I currently own a Sig 239 9mm and it is loaded with cor-bon and mag-safe hollow points. Does a .40 caliber have that much more stopping power that it's worth buying a new pistol? I have been hearing that the 9mm is a weak round and too small.
I also need advice on a pocket revolver. Any thoughts?

Perry,
There may be those that disagree, and that's OK, but I'd say that the 357Mag and .40S&W are in a league by themselves at the top of the heap. They will both toss lead at high enough velocities to get some shock even with heavy bullets that will penetrate and break things.

The 45ACP, 44Special and 45 Long Colt are right behind them when used with appropriate bullets. They are slow and heavy and good at breaking things. They are big enough that they don't have to expand.

The small 38's and 9mm's all have roughly the same stopping power using good bullets. Their great advantage is concealment. Most all of them (32 to 9mm Luger) will get about 62-68% first round stops with hollow point ammo. You have to be more accurate, but they will work.

If you hit a person in the right spot with any of them, you will quiet them right down.

If you like you Sig, keep it. Inside the house the bullets you are using are OK, but outside, I'd like to use something a little stouter and perhaps mix them, one corbon then a FMJ. You never know what you may have to shoot through to get at your target.

The best pocket pistols I've seen are the Kaltec, the Tom Cat, and the S&W Centenial Airweight. These are all small and shoot a cartridge that is meaningful. I have a Tom Cat and S&W. I really like both for concealed carry. They are both accurate and function reliably. The Kaltec looks and handles nice, but I have not fired it or carried it. Kudude

kudude: If your sure you don't mind! The one shot stop ratings you give coincide a liitle closer with 9mm FMJ. 45ACP also, for that matter. The best hollowpoint loads in 9mm exceed 90%.

peeryd: That is the key with 9mm: Load selection. I'll spare ya'll the history lesson, but a number of years ago there was no +P in 9mm and none was needed. SAAMI reduced the pressure rating and then ammomakers introduced +P loads that were nothing more than loads at the original pressure rating of the 9 X 19mm. 124 gr. +P JHPs from SPEER and Black Hills, both using SPEERs excellent Gold Dot bullet would work well in your 239 without a need to trade it for anything. The only way that a .40 S&W travels faster than these loads is with 135 gr. Bullets, so you have momentum and kinetic energy increased by a 9 grain advantage.

Any pistol round 9mm or larger with a good performing JHP will get the job done. With 9mm it is best to get all of the velocity you can to make that JHP work so that the KE is high enough to transfer shock. Expansion and penetration are key to all of the popular calibers. Personally, I feel pretty comfortable with 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 S&W or .45 ACP. There is a pretty significant difference between the best .38 Special +P loads and the best 9mm +P loads. The KE of the 9mm is higher by about 100 Ft/lbs.

To determine the KE of any caliber, multiply velocity times velocity, or velocity squared times the weight of the bullet in grains. Then divide by 450436. This will give you the KE of a bullet in Ft/lbs.

I always feel that a 40 is what I think a 9 should be. 9's always seem like a popgun

If you were looking to buy I'd say go .40, since you have the 9 already stick with it. Ammo selection will make up any difference. As far as the pocket revolver I like the Taurus .357, five shot, can use .38's for practice. I've worked on Charter's older .38, not as nice. Smith and Wesson and Ruger make nice small revolvers but are more expensive.

What you really need to do is read HANDGUN STOPPING POWER and SREET STOPPERS by Marshall and Sandow.

They gives one a very good idea on what works and what does not.

Thanks I'll take a look.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
What you really need to do is read HANDGUN STOPPING POWER and SREET STOPPERS by Marshall and Sandow.

They gives one a very good idea on what works and what does not.

Really, todays JHP rounds from 9mm up are all going to perform about the same w/ center mass hits. It really comes down to the pistol platform you like. I like bigger bores, just makes me feel better but all handgun rounds perform pretty much the same, an 88% vs a 92% vs a 95%, basically you need to put rounds in the right spot, period.

