I know that many of the members of AR seem to think that the French (unless they are members of this forum) spend their time prancing around in tights when not sipping coffee from tiny cups in sidewalk cafes. Well, not all of them. I recommend that those who might be interested check the link below for Eric Grauffel's web site. It turns out he regularly beats Americans in IPSC championships and has been the world champion a couple of times.

http://www.ericgrauffel.com/

When he wins for the seventh time in a row like Lance Armstrong I'll be impressed.

Éric Grauffel is a French sport shooter and firearms instructor with seven overall IPSC Handgun World Champion titles and one Junior World Champion title. He is known for having an unprecedented winning streak, and has won 191 IPSC President Medals. He is the son of the French national team trainer Gérard Grauffel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Grauffel

He’s a hell of a shooter.

No question about that. He’s definitely of the first rank.

I’d love to have him teach me some of what he does, but i’m so slow it probably would be impossible.

Too bad most of the European countries de facto limit participation. I also think that the IPSC has gotten pretty far afield from what it originally was. Similarly so has the US body (USPSA), but in different particulars.

The deemphasis of shooting on the move in Europe, the use of the so called classic (turtle) target, the deemphasis of power factor all are moving IPSC to becoming as relevant as Bianchi barricade or bullseye shooting to self defense. The multiple attempts by the PTB in practical shooting to get into the Olympic Games shows how they view it as a purely athletic endeavor in Europe.

A few years ago there was an article about an Italian Fencing Master circa 1930s. It seems that Mussolini appreciated the man's skills so much so to put a waiver on dueling for enough time to this master swordsman to impale his opponent. Oh well I suppose, nothing like good clean sport. (ALA Mussolini)

quote:

I also think that the IPSC has gotten pretty far afield from what it originally was.

CR I think I agree with you! I shot IPSC many years ago and had a lot of fun. It was meant to be "practical shooting" and was. Now you go in and start a major war! Now the de-emphasis of power factor I am not sure about. The USA is the only country on the planet, as far as I know, that worships the 45 ACP, which was unabashedly the basis of the power factor standard of 185 as I recollect. Now I have a 38 Super and 2 9x21's that both make major, and I can see them as a good alternative to the 45, especially with a comped gun. The "open"
classification in IPSC gave rise to a lot of innovations that have filtered down to production guns.
I enjoyed shooting Bianchi Cup as well, especially "the mover" which is a very unusual event.
So, starting from a holster, shooting fast, shooting accurately, fast reloads, shooting targets at varying distances etc. all adds up to a fairly unique set of skills that are also "practical". As to being in the Olympics, I seriously doubt it. I don't believe there are any Full bore Olympic events any more. With the many restrictions on firearms ownership and use, world wide, I don't see much support.
So, what obstacles did Eric have to overcome in France?
Peter.

Peter,

To me the deemphasis of power factor is more on the minor end. The .40 or bigger for major rule was all about avoiding yet another arms race. I started after the gamesmen had pretty much taken over the game, with the open division being predominant in that way. The original optic sights and comps were not at all practical, yet their adoption has led to some useful items. The higher capacity guns led to the warfare type stages to force folks to reload, yet the same tech is making service arms more effective.

I still play the game, and the types of loads the guys shooting production (minor PF) are using are really effectively recoil free and would not be particularly effective self defense loads.

The Europeans got the major power floor down to 161 for open now, although the US still keeps all major at 165.

Grauffel had to overcome a much more restrictive access to range time and firearms than we have here. That his father was involved in the game probably made him what he is, because (IMO) you need to start young to become a true top shooter.

IPSC/USPSA, IDPA, NRA action (Bianchi cup), CAS, bullseye, all do emphasize some skills that can be utilized defensively, but fundamentally they are all games that are not entirely translated to defense.

I enjoy all of them, compete in some of them, and can appreciate the mastery of skill M. Grauffel demonstrates consistently.

Wink is right in that there are some superb shooters in France, and I’ve hunted with a few French PH’s who have demonstrated considerable skill. It’s about access to the opportunity- and in Europe there is a lot less access than here ... now.

As to the olympics, the IPSC leadership had been consistently trying to get IPSC into the Olympic Games, and had made a number of changes trying to accommodate that recognition (as a temporary feature sport, not sure the terminology- like baseball was) but the active deemphasis of shooting in the Olympics and the political issues in many places effectively put the kibosh on it.

There were a lot of folks who didn’t appreciate the attempts to take what originally was intended as a crucible to test equipment and tactics for self defense into a stylized athletic game. It caused some rifts between the US and the rest of the IPSC. To my knowledge, these are not being repaired even yet today.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Peter,

To me the deemphasis of power factor is more on the minor end. The .40 or bigger for major rule was all about avoiding yet another arms race. I started after the gamesmen had pretty much taken over the game, with the open division being predominant in that way. The original optic sights and comps were not at all practical, yet their adoption has led to some useful items. The higher capacity guns led to the warfare type stages to force folks to reload, yet the same tech is making service arms more effective.

