anyone know if their any good? see them on tv.
thanks

If we are talkin out here in Fantasy land Southern Nevada... there might be better alternatives. Lots of litigation going on over that one.

Invader, what about Thunder Ranch?

I went to Front Sight back in the early days when they were using a range near Bakersfield, California. Pretty small operation in those days. My course was directed by Chuck Taylor and Nash Piazza themselves. It was good in those days, I have no idea what the Nevada operation is like. I have also been to Gunsite in Northern Arizona, had Louis Awerbuck as my Course director. I had a great time, had dinner with Jeff Cooper, hung out with a couple of the instructors who were also staying in Prescott. I think Gunsite is still a very good operation. As for Thunder Ranch, I hear very good things but I have never attended one of their courses.

I haven't either, Wink, but they have a solid rep and pretty convenient for Invader66. Mt Home, TX, just west of Kerrville.

quote:

Originally posted by KLN357:
I haven't either, Wink, but they have a solid rep and pretty convenient for Invader66. Mt Home, TX, just west of Kerrville.

I didn't realize there was still a Thunder Ranch in Texas. I thought Clint Smith had packed his bags and gone to Oregon, where the new Thunder Ranch takes smaller groups (and it's more expensive!)

Thanks, What legal deal is going on out there?
I will see if TR is still in Texas as I to thought they left. Front Sight has a special on
so needed some info.

Guess I've stayed away from the gunrags too long. I didn't know a thing about it. Quite a bit of money was spent on construction at TR, so if it's vacated, it won't be for long. Sure sounds strange that C. Smith would invest that kind of money and then walk away.

Blackwater always interested me a bit because most of its instructors are former Spec-Ops. Good number of SEALs and Force Recon, if their not all in Iraq!

I have not been playing close attention to the legal problems mentioned in the local papers. Not something I should speculate any further on, heck the problems may have been solved! Call them and ask.

Here is a link to Thunder Ranch Oregon:

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

It may be that the installation in Texas has been bought and is operating under another name now. But, in my humble opinion, I would pick my training based on who is going to be your rangemaster/course director, not on how big or how nice the physical facilities are. Of course, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite and Front Sight all have excellent facilities so there aren't too many risks in that respect.

Would add that several of the well know instructors freelance and travel. If for instance you want to train with Louis Awerbuck (and I found my training with him to be excellent) then you can call his Texas agent and arrange to reserve dates when Louis is in Texas. By the way, Louis is one of the great shotgun trainers. Here's a link giving the Texas and other contacts;

http://www.yfainc.com/schedule.html

quote:

Originally posted by invader66:
Thanks, What legal deal is going on out there?
I will see if TR is still in Texas as I to thought they left. Front Sight has a special on
so needed some info.

Hey invader.

I just looked at FS and TR websites
Prices have really gone up.

If you haven't tried it yet I always suggest
finding a IDPA or USPSA club before jumping into those tactical $chool$.

Spending a day with one of those clubs top shooters, one on one, is worth more than 3 days in a class of 5 to 10 at a Shooting College.

quote:

Originally posted by COOL:

quote:

Originally posted by invader66:
Thanks, What legal deal is going on out there?
I will see if TR is still in Texas as I to thought they left. Front Sight has a special on
so needed some info.

Hey invader.

I just looked at FS and TR websites
Prices have really gone up.

If you haven't tried it yet I always suggest
finding a IDPA or USPSA club before jumping into those tactical $chool$.

Spending a day with one of those clubs top shooters, one on one, is worth more than 3 days in a class of 5 to 10 at a Shooting College.

I'll add to what Cool says, if you are a relative newcomer to defensive pistol shooting then you could benefit immensely from a local IDPA in the areas of pistol manipulation and some of the basic techniques, saving your hard earned money on the Louis Awerbucks and the CLint Smiths of the world when you feel capable of absorbing the tactical advice they can give.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wink:
It may be that the installation in Texas has been bought and is operating under another name now. But, in my humble opinion, I would pick my training based on who is going to be your rangemaster/course director, not on how big or how nice the physical facilities are. Of course, Thunder Ranch, Gunsite and Front Sight all have excellent facilities so there aren't too many risks in that respect.

Well, I certainly wasn't recommending TR based on the facilities, or future consideration because of them. I do find it odd that CS walked away from it and moved to Oregon, but I'm sure he had his reasons.