KLN,
It been a while since I read the book, but my recollection of the data is that all handgun bullets smaller than 44 and 45 calibers, rated in the 60-65% range of first round stops with the exception of the .357Mag and its number ran in the 90%++ range. The 44s and 45s did somewhat better than 65% with blunt nose but not with round nose ammo, but not near the .357Mag percentages.

At that time, the .40's were new, and the authors opined that based upon the limited experience with them on the street and the similarities with the bullet weights and velocities of the .357Mag, they'd predict similar performance. I think their observations on the 40s have proven out.

Since then, there has been work on improving the 9mm loadings, and I am certain that with good bullets it would perform better than it was performing back then. There was only one way to go, up, because many PD's were requiring FMJs and there was the infamous FBI subsonic fiasco which lead to the .40's ultimately.)

I think that the bottom line is that first, it is where you hit 'em, and second, what you hit 'em with. Regarding the first determinant, you want a central nervous system hit or gut shoot 'em. Regarding the second determinant you want something that will open up lots or makes a big hole to start with. Kudude


PS: I was looking at some footage somewhere recently of guys shooting things with all kind of weapons and bullets, and hollow point bullets are still having a expansion problems when they hit something that "clogs" up the hole. They will over penetrate and underexpand when filled with wall board or clothing. Kd

Lots of "what if's" in every shooting. sometimes the same round can appear awesome and other times not.

Just last fall I worked with a shooting in which the 16-year-old male victim was seated in a recliner watching TV. The bullet was shot from behind him, entering the top of his skull just behind the crown, and exiting his forehead, just very slightly left of and above his right eye.

In looking for where the bullet came to rest, at first there was more than a bit of trouble finding it. It was finally located about 6 feet BEHIND the victim and about 2 feet to his left. Careful crime scene examination showed a tiny smudge almost dead center on the TV screen itself, where the bullet had bounced off after passing through the victim. Did not damage the TV screen's usefulness at all.

Edited to add: forgot to tell you, the weapon was a Glock 40 S&W.

Do you know what type of bullet fmj, hollow pt if a hollow pt what brand and what bullet. and what weight.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Do you know what type of bullet fmj, hollow pt if a hollow pt what brand and what bullet. and what weight.

I would have to get back to the file to confirm, but IF I can recall correctly, it was a Speer Gold Dot. I do not recall the weight of bullet or brand of ammunition at all.

It probably makes absolutely no difference given good bulelts in each cartidge.

However, not having a .40 is an excellent excuse for buying a new pistol.

what kind of tv was it...?

I knew someone who shot a tv [didn't know it was loaded !!] with a 44 mag - instant 1 shot kill !.... The 9mm with +P loads is very good .In any case the most important thing is bullet placement !!! I prefer the 40 which I find [on live animals] to be the same as the 45 , I like big holes.

quote:

Originally posted by scubie02:
what kind of tv was it...?

Still functional.

I missed the pocket revolver part at the end of the original post. Thought I'd throw out that S&W just discontinued the 431/432, which is the j frame they made in 32 H&R mag, which I really like, so might want to grab one of those while they are still around. Nothing wrong with the 38's either though. I have both. If you're going to carry in the pocket, the hammerless models are probably the best bet for absolutely not hanging up on anything, but otherwise a hammer is nice for the single action option.

quote:

Originally posted by scubie02:
I missed the pocket revolver part at the end of the original post. Thought I'd throw out that S&W just discontinued the 431/432, which is the j frame they made in 32 H&R mag, which I really like, so might want to grab one of those while they are still around. Nothing wrong with the 38's either though. I have both. If you're going to carry in the pocket, the hammerless models are probably the best bet for absolutely not hanging up on anything, but otherwise a hammer is nice for the single action option.

Yes, and if you're carrying a 9m/m "duty" piece ordained by your department, a S&W 940 makes a real nice little backup. Use the same ammo in both.

I think the best, finest 2" 38 Special revolver ever made was the Colt Detective Special--6 shots, smooth action, and +P capable. I do think the 158 grain LSWC/HP might be the best round in the short-barrelled 38 wheelers, too. LOTS of argument on this subject for sure, though.