I still play the game, and the types of loads the guys shooting production (minor PF) are using are really effectively recoil free and would not be particularly effective self defense loads.

The Europeans got the major power floor down to 161 for open now, although the US still keeps all major at 165.

Grauffel had to overcome a much more restrictive access to range time and firearms than we have here. That his father was involved in the game probably made him what he is, because (IMO) you need to start young to become a true top shooter.

IPSC/USPSA, IDPA, NRA action (Bianchi cup), CAS, bullseye, all do emphasize some skills that can be utilized defensively, but fundamentally they are all games that are not entirely translated to defense.

I enjoy all of them, compete in some of them, and can appreciate the mastery of skill M. Grauffel demonstrates consistently.

Wink is right in that there are some superb shooters in France, and I’ve hunted with a few French PH’s who have demonstrated considerable skill. It’s about access to the opportunity- and in Europe there is a lot less access than here ... now.

I don't think restrictive access to range time or firearms has been an impediment to Grauffel. Once you are a member of a gun club recognized by the French shooting federation it is only club regulations and the hours of operation. There are many clubs in France which are open every day of the week, all day. And you can shoot at another club if the occasion arises. The number of handguns you can own is limited, but the limit is not so restrictive as to impede having what you need. Purchase of factory ammo is limited to 2000 rounds per handgun per year. This means you are pretty much obligated to be a handloader if you shoot competitively and practice like Grauffel does. The most restrictive limits are very recent, probably trickle down from EU regulations, but there is a limit on how much loaded ammuntion you can have in your possession (I don't know the number) but I doubt any French police authority is checking on how many loaded rounds a World Champion might have at home.

You may have noted that in Grauffel's winning column his last world win was in the standard division (fits in the IPSC box). This means mods are allowed on the handgun but pretty much eliminates race guns, and factory ammo; the ammo being provided by the event organizers. The point being that it wasn't a race gun with overloaded ammunition. Grauffel can shoot just about any semi-auto pistol better than anybody else. He has also won in the "Production" division. He is the only man to win an IPSC World Shoot in 3 divisions.

He does have a web site:

http://www.ericgrauffel.com/

quote:

There were a lot of folks who didn’t appreciate the attempts to take what originally was intended as a crucible to test equipment and tactics for self defense into a stylized athletic game. It caused some rifts between the US and the rest of the IPSC. To my knowledge, these are not being repaired even yet today.

When it was just a bunch of good ol boys getting together to improve their shooting.

Now that fame and money is involved it is a whole different matter.

I gave up IPSC when I got yelled at for reloading behind cover.

Games and rules can teach one many bad tactical habits.

Thinking about crbutler's comment about "access"; the main impediment to having a larger pool of people involved in the shooting sports here is the lack knowledge among the general public that they even exist. The average French citizen would be surprised to learn that you can legally own handguns and even further surprised that you can participate in organised competition with handguns involving speed. Most people in France think it is illegal, and I don't think I am exagerating on this.

There was a time when owning a shotgun and hunting in France was a popular past-time and shotguns were handed down from father to son. Outside of the major urban centers MOST men used to hunt, primarily wing shooting but also the occasional big game, meaning wild boar. Eurostags (or Elk) were a high budget hunt. But birds were accessible to middle class budgets, as were/are wild boar. This has all changed, not only with the urbanization of the country, but also because of media influence by intellectuals on the perception of firearms and hunting. The President's of France were defacto temporary proprietors of the hunting areas around "Presidential" castles like Rambouillet, Fontainbleau and Chambord. They used these castles for social events with foreign dignitaries which sometimes included hunting. This is no longer the case.

And French TV does not broadcast any sporting events with firearms, even if they include French medal winners, with one exception: Biathlon. Both mens and womens teams from France have excellent records at the Olympic games. But you will never see Olympic Trap on tv here nor just about any other major event. The last IPSC World Shoot was in France, but good luck finding any television shows willing to broadcast it, even if French competitors such as Grauffel get to the winners podiums.

And by the way the French National Shooting Sports Centre is probably the only range in Europe able to handle just about any international shooting event.

https://www.cntir.com/filesopen/brochure/CNTS-EN.pdf

Wink, from what I’ve read and been told, France probably has the most reasonable rules in Europe, at least as far as the old NATO group of nations goes (Scandinavia is pretty open as well)- not quite the open door policy the US has, but certainly more reasonable than UK or Germany.

To be honest, not that many folks know about these sports in the US, either, and of those who don’t, a bunch think they are “terrorist training”...

P dog, that reminds me of what Bill Jordan wrote about when involved in a firefight with Mexicans on the border, his buddy was carefully stacking his brass (only revolvers in those days) because he was a handloader. Cute.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
P dog, that reminds me of what Bill Jordan wrote about when involved in a firefight with Mexicans on the border, his buddy was carefully stacking his brass (only revolvers in those days) because he was a handloader. Cute.

