Well guys, I'm signed up to take my CHL class on May 16. I'm excited!! I'll be using a Springfield XD .45 ACP to qualify, but I still don't have a gun to carry yet. I probably won't purchase one until August or so. I thought I wanted a 1911, but after doing lots of research and thinking about it, I don't really want to try and carry one. My wardrobe really just isn't condusive to carrying a large pistol. I wear boots and Wrangler cowboy cut jeans everyday, which fit pretty snug.....and I either wear button down shirts tucked in, or pearl snap shirts untucked.

Two of my good friends recently bought S&W 642's in 38 special, and these fit easily in my boot. It got me thinking and I am now looking at the S&W 360PD in .357 mag (which has the exact same dimensions as the 642, but with 3 ounces less weight). I like the fact that it is small, light, but I can shoot either 38 or .357 ammo in it.



So here's the question.....have any of you guys shot the 360PD? If so, what is the recoil like with standard .357 mag ammo? At only 12 oz. I'm guessing the recoil is probably about the same as my S&W 629 in .44 mag, but I would like to know what yall's opinion is. Thanks.

ES

Eland Slayer

I do not recommend carrying your only handgun in your boot or ankle holster.

It is too hard and slow to get to if you need it in a hurry.

Lets say a fella or fellas aproach you with a knife... you have to bend over claw up your ang leg and fish you gun out of your boot.

Not good IMHO.

The best way to carry a concealed handgun I have found is a Milt Sarks inside the pants holster, usually termed inside the waist band [IWB]. These holsters have a metal band inside the leather at the top of the holster that can be adjusted for weapon retention, and it holds the holster open for easy reholstering.

A second way is to carry a small revolver in your front pants pocket in a pocket holster.

When you start carrying a handgun you will most likely have to make some wardrobe adjustments.

I buy my pants 2" larger in the waist so the IWB holster fits.

Also carry some extra bullets. I know of several "incidents" where "one gunfull of bullets" was not enough.

It is a BAD thing when you run out of nbullets before the bad guy does.

A friend of mine has one of these. 38spl +p loads are pretty vicious. We shoot everything up to and including .44's and that little gun is by far the most uncomfortable. That being said, this is a gun with a purpose, not just for plinking. I'd probably go with a compact semi-auto though, like N E said you may want more ammo and an extra mag isn't hard to have on you.
Just a thought, but the way you dress why carry concealed? Strap that baby on your hip and go.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
Just a thought, but the way you dress why carry concealed? Strap that baby on your hip and go.

I wish I could.....if Texas had an open-carry law, I'd be carrying a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail in .45 acp.

I'm getting a LOT of negative comments on the recoil of this little thing.....and that's what I figured. I don't think I'll bother with it. I'm thinking the model 637 in 38+P might be a better option.

For the record.....I'm still considering these two little 3" Kimbers as well, but the price tag is a little stiff:

Ultra CDP II .45 ACP



Stainless Ultra Raptor II .45 ACP

I like the Kimbers and I know what you mean about the price. Maybe a used one. The problem with the lite revolvers is universal I believe, not specific to that model. A hot load in a very lite gun, with a very small grip will simply never be comfortable to shoot, and extremely loud as well. The one I was referring to was a .38 with +p loads as well. I'll take a .44 over that thing anyday.

Well I shot my friends 642 last week and I didn't find it unpleasant to shoot, but I don't remember if we were shooting +p loads or not. In any case, I've got fairly small hands so the grip probably fit my hand better than some.

the most comfy, portable, concealable CCW for me is the Kahr PM9 - it hides away in an IWB High Noon holster, or in an in the pocket holster. Recoil is noticable, but controlable.

6+1 rounds of 9MM, plus a spare mag of 7 rounds works well for me

My backup is a Smith 649. I've either carried a blued 49 or a SS 649 for twenty five years. Load it with Speer Gold Dot snubby ammo and you will definitely hurt someone.

I live in Florida, and carry a Colt Commander year around, mainly dressing as you do, but shorts in the summer. Shirt tail out with an Andrews IWB holster, it conceals nicely under a T shirt.

Get the 360PD. If 357 Mags kick too much just shoot 38 Specials.

Eland Slayer:

I have a 360PD, Kahr PM9, and my favorite, a Detonics Combatmaster. I've also bought fixed up, and sold a kimber UC II.

Recommendations:
360PD:
Autolock will have to go. Mine locked after 200 rounds, and 3000 dry fires. Trigger, DA, stock, is around 16 pounds. Fully tuned, maybe 10 pounds.
My experience is that at 7 yards, head shots are out, not accurate enough. However, I carry .357 Magnum, 148 grain Fioochi JHP's, at 1131 fps out of the gun.
With Corbon 125's, I chronoed them at 1204. This isn't REAL 357. It needs another inch on it for that. Still, torso shots with those loads, at under 7 yards would not be my idea of a fun day.
The gun is simply the lightest, most powerful pocket gun you can buy. It's the only gun I have, this side of a Baby Beretta, that I can drop in sweat pants.
I have large hands, and, with concealment grips, I've never really shot the J frames well. If I put a big enough grip on it to shoot well, it looses it's pocket conceal ability. Still, it's a sweat pants, take out the trash, investigate car alarms, etc. type gun. It's light enough so it's likely to go with you most of the time, and, the first lesson of a gun fight is to have, and bring a gun.

