Whats the heaviest hard cast bullet that can be stabilized in a 7.5 inch Freedom Arms revolver, trajectory is not an issue as I wont shoot game much past 50 or 60 yds. Thanks for any advice.....Jerry

Jerry

I have never had a 454, but I seem to remember a 335gr bullet that shot good in a friends 454.

IIRC, one of the folks around here took a cape buffalo at 110 yards, with a 360 grain Corbon Penatrator out of an FA.

Thanks Men, I currently shoot 335 gn LBT's with pretty good accuracy, wondering about the 390-400 gn slugs for max. penetration on grizzles. Will be using 454 for a bear tent gun....Thanks

Ross Seyfried loaded 360 grain LFN's at 1550 fps
in 45 Colt, for 38" of Cape Buffalo. Yes, about 60K plus pressure.

You might look here for penetration results:

http://www.handloads.com/misc/...enetration.tests.asp

It appears that bullet deformation is more important for penetration then velocity.

Punch Bullets 310 grain seems to be the penetration king, even when other bullets are pushed faster.

Might look at the 45-70 rifle stuff as well.

Best bet would be to contact FA, and ask them.

I suspect they will say don't, since the 454 won't have much room left for powder, and, I wonder with a bullet seated that deeply how they will chamber?

Max loads in 454 are about 1250-1331 fps.

I think that's well worth trying. Wouldn't want to get hit with a 400 grain bullet keyholing, either...

If you really want it to penetrate, I'd contact someone like Punch bullets, and have a monometal solid made, or, Hawk bullets.

Thanks GS, will do....JM

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Thanks GS, will do....JM

Let me know what Bobby Boy says about the bullets stabilizing.

I'd love to know how your project works out.

Also, RobGunbuilder might be able to turn some .454 monometal bullets for you. Not cheap, but, you could get enough to feel comfortable, and practice with lead.

Do you know anyone that is making the 395's Hodgdon lists in their ballistic tables?

Cast Performance

I don't know if they will stablize but at least they have data.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Whats the heaviest hard cast bullet that can be stabilized in a 7.5 inch Freedom Arms revolver, trajectory is not an issue as I wont shoot game much past 50 or 60 yds. Thanks for any advice.....Jerry

There are formulae for calculating the spin rate/twist rate for bullet stabilization.

A Google search revealed a bunch from which to choose.

http://search.netscape.com/sea...llet%20stabilization
or if the link does not work, paste this into your browser
search.netscape.com/search/search?&fromPage=NSCPToolbarNS&query=bullet%20stabilization

one of which is the Greenhill formula:
http://www.geocities.com/capit...by/1221/grn_hill.htm
or:
geocities.com/capitolHill/lobby/1221/grn_hill.htm

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

I've shot 370 grain CP bullets with great success out of my FA M83.

Soungs like the real deal, (390gns @1400fps) should send real not welcome to old ursus should he poke his noggin in my tent....Thanks Men, will order some 395's from CP. Got 8lbs of w-w 296, that outta do it...Jerry

quote:

Max loads in 454 are about 1250-1331 fps.

Go to FA's website and check out their load data for the 300JFP...

Went back and fully read a friends load, 1400 fps w/ a 395 CP was done in his T/C encore, no bullshit I just didnt read his complete report.

The 1:24 twist on the FA is a problem for hardcast. I talked to Bob Baker about this myself in person at a hunting camp Here in AK.
He said a 350 gr. LFN works just fine then I told him that according to my test they did'nt.

I may just be to big of a stickler for accuracy but I find the best recipe for my FA .454 is a 300 gr hornady XTP mag. I've shot one pig and a couple of deer with this load and it has what you need for bear protection.

As far as hard cast in other .45 cal revolvers my 45 colt redhawk shoots my 375 WFN's very well and has every bit the same energy at bear range as my .454

AKshooter, Do you think that XTP would hold up on a bear @ very close range? Its funny you mention the twist rate, I hate to admit it but my Freedom 454 will not shoot hard cast slugs near as accurate as my S&W 500. May have to clean the 454 real good and work up a jacket bullet load...Weren't the old speer uni-cor .452 300gn flat points pretty tough?...Thanks Jerry

Why Freedom chose that slow twist rate is beyond comprehension, but remember that Dick Casull was with them for a long time and he always envisioned the .454 launching light-weight bullets at high speeds. I had a Ruger SRP in .454 with the same slow twist rate, and it liked bullet weights up to 360 grains but I pushed them to around 1,500 fps. I even used 400 grain WFNs and ran them between 1,300 and 1,400 fps and while accuracy was fine out to about 25 yards, beyond that, groups started to open up. I took the hog in my signature with a 400 grain ,454 and it was DRT. 335 grains or thereabout might be optimal with that twist rate.

You might want to post this in the handgun hunting forum as there are a lot of big-bore handloaders that hang out there.