I prefer the 40S&W over the 9mm, but I don't feel that much under gunned with the 9mm. I just sent my Browning Hi-Power to Ted Yost to have him do some work on it. Of course it has 13 round magazine, so there is still a lot of fire power available from most 9's.

My current carry gun is a Glock M-27 (40cal).

Kudude Thanks for the help! I ended up buying a Glock 23 and I love it. It's lighter than the Sig with almost twice the capacity and larger rounds. What is the FBI Subsonic issue you were talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
KLN,
It been a while since I read the book, but my recollection of the data is that all handgun bullets smaller than 44 and 45 calibers, rated in the 60-65% range of first round stops with the exception of the .357Mag and its number ran in the 90%++ range. The 44s and 45s did somewhat better than 65% with blunt nose but not with round nose ammo, but not near the .357Mag percentages.

At that time, the .40's were new, and the authors opined that based upon the limited experience with them on the street and the similarities with the bullet weights and velocities of the .357Mag, they'd predict similar performance. I think their observations on the 40s have proven out.

Since then, there has been work on improving the 9mm loadings, and I am certain that with good bullets it would perform better than it was performing back then. There was only one way to go, up, because many PD's were requiring FMJs and there was the infamous FBI subsonic fiasco which lead to the .40's ultimately.)

I think that the bottom line is that first, it is where you hit 'em, and second, what you hit 'em with. Regarding the first determinant, you want a central nervous system hit or gut shoot 'em. Regarding the second determinant you want something that will open up lots or makes a big hole to start with. Kudude


PS: I was looking at some footage somewhere recently of guys shooting things with all kind of weapons and bullets, and hollow point bullets are still having a expansion problems when they hit something that "clogs" up the hole. They will over penetrate and underexpand when filled with wall board or clothing. Kd

I think you will be very happy with the Glock 23 in 40 S&W. It's a good caliber in a proven platform.

I try to stay clear of these 9mm vs. 40 vs. 45 debates, because they generate a lot more heat than light. I'm not acquainted with the "controversy" surrounding the 9mm sub-sonic round, but the caliber has been controversial since it landed in the USA in great numbers following WWII.

If there's a "problem" with the 9mm in my view, it is that most of the ammo loaded and sold in the USA in this caliber is about 15%-20% under-loaded from its full potential. The load adopted by the USA's using services is "full potential"--125 grains at ~1250 FPS--it just lacks a controlled expansion bullet. With good bullets, the 9mm as loaded in Europe is closer to the 357 Magnum than to the 38 Special in terms of "paper yield"--and about midway between the 38 Special +P and 357 Magnum, given bullets of equal weight.

Frankly, I don't give a lot of weight to "paper ballistics". All these formulae that try to calculate/predict ballistic performance depend upon squaring some element of the ballistic equation--velocity, frontal area, or bullet weight--to arrive at their "conclusion". You pays your money, and you takes your chances.

I think all three calibers can do good work if fed good ammunition and deployed competently. My SIG-Sauer P-226 carries Speer +P 124 grain Gold Dots--these do a righteous 1220 FPS from its 4" tube. I also carry W-W SXT's in my 40 S&W and 45 ACP's--180 and 230 grains, respectively. 40 S&W SXT's go about 960 FPS from a 5" Beretta, and about 925 FPS in a 4" S&W 4006. I REALLY like the 45 SXT--several 5" barrels I've fired them through run them out at 900 FPS, around 870 FPS in the SIG P-220's or Commander-length Colt tubes.

Which one is carried most? Being retired now, any armed confrontation I can't avoid will happen with me as solo operator--so the 9mm gets the nod. "Serial Mozambiques", until the threat is resolved. My heart says "45 ACP", but until I land a Glock 21 or CZ-97 I'm going with volume.

I would also recommend the Glock 23. I have the Glock 23 & 27 (both 40 cals) and what I like is the 23's clip can be used in the 27.