I'm one of the people that believe that shooting games have very little to do with combat shooting. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the gamesmanship and almost ridiculous power factor requirement of 165 for .45 ACP. The best defense loads in .45 are no where near this low, and then IDPA tells you that you can't shoot a .40 S&W in custom pistol. What is the difference at 165 PF? To me, IDPA should be renamed the Bill Wilson pistol association, because when you get to the root of things, marketing his own products has always been his main goal. I'd go IPSC here, but what are you really doing other than target shooting on the move with some ideology for cover thrown in. If you're not shooting combat realistic ammo, how are you training for defense? In either case with any competitive drive whatsoever, would you want to lose at either?

Never went to GunSite because I didn't want to hear how carrying any other pistol than a 1911, was the wrong choice. Tap-Wrap-Bang has always seemed a little illogical in light of a DA trigger pull that will ignite a faulty primer at least 95% of the time.

Wouldn't have ever gone to FS while Chuck Taylor was there. I've read enough of his dribble that if I had to attend a course where he was teaching, I think I'd want them to pay me! This guy has experience of one actual gunfight as far as I can tell. He had to shoot a VC in Vietnam with his 1911 and decided at that point that it was the best defensive pistol in existence. What if he had shot the VC with a .22 and had the same result? I've seen him talk about the vicious recoil of a .357 Magnum revolver with a 125 gr. JHP factory load.

I wish I'd been fortunate enough to attend one of Jim Cirillo's courses. he has more actual gunfighting experience than most of the others combined. Because of that, if I were going to spend that type of money, I'd be looking to attend a training facility that has instructors with more than theoretical philosophy. Blackwater, at least, has some guys that have seen the elephant.

KLN357,

You know, that Jeff Cooper bias toward the 1911 pistol didn't really seem to be present when I was at Gunsite. In fact, I don't think anybody really cared what you were shooting as long as you could shoot it well. In fact, the loaner guns for people who cannot bring a weapon with them are Glocks. As for the requirement that your trainer has to have killed or wounded someone in a gunfight to be credible, this may apply at some of the higher levels of training but for some looking to acquire basic skills I doubt if it makes much difference. Better have someone who is a good analyst of what you are doing wrong and a good enough teacher to be able to explain well how to fix it. In fact, a better yardstick for how good a teacher is "How do his former students come out in a real world combat", rather than how many the teacher has survived.

Wink: JC definitely mellowed with age. It was in the mid to late 80s when I thought about going and people I know who went before then had told me it was probably best to take a 1911. Not that this mindset is or was exclusive to Jeff Cooper anyway. You can run into it at any number of schools, and even with some guys that administer CC licensing. Of course there is a certain amount of satisfaction to be had by shooting a perfect score with a DA. Do it with a DA .45 and they might even say something nice about your pistol.

So, what pistol did you use when you went? Might have had something to do with your perception of things.

Not that I have anything against cocked and locked carry either. My CZ 75 B in .40 has been so accurate it is beginning to see more use than the P-345. I shoot mine first shot DA, but even if you carry C&L, there is still some comfort factor in knowing that you have second strike capability.

Maybe I have my own bias, but I know that SEALs have been using SIGs since the 80s. I can't think of many others that get as much trigger time. Or, could care less about what you choose as your PDW so long as it works 100% of the time. Delta and DET 1 get as much TT now I'm sure and Delta got a lot of their early training from the British SAS, who also use the SIG. If I had to travel, it would probably be to BlackWater.

I'm sure it helps for those that have gone, but the reality is always going to boil down to how well an individual reacts in a crisis and deals with his own adrenaline surge.

If a guy decides the money is better spent on shooting at the range to develop concentration and precision shooting, I can't say I could argue with that ideology, so long as the ammo is appropriately matched to his carry load.

KLN357, I went to Gunsite in 2001. They let me borrow the Gunny's 1911, if I remember it was on a Caspian frame, and it worked just fine. But on a firing line of 12 there were only five 1911's. There were a few Glocks, two Sheriff's deputies with issue pistols (I think they were S&W's) and one SIG 226.

Nowadays I shoot my CZ75B in 40 S&W about the same amount as my S&W 1911. It's funny you mentioned first shot in DA because this morning we tried some drills with first shot in DA. I was awfully slow of course because I don't train enough in that mode. Seems like you pull that trigger forever before the thing goes off. I really should practice more. But I say that to myself all the time about all my shooting.

You are of course absolutely correct about crisis management. And I think anybody who trains regularly comes to realize that staying functional in threatening situations is probably something you've got, or you don't. I like to think that when I'm frozen like a deer in the headlights I will at least rack the slide.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I'm one of the people that believe that shooting games have very little to do with combat shooting. Otherwise, you wouldn't have the gamesmanship and almost ridiculous power factor requirement of 165 for .45 ACP. The best defense loads in .45 are no where near this low, and then IDPA tells you that you can't shoot a .40 S&W in custom pistol. What is the difference at 165 PF? To me, IDPA should be renamed the Bill Wilson pistol association, because when you get to the root of things, marketing his own products has always been his main goal. I'd go IPSC here, but what are you really doing other than target shooting on the move with some ideology for cover thrown in. If you're not shooting combat realistic ammo, how are you training for defense? In either case with any competitive drive whatsoever, would you want to lose at either?