Whitworth, my guess on the slow twist would be to get max speed w/ acceptable psi. May lood at shootin 300 gn jackets and see what happens, although I really hate to...Thanks.....Jerry

We have ruin some 370grLSWC from my friends FA w/ very good accuracy to 50yds. I'm not sure you really need more mass than 300-325gr though. In a hard cast bullet, they penetrate like crazy. I run 300grLFP in my 45colt @ 1000fps & they penetrate further in wetpack tha 400grSP from my 404jeffery, very impressive. ThAt is my backpacking-in-bear-country load.

quote:

AKshooter, Do you think that XTP would hold up on a bear @ very close range?

Yes for sure. I've even shot a hog with the 250 gr. xtp (non mag) and had the bullet hold together at 1800 f.p.s.
I also hate to use jacketed bullets in a revolver but I have just resigned my self to the fact that is the way F.A. M83 .454 was desinged. I'll say that the M83 is probably the most accurate revolver when shooting jacketed bullets but still not as accurate as a hardcast in any other good revolver.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Whitworth, my guess on the slow twist would be to get max speed w/ acceptable psi. May lood at shootin 300 gn jackets and see what happens, although I really hate to...Thanks.....Jerry

I think there is a point of diminishing returns with every caliber, and I'm not convinced you really need more han about a 335 grainer out of the Casull (hardcast of course). If a person really feels they need a heavier bullet, they should step up in diameter as well. Thos 300s should work well.

Thanks Men, found 4 boxes of speer 300gn plated flat points, I think those are purdy tuff, the old 454 is gittin de-leaded in the shop. I'll load a healthy dose of 296 under em and see what happens....Jerry

Keep us posted, Jerry. Would like to hear how the load development goes. Hey, when you start playing with loads, post up in the handgun hunting forum. I think you'll find more big-bore reloaders over there than here (no offense to anyone here, just playing to an audience that may be more into it). Good luck!

Whitworth, Gotta ?, if the freedom arms will shoot 300gn jackets w/ good accuracy, would it not shoot 300 hard cast good also, and if so do you rec a good bullet? the cp I found looks to long crimped in groove...Thanks...Jerry

Here is a 50 yd group shot off sandbags with the bullet mentioned above. My FA 83 sports a Leupold VXIII 2.5-8x32 handgun scope so sighting is not a problem. This is as heavy a bullet as I've tried in my casull but they seem to stabilize just fine.

Jerry

You want the ultimate bear gun, it's NOT a 454. For 500 bucks, last time I checked, Jack Huntington will convert your 454 to either .475, or .500 JRH.
This gives you cast LFN's at pretty much max in the .475 of 420 grains, and, they penetrate like crazy, or, the 440 grain 500JRH loads, that will go 5-6 feet of buffalo, as will the 420s.

Jack's got a barrel machine, so, he kind of has a LOT of experience turning barrels for Freedom Arms quality guns. You might ask Jack where he got the barrel machine, and, what the former owner did with it.

The other consideration is having FA convert the gun to .475 or .500WE, but, I'm not recommending that, and, don't know if they will do it, or, for how much.

I do recognize that the heavy bullets are really attractive for the 454, and, I'm taking my data for speed off the Hogdon website, so, it maybe possible to load it faster, and suffer a ton of recoil.

I suspect Hornady's 400 grain .475 XTP load at 1350 fps out of my gun would go through around 4-6 feet of bear. Heard it will go through both shoulders on a good sized elk, and keep going.

You might consider it...

By the way, the ULTIMATE custom is a FA that's been reworked by Jack. With a custom trigger, target accurate barrel and cylinder, it will shoot like this,



if you can.

My pillow in 475:

Greg, Jack will perform that conversion at right around $1,400.00........

I agree, that bigger is better. My favorite caliber is .475 Linebaugh, but in all of my testing, that 400 grain XTP has penetrated all that well -- adequately yes, in most cases, but my 420 grain WFNs will leave 'em behind! I wouldn't use that bullet on a big bovine. With a .475 or .500 caliber bullet, there is just no real need for expansion IMHO.

FA will sell you a new gun and won't convert. The .454 is a fine caliber, I just don't like pushing it to the max velocities and instead focus on finding the most accurate load.

I agree that there is probably no finer custom than an FA that has been thoroughly gone over by Jack.......

Nice group, what is the distance? Jack built my .475 and it will shoot way better than I am capable of! He's building me a .500 Linebaugh as we speak and I can't wait to get that thing in my mitts!

Juggernaut76, Damn good shootin w/ the heavy load,....... GS, I got a 500 S&W, its a big goofy gun w/ the 8+'' barrel and not very practical or packable, but full power loads w/ the 440 CPs' pack a hell of a WALLOP...Oh yeah GS, Damn fine lookin iron there...Jerry

Have had no problems with the 535's grouping from Ranger Rick, though the recoil is tough.

The 395 and 360 cast Performance also were fine.

In general though, I load 335's.

As I stated in my previous post I have never had a 454.