Kahr PM9

The easiest gun to conceal in thunderwear, and, with an excellent DA 5-6 pound trigger, much more accurate then the 360PD with full house loads. Considerably heavier loaded then the 360PD,
yet flatter, no edges, and head shots at 7 yards are easy, and, the groups are inside 2" if I do my part, using Federal HST 147 grain bullets, at something like 900-950 fps, IIRC. A bit too heavy loaded for a true
pocket gun. While I have this gun loaded with HP's, I'd feel a bit better if I had some high quality, 9mm flat point, or even lighter ball ammo, with more velocity.

Kimber UC II
My gunsmith suggested the smaller sized 1911's suffer from tolerance problems that take the forgiveness out of the design. Put next to a full sized Kimber, the UC II clearly had much less room for the action to function in tolerance to different kinds of ammunition. The beavertail is truly idiotic on a pocket carry/thunderwear type gun, making it a holster only, pretty much.
That said, I'd put the stiffest springs in one, pull the beavertail, maybe carry hammerdown, on a loaded round, it has passed the Kali drop test, and have a more accurate gun, with 1911 design. Loaded, this gun was in the 25 oz category, and, has become it's new owners favorite gun.

Detonics Combatmaster:
38 oz loaded, with 230 grain HP 45 Super. I've shot a couple hundred thousand rounds through this design, mainly in a Mark VI, a long time ago. Gun was never clean, ran forever, and, I got VERY good with it.
At combat ranges, well, as a sniper friend of mine put it,

"If I shoot you, you are dead."

No grip safety, but, safe to carry hammer down, loaded round. Passed Kali drop test.


They all have a place, depending on the situation, and clothing.

In retrospect, ideal if you can conceal them are either the CCO, or Kimber version. That's a 4" Commander slide, on an Officer's frame.
If that's either too heavy, or too big, I'd look at the Kahr PM45, or the , or any of the Kahr 45's.
Taurus 45 DA might also be worth a look, since it's inexpensive, and, has, at least from what I've noticed, got good reviews.

Despite the fact that I have, and carry a 9mm PM9, I would rather have a similar weight, and size, 45 ACP, with ball, or flat point ammunition.
My concern is the lack of penetration with any of the PC 'defense' rounds, and, the short barreled 45's slow the bullets down even more, which may give you more or less penetration.

My ideal gun for CCW would be Safarikids Hellboy: .500 JRH, with a 260-300 grain bullet at 1200 fps plus, in a 35 oz gun.

The killer with the 360 PD is at 12 oz, it will accelerate to near or over 45 fps, with near 30 ft-lbs of recoil, if you can hold on. The violent snap these numbers give you are translated into cut trigger fingers, and, simply a gun you pull the trigger and say,

"I'm NOT doing that again."

I could get off 10 rounds of Fioochi 357, or, 10 rounds of Buffalobore Plus P 158 grain LHPs, at 1040 fps out of the gun, and, that's it. They recoil around 25 ft lbs, and 45 fps, and, it's that last number that kills me.

To be a headshot gun at 7 yards, I need to be able to cock the hammer each time, something I can't do with the bobbed hammer on my gun, consistently, and, squeeze the trigger. That, or drop to .38 special, 125 grain ball ammo, at under 900 fps.

It's a carry a lot, hope you never have to pull the trigger type gun...

If you run recoil numbers, the Model 60 doubles the weight, and, you can get it with a 3" barrel. That makes the SD loads move another 150 fps faster, and, that can be huge.

I lost a site on barrel length, and it's effect. See if I can find it...

An airweight J-frame in 38 special is about as much bellygun as most folks can shoot well in a hurry. You can buy the 357 but you won't shoot it at full power very often after the first trip to the range with it. If you can find a range that will rent you one you can prove this to yourself before you buy. Hammer spurs are a nuisance on a pocket revolver and you'll probably shoot better if you practice all the time in double-action. Have a look at the 442 Centennial before you make up your mind.

How does the 360 trigger and grip affect accuracy?

If the gun is shot SA, you have a 4 lb, tuned trigger, provided a good gunsmith has worked the gun.This translates into head sized groups at 7 yards.

If I'm shooting the gun DA, my tuned 10 pound trigger, about 7 pounds less then what the factory set it at, yes, it was over 16 pounds from the factory, with .357, it's aim at the guys chest at 7 yards, and hope I hit something vital. Keep in mind that the Kahr 9mm will with good ammo, have touching holes at that distance, thanks to it's excellent trigger and design.

I might at that with a 1 7/8" barrel the 360 is not REALLY a .357, since the ballistics translate into 100 fps faster then .38 Special Plus P, and, 200-400 fps slower then .357 out of a 3-4" barrel, depending on loads.

I hope you've got small hands...

Pretty hard to recommend this gun unless you get a great deal on it. Why pay 2x as much as the airweights? You could have two airweights. That would give you 10 accurate rounds of .38, vs. 5 shot gun patterned 357...

quote:

So here's the question.....have any of you guys shot the 360PD? If so, what is the recoil like with standard .357 mag ammo? At only 12 oz. I'm guessing the recoil is probably about the same as my S&W 629 in .44 mag, but I would like to know what yall's opinion is. Thanks.

Yes, I own one. About 25-30 ft-lbs, and 45 fps, with Fioochi 148 grains at 1131 fps tested.
With 180 grain @ 1400 fps, 36 ft-lbs at 54 fps.
You won't shoot more then one of these...
329PD comparision:
With 255 grain bullets, at 1264 fps, out of a 329PD, the recoil is 24 ft-lbs, with 28 fps.

In short, the combination of recoil speed being
so high, and, the tiny grip just give your hand a godawful wrenching. I shoot guns with WAY more recoil in ft-lbs, but, nothing comes close in the recoil velocity department.

Just so you guys know.....I ended up buying a Kimber CDP II Compact .45 ACP.