Remids me of the.



Newhall incident

The Newhall incident, also called the Newhall massacre, was a shootout on April 5–6, 1970, in the Newhall unincorporated area of Los Angeles County, California, between two heavily armed criminals and four officers of the California Highway Patrol (CHP). In less than 5 minutes, the four CHP officers were killed in what became the deadliest day in the history of California law enforcement

Brass was found in the officers pockets,

That an the FBI shoot out in 86 and others changed the way police trained.

During a shootout at the beginning of the 80's, a French policeman was killed, he opened the cylinder after firing 5 rounds and looked down searching something on the ground, the bucket where he usually unloaded the spent cases at the range after each series...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Peter,

To me the deemphasis of power factor is more on the minor end. The .40 or bigger for major rule was all about avoiding yet another arms race. I started after the gamesmen had pretty much taken over the game, with the open division being predominant in that way. The original optic sights and comps were not at all practical, yet their adoption has led to some useful items. The higher capacity guns led to the warfare type stages to force folks to reload, yet the same tech is making service arms more effective.

I still play the game, and the types of loads the guys shooting production (minor PF) are using are really effectively recoil free and would not be particularly effective self defense loads.

The Europeans got the major power floor down to 161 for open now, although the US still keeps all major at 165.

Grauffel had to overcome a much more restrictive access to range time and firearms than we have here. That his father was involved in the game probably made him what he is, because (IMO) you need to start young to become a true top shooter.

IPSC/USPSA, IDPA, NRA action (Bianchi cup), CAS, bullseye, all do emphasize some skills that can be utilized defensively, but fundamentally they are all games that are not entirely translated to defense.

I enjoy all of them, compete in some of them, and can appreciate the mastery of skill M. Grauffel demonstrates consistently.

Wink is right in that there are some superb shooters in France, and I’ve hunted with a few French PH’s who have demonstrated considerable skill. It’s about access to the opportunity- and in Europe there is a lot less access than here ... now.

Only video of competition I have not lost because the mike did not work so it was not uploaded to the backup that crashed.

SW 610 10mm Auto. I had been DQ in the last stage because of a reload with barrel over the 90° horizontal line, with a revolver, when I was , with a revolver, 61% of Grauffel, with many many pistol shooters behind me..

Pistol IPSC are rather popular in Sweden we have had a world champion once.

Every year our national guard shoots a IPSC/practical competition with their service pistols Glock19/17 or HK G3/ak4 rifles.

There is now a new regulation about shooting in a club which will probably reduce or eventually eliminate people shooting handguns in France. Until this year a club member could bring a guest, most often it was a family member such as one's children, sometimes just a friend or a curious adult, and pay a daily insurance charge of 5 euros. This is no longer allowed. The result being that even if one just wants to try shooting a handgun once to see what it's all about it is no longer allowed. There is therefore no legal way for anyone who is not a member of a shooting club to even try it out. To be a member requires paying the yearly dues (in our club 160 Euros a year). That is an expensive proposition for someone who just wants to see what it's all about. My children all learned the basics of shooting and shooting safety as my guests at the club and with my firearms. This is no longer possible. One could conclude that the State no longer wants anyone to learn gun safety or any shooting sport without making the decision to spend the money to become a member. Since most gun clubs have their own limit to the number of members they can accept (there is an administrative burden for the club) the long term effect will be less shooters.

Too bad, it didn't used to be this way. So if Edmond has not kept up a membership in a French club he cannot shoot as a guest of a member anymore.

Wink, can you shoot on your own private land?
Peter

The majority of hunting in France is done on farm land, so the short answer is "yes", whether you own the land or just have permission to hunt on it. I do not think handgun hunting is allowed.
Since you cannot legally own a handgun without being a member of a gun club the subject does not get "tested" very often. But the short answer to the question is "no" you can only shoot a handgun at a gun club or a range operated on the premises of a gun dealer. The letter of the law is that a handgun can only be in one of three places: 1) at your home, 2) at a gun club, 3) at a gun dealer's shop or gunsmith's shop for maintenance or repair. Of course, transit between them is allowed, gun inoperable (dissassembled or trigger lock) and separate from ammunition.

I suppose that if you had a very large piece of land, far from neighbors who might complain, it might be tolerated without being legal. But most people who have gone through the administrative trouble to obtain an authorization to possess a handgun aren't really interested in losing it by testing the limits of what the police and courts will decide.

That’s a shame that a grand French tradition is being quietly shut down.

Hopefully, your shooting organizations can find a way to solve the issue.

Shooting has never been a grand French tradition, it began with the training at school after the Eastern provinces of Alsace and Lorraine were lost during the Franco Prussian war.
It is in fact more active and dynamic today, hence the creation of the huge national modern shooting range in Chateauroux a few years ago.