However I have studied the calibre. It was originaly designed to shoot normal 45 cal bullets [250/260gr] at high velocity to help in making hits at longer range.
Heavy Cast bullet people found it would shoot bullets @335grains pretty accurate as well.

If I wanted to shoot heavier bullets than that I would get a 475 Linebaugh.

That is what I did.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:If I wanted to shoot heavier bullets than that I would get a 475 Linebaugh.

That is what I did.

Amen to that. There is a point of diminishing returns.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Juggernaut76, Damn good shootin w/ the heavy load,....... GS, I got a 500 S&W, its a big goofy gun w/ the 8+'' barrel and not very practical or packable, but full power loads w/ the 440 CPs' pack a hell of a WALLOP...Oh yeah GS, Damn fine lookin iron there...Jerry

HI Jerry

Don't see that big of a fuss. Your FA should weigh about 3.2 pounds. My .510 Max, with a 7.5" barrel weighs 3.6.

So, given your desires, I'd chop the barrel down to shroud length on the 500 S&@. I'd put smaller grips on it. Then, I'd shoot Jacks' 500 JRH ammo out of the gun. It will give you .475 results, with a slightly bigger bullet, and, you won't have to do anything but buy .500" bullets for your .500.

To be real, my .475 will take a either huge shoulder rig, or a Puller center of chest rig.

With a shorter barrel on the .500, it might even fit in a belt holster.

The recoil of the .500JRH ammo, the lower end, is about 25% of a 44 magnum. The full house stuff is going to be about the same as the standard 475 430 grain bullets, at 1350 fps, or, 38 ft lbs in a FA 83. In your bigger gun, slightly less.

That's plenty, unless you run up on the biggest grizzly of all time that wants to eat you...

Tom had one built:


Course you could always buy a BFR in .475, and have it's barrel chopped. That's one of the all time great deals.

And, Tom also had a BFR long cylinder made into a 50-110...


That group was about 25 yards. The gun should shoot one hole with proper loads, Jack did,
420 grain lfn's vusing V110, IIRC, and, cloverleaf at 50 yards.
I'm not that good, and, don't know many rests that can take 38 ft-lbs of recoil.

Problem solved.....Thanks Men,....I simply added 4 gns more powder behind the 335 CP, vel is 1564fps and very comfortable to shoot. Dont know if its the extra speed (more spin) or the compression of powder or a little of both?..load is dead on @ 25yds and off short sticks prints just under 2'' @25...Thats the best I can shoot off sticks.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Problem solved.....Thanks Men,....I simply added 4 gns more powder behind the 335 CP, vel is 1564fps and very comfortable to shoot. Dont know if its the extra speed (more spin) or the compression of powder or a little of both?..load is dead on @ 25yds and off short sticks prints just under 2'' @25...Thats the best I can shoot off sticks.

Even if your game is wearing kevlar, that should do the trick...

GS, Yes, game on the grill....

My guess is that load would go through about 3 feet of brown bear. By the way, I found a pretty neat holster, the Thomas Perfectionist, for my 7.5". I can sit and pull the 7.5, provided I have a REAL heavy gun belt.

If your gun doesn't have a barrel band, or if the barrel band doesn't extend out of the holster, it's a great setup.
http://www.kramerleather.com/p...tID=14&categoryID=23
http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpst...dingHeavyweights.htm

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
My guess is that load would go through about 3 feet of brown bear. By the way, I found a pretty neat holster, the Thomas Perfectionist, for my 7.5". I can sit and pull the 7.5, provided I have a REAL heavy gun belt.

If your gun doesn't have a barrel band, or if the barrel band doesn't extend out of the holster, it's a great setup.
http://www.kramerleather.com/p...tID=14&categoryID=23
http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpst...dingHeavyweights.htm

GS

You have discovered the SECRET of carrying a BIG HEAVY handgun, a good holster and a sturdy heavy belt.

Also since I carry inside the waist band quite a bit I buy ALL my pants 2" bigger in the waist.

You guys with the FA 454 that want to shoot a cast bullet might try a 250 to 260 Keith SWC or a WFN type bullet.

The original Freedom Arms 240/250 jacketed bullets were very stoutly constructed, especially in the jacket, and in area of the base, so the high pressure would not cause the bullet to slug up and damage the forcing cone.

I purchased some Magtech 260gr jacketed flat point 454casull ammo ,it has more recoil than the sw460mag ammo so at a shot show I asked a magtech rep what powder were they using,he said it's a propriatory powder from the company that loaded their ammo.I didn't learn anything and can't replicate the load.

GS, very nice rig, I use a left side crossdraw w/ my 454 to clear bow while huntin here on the farm in case I run into a bear, hog or big mountain kittie. Thanks for the photos.........HE 450 No2, the best I can tell that 335 CP @ 1560fps zeroed @ 25yds is still dead on @ 50 yds off sticks, groups cluster nicely around 3". Thats more my fault than the revolver, as I am more of a rifleman.