I agree with Wink here.
IDPA/IPSC are good for practicing your gun manipulation skills. For tactics you need training.

http://www.southernexposuretraining.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=232

We are fortunate to have SOUTHERN EXPOSURE NEARBY

quote:

Nowadays I shoot my CZ75B in 40 S&W about the same amount as my S&W 1911. It's funny you mentioned first shot in DA because this morning we tried some drills with first shot in DA. I was awfully slow of course because I don't train enough in that mode. Seems like you pull that trigger forever before the thing goes off. I really should practice more. But I say that to myself all the time about all my shooting.

Wink: this is the crux of the debate between SA and DA. I do a good deal of shooting with DA revolvers, and I do shoot them DA quite a bit. I find the difference between a S&W revolver and the 75 B about as close as you're ever likely to come with a DA autopistol. But that's me and part of that is a function of personal ergonomics. The long reach is a bonus for me in this case.

Practice is what it takes. Even if you had a primer that wasn't seated deeply enough to ignite and set things right with a follow up DA strike . . . well, I'm not going to do that just to clear the round.

I'm not having any trouble getting 5 shot rested groups 1" or under at 50'. 150 gr. NOSLER JHPs and LaserCast 170 gr. SWCs, btw. I broke the 75 in before I fired the first group offhand DA first shot. Up to that point, all of my offhand shooting had been done SA, along with shooting groups from a rest to work up a good handload. I did use the snap caps that CZ provides and did a lot of dry firing to break the trigger in, though. I shoot offhand at the same distance I rest from. Big surprise, since that's how our range is set up! But the first group with first round fired DA made a pretty fair 1.8" group, with that first round in the center of the group! Since then all of my offhand shooting has been first shot DA. You do have to practice it if you want success. One reason I suspect that so many shooters move on to 1911s, Glocks, or now others like the XD.

Those snap caps that came with your gun with the replacement rubbers that look like pencil erasers for the primer pocket, will be a great aide. Dry firing in DA mode will help greatly.

In case you're interested, the powders I'm using are Ramshot True Blue and Silhouette. Rem and Win brass and CCI-500 primers. 1.125" for the 150 gr. JHP and 1.130" for the SWC.

I believe Chuck Taylor is still active in the teaching business. His base of operations has been north of Paulden. Do a search on his academy and you can get all the contact info. He was also one of Jeff Cooper's Range Masters at Gunsite. All those named are good instructors but I feel Chuck Taylor is still one of the best at getting you to shoot well with the least amount of time and ammo.

Chuck is definitely still active. This last fall he did his annual trek to Switzerland and even added a week in France. He taught at the Tir National de Versailles for a week in October.

KLN, as far as Delta goes, when the recruiters come around the Army bases, their videos show operators using only 1911's (they didn't say anything about it tho).

When in Iraq of late, the various Special Guys had a mix of various Sig's and 1911's. They didn't talk much. Had to be better than the issue M9 on my leg, that thing could hardly stay in the tombstone at 25 yards.


As to Clint Smith, hasn't he been on Shooting USA lately? Or was it Shooting Gallery?

Most of them carry, 1911s, sputster. I was referring to the SAS using SIGs like the SEALs and didn't distinguish very well. I have heard of a few Delta carrying Hi-Powers, but I don't know how valid that is. It may stem from the SAS who used the Hi-Power before they switched to the SIG P-226. SAS is what Delta was patterned after and got their early training from them as well. If you get a chance, watch the special features for the movie "Collateral" Tom Cruise looks a little too realistic handling his H&K USP in that movie, especially the alley scene. When I watched special features I found out why. They used a former member of SAS to train him with the handgun. Since I saw the movie and the special features, I like Tom Cruise a little better than before. He actually does pretty well on the range after the SAS man got him up to speed.

Marine Spec Op units use the 1911 as well.
I can't say that you'll never see a SEAL carrying a 1911, but the P-226 is what they're assigned as their PDW and selected team members get the H&K Mk23 for quiet time. Delta also. Their version can lock the slide in place which makes it a single shot when slide noise could be detrimental. Before they adopted the P-226, many of them carried the S&W 686 revolver in .357 Magnum. The DA auto wasn't a big transition for them.