Is the larger calibers better as a self Defense weapon? Well according to Front Site Insitutes they are.

Penetration Is Your Friend!

Dear Subscriber,
We left off in our last report with recommending the largest caliber, heaviest bullet loaded as hot as you can handle to still be able to deliver two quick thoracic cavity shots.
The debate over which cartridge and which bullet type is best will never end as long as there are gun magazines, advertising dollars to be spent, and different manufacturers of the latest and greatest “wonderound.â€
Understand this: Handguns are woefully inadequate in their stopping power as compared to a shotgun or rifle. So why do we carry handguns? Because we can! They are small enough to always have on our person for an emergency and they allow us to immediately respond in a defensive manner. (If you know you are going to a gunfight don’t be an idiot with a handgun -- take a shotgun or rifle.)
Knowing that handguns are inadequate in terms of stopping power as compared to a shotgun or rifle should lead you to want to carry the biggest handgun that you can readily conceal, in the biggest caliber, with the heaviest bullet loaded as hot as you can handle it to deliver a couple of quick shots to the thoracic cavity or a single round to the cranio-ocular cavity of an extremely dedicated opponent.
You want big holes in your opponent and you want him bleeding through and through. That means you want large, heavy bullets that penetrate.
Pretty simple, wouldn’t you say?
Yes, it is pretty simple and that’s the point.
No need to overthink it.
Focus on your ability, not the equipment, because it is YOUR ABILITY to place the rounds you choose to carry in your gun that will determine whether you live or die in a gun fight.
OK, I know you still want recommendations. Here they are. Don’t get too hung up on them. A gun in any caliber is better than no gun at all.
.45 ACP. Our grandfathers knew it in World War II and our grandfathers’ grandsons are figuring it out again in Iraq. A .45 stops ‘em best.
.40 S&W is the next best choice and in most handguns allows more magazine capacity compared to the .45ACP.
.44 Special, .357 Magnum, .357 Sig, and 9mm Plus P all run near third place.
.38 Special and 9mm are in distant fourth place. You can plan on delivering a cranio-ocular shot after two to the chest to end the fight with these calibers.
.380, .32, .25, and .22 -- Don’t even bother shooting your opponent in the chest with these. Your standard response with these pocket pistol rounds is two to three rounds to between the mustache and eyebrows (cranio-ocular cavity).
If your carry gun is one of the smaller lighter calibers that is OK. You just need to understand that you must train that much more with a short sight radius, pocket pistol to be able to deliver fight stopping multiple rounds to your opponent’s head than you would if you were carrying a 1911 in .45 or a Glock in .40 caliber and delivering two shots to the chest.
Please stay away from fragmenting bullets. Those bullets that are designed to prevent over penetration will get you killed. You WANT penetration. Because even the hottest handgun bullet is slow and mediocre compared to a rifle, you need all the penetration you can get. You want the greatest amount of linear tissue damage possible for the best chance of incapacitation (immediately dropping your opponent). You want penetration. Penetration is your friend.
So why not a .44 Magnum, .50AE, 10mm. etc? Because these guns require bigger frames due to greater chamber pressure generated and larger cartridge size, they tend to be very hard to conceal. These big guns, although they have slightly better stopping power than the .45 and .40, do so at the expense of portability, recoil control and practical use.
That leads me into the next report I will send you in a few days where I will share a very revealing discussion on carrying concealed handguns.
Dr. Ignatius Piazza
Front Sight Founder and Director

Of course bigger is better! Big bullets, big holes, big fun!

Here we go. Another post that will go off on a tangent to who knows where, will prove nothing, get everyones hackels up. i can just see MS HITMAN now poised ready to leap to keep it civil.

Me_Plat,

So why are you the one to begin the change in course and start it off on a tangent? Quit stirring the pot and you will stop getting crap all over yourself.

Why is this in a handgun hunting area?

Sorry but I don't see it as relative to handgun hunting what so ever. This topic would fit right in the Pistol Shooting area.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Why is this in a handgun hunting area?

Sorry but I don't see it as relative to handgun hunting what so ever. This topic would fit right in the Pistol Shooting area.

dude, unless this post was moved by a moderator and i can't tell it, this is the pistol shooting forum. sounds to me like a legit question in the proper forum.

it was moved by a moderator, warts and all.

Rather---it was moved.

I can't agree with everything he says, but it is personal preference. You absolutely do NOT need all the penetration you can get. I don't care where you are, you do not need to penetrate through your attacker, the next three innocents and your grandmother's bedroom. Just not needed. It is sort of like the same question about hunting bullets. Once it leaves the animal (perp) it is DONE with what it needs to do, period.

The only other minor issue I would have is his assessment of the 380. Depending on the bullet used (isn't it always) the 380 has been proven to be an 85% fight stopper, as I recall.

Other than those, ok, so what, it is just another "mine is better than yours" opinion with no backup data.

just my opinion.

No bigger is not always better and no the .45 is not the best.

If one can not handle the recoil or the size of the pistol bigger is not better.

Other calibers have just as good a record or better.

The 45 with good jhps is as good as others with good jhps.

With Fmj jacket bullets or soilds they all are not that good

quote:

Originally posted by Rather-B-Huntin:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Why is this in a handgun hunting area?

Sorry but I don't see it as relative to handgun hunting what so ever. This topic would fit right in the Pistol Shooting area.

dude, unless this post was moved by a moderator and i can't tell it, this is the pistol shooting forum. sounds to me like a legit question in the proper forum.

Yes it was moved, but thanks for your concern.

Since when is bigger not better as long as the shooter can handle the firearm?

are you sure jeff cooper didnt write that article. sounds like just another guy with a hard on for a 45.

quote:

Originally posted by victor1050:
are you sure jeff cooper didnt write that article. sounds like just another guy with a hard on for a 45.

And is there anything wrong with having a hardon for a .45??

I love the 45 ACP, it is a great round for defense. I carry the S&W40 as my carry gun, I also have a 380 ACP I carry. It all depends on the time of year and clothing I have, as to which gun goes with me. I always have something bigger in my truck than what I am carrying.

<<<380, .32, .25, and .22 -- Don’t even bother shooting your opponent in the chest with these.>>>

This guy lost credibility with me when he said this. That is perhaps the most foolish pistol advice I've ever heard. Of course a 45 ACP will do much more damage, but a .22 in the chest is much more damaging than some so called experts acknowledge.

I've shot far too many varmints up to the size of coyote with a .22 and seen the tissue damage to believe otherwise. When I can't carry my .357 do to the size of the gun, I have no worries my .32 acp Seecamp at all.

Shoot your way to a bigger gun. Yeah, season and weather plays a large part in what I carry during the year.

i like my rock island. and the 45 is a good cartridge. im just saying its not always the best. why limit yourself to one cartridge and gun.

and if i had to carry one gun. it would be a 357 hands down.

never shot anybody and hope i never will. but don't discount any reasonable firearm. wild bill hickok carried a pair of 1851 colt navy .36 cal. while it's very doubtful that he killed over 100 white men as he once claimed. he did kill quite a few and gain a reputation as a deadly gunfighter. he did this with a pistol of less power than the best .380's, and many of his opponents were armed also.

Here in Alaska I normally carry a 4" .500 S&W but it more for 4 legged than 2 legged beasts. In a less threatening situations I drop my 329 PD in my pocket. We don't need a permit for concealed carry; you can figure in any crowd a fair number of people are armed.

Up here no gets excited about seeing someone carrying a sidearm but the tourists from back east sure freak out. I was fishing downstream last year from a loud mouuthed yankee from NY who though I was too close in a crowed stream; I told him nicely that that area of the stream is always crowded; if he wanted to fish by himseld he should go elsewhere. He started to mouth off again and then notice my 629; he then clammed up and quickly left.

quote:

Focus on your ability, not the equipment, because it is YOUR ABILITY to place the rounds you choose to carry in your gun that will determine whether you live or die in a gun fight. OK, I know you still want recommendations. Here they are. Don’t get too hung up on them. A gun in any caliber is better than no gun at all.

Just my two cents. A .357 Mag isn't really third place, it is probably a better choice than a .45. