have shot themselfs in the legs I belive when reholstering.

Most users do not take the time to train after they are trained most get the pistol go through their training and thats it untill the next mandated training sesson.

So what you are saying p dog, is that with other pistols it is an accepted practice to keep your finger on the trigger while holstering?

Actually, the GLock has three safety devices. A trigger safety, a firing pin safety, and the safety function of the trigger mechanism housing. The gun won't go bang unless you pull the trigger.

I would have to disagree with a lot of the Glock bashing on this post. In a stressful situation, the last thing an officer needs is to be fumbling around with fine motor skill functions (snapping off safeties, removing the gun from decock, etc), when essentially gross motor skills are all that can be utilized quickly and safely when adrenaline and stress are controlling an officers system. A guy jumps at you with a knife or gets out of his car with an uzi, screw that shit...grab the glock and start fighting. Too simple is what you want in a gun fight.

I don't think there are any more "shooting's in the leg" or "accidents" by officers that there ever has been. When 90%+ of LE agencies carry GLocks, that is what the majority of the accidents will be with. Kinda like if 90% of the earth drove BMW's, BMW's would make up the majority of wrecks. Would they not be safe anymore?

A glock is one tough hombre to beat as the hands down, no nonsense, easy to use, ass kicking firearm around.

MG

MrHawg,
You ask a number of questions which I will attempt to answer.

quote:

Why is is that about 90% of cops carry Glocks?

Because the Glock reps sell harder than the opposition. They sell hard to the people who make the money decisions and the tech guys just shake their heads. It is called Politics.

quote:

Why is it that Springfield, Smith & Wesson and others have made pistols that imitate Glocks (XD, Sigma, M&P)?

Because they also see that: "All the logic in the world is useless against a piece of stupidity that is currently in fashion." and they are following the money to survive in a tough market.

quote:

What did most cops carry before Glocks were born? They carried revolvers. Why? Because they are simple, easy to shoot, reliable, and cheap.

You having supplied the answer, I can only ad that revolvers are a much better idea if the sidearm is going to be carried by badly trained personnel. At least you can see when the hammer is cocked and even the biggest doze will know to decock the thing before holstering or running around trying to subdue bad guys one handed.

I found this beauty in an article on the Sigma compared to the Glock:
"Both the Smith and the Glock wear no external safety levers, except for the safety integrated into the trigger itself, which must be deliberately pulled to fire the weapon."

What is not said in the article, is that it will also fire if the trigger is pulled inadvertently.

It has been said that the trigger safety will prevent the Glock/Sigma/XD from firing if side pressure is applied to the trigger. Well, a revolver, 1911, Browning Hp and just about every other handgun I can think, of will also not fire if side pressure is applied to the trigger and they don't have trigger blocking contraptions at all. Also not said is that you do not need a finger to pull that trigger blocked safe action nonsense back. A holster strap or flaslight belt strap or spare mag sheath will do it. A goblin trying to wrestle it away from you can do it, even chucking it into a bush can do it.

When you say: "They shoot when their boss says they have to for qualifications, so they should have a simple, safe, easy to shoot pistol.", why do you endorse the Glock in this respect? It may be simple and it is too dreadfully easy to make it go bang, but hitting the target with one is far from easy, compared to a wide variety of other handguns. After all, hitting the target is the objective, not so. As far as safety is concerned, a Glock is just about impossible to discharge by throwing it around, driving vehicles over it and all manner of other torture tests. The trouble starts when you put it into the human hand.

p dog shooter your views are right on the money. Just one thing, the grip safety on the 1911 is intended to prevent ADs if the pistol is lost from the hand, with one up and the safety off, as could happen in combat. Primarily, it prevents the trigger from moving back and tripping the sear if the pistol is dropped muzzle up.

Madgoat,
Reported by Massad Ayoob in either G&A or American Handgunner in the time NYPD started using Glock: Four times as many Glock users shot themselves or others unintentionally than all other gun types put together. At that stage, only a quarter of the force had converted to Glocks.

Maybe I shoud stop beating around the bush and just state that I don't like Glocks or any of the clones of this "solution to a problem that does not exist."

Sambar 9.3,
Nice to see that someone else on this forum has read one of the classics. MrHawg, might do you some good to spend some time at your local library (that's a place where you can find books, ya hillbilly). I do see your point about muscle memory, and I guess I should clarify. If you're going to be using any firearm under stress, you should keep training with it until handling it is second nature, and then train a lot more. As far as Glocks go, you're either a Glock guy or you're not. I personally don't like them, I think the grip angle sucks and the gun is uncomfortable in my hand. I know they're reliable and tough, but I still believe there are better LE firearms out there. Nice Brokeback Mountain reference, those never get old!

Madgoat what Iam saying is that with some other hand guns. It is harder to pull the trigger. A doulble action revolver some double action simi autos ect.

Finger off the trigger is a great idea and one that I teach but what we have seen is that is doesn't always happen.

So if you know of a way to teach people that really don't care and are not as deicated as other to always do the proper thing Iam willing to listen.

I guess they'll figure things out pretty damn quick when their gun goes off when it's not supposed to!

Can someone show me any double action pistol that will NOT go off when some stressed out, undertrained grunt shoves it into their holster with their finger in the triggerguard? DA revolver, SA/DA pistol, DAO pistol, striker fired, whatever, and a grip safety won't stop that either.

I ask, if the grunt can't keep their finger off the trigger why do you think they can switch the safety on?

I have to side with the "fine motor skills are useless under duress" point above. Just about the only thing 99.9% of the world (cops and soldiers included) are able to do quickly and reliabily under fire is draw, point, and pull the trigger.

The crack about being harder to get hits with a Glock than other pistols...that's hard to swallow to say the least. At pistol fighting range they are PLENTY easy to get just as many hits and any other duty grade pistol.

Glocks perfect? No. Perfect is a pistol with bio-ID that will only function for the shooter, bad-guy-ID that will only go bang when pointed at a bad guy who is milliseconds from killing you, and video recording to show the court that it was all justified. All for under $500ea. Now for the real world...

That's odd that people should say that the trigger of the Glock makes it harder to get shots away. My G19 currently wears a NY+2 trigger assembly (about 10lbs break) and is just as easy to get accurate first round hits with as any of my DA revolvers.
I think perhaps some may have lost sight of the fact that we,on this forum, are all firearms or hunting enthusiasts, and such probably shoot more in a year than the average cop will in a lifetime.
As CDH said nothing is perfect, but training is the key!
JMHO

Cheers, Dave.

CDH
Thats beside the trigger stroke on double action revolvers and simi autos is a bit longer to dropping the hammer then the shorter stroke on a glock. Gives them a bit of more time to realize that they maybe doing something stuip. One would have to shove it into the holster farther to get it to go off.

A lot of revolvers holsters one finger never touchs the holster when putting the revolver into it. Most simi holster do.

Take a empty glock and a empty double action put your trigger in the guard and holster each and see what dry fires first.

You seem to be taking my arguments as anti glock they are not. They are as I stated before a simple very reliable pistol. But do a little research and you well discover lots of unintentional discharges with them.

A lot of them are not even done under stress.

One of the reasons for that is the short trigger stroke.

Most cops shoot only when forced to and do not take the time to train properly.

Actually p-dog, most semi-auto holsters would not allow for the finger to be touching the trigger while holstering.

Cops are trained not to have their fingers ON the trigger unless they are going to fire the weapon. I still don't buy this unintentional discharge deal. I do know back a few years ago they had some problem with Kydex holsters that would cause the gun to misfire, but that had nothing to do with a guy's finger being there...just poor plastic holster engineering.

Also, any cop who doesn't take firearms training seriously, or consider the grave consequenses for their mistakes, should not be in law enforcement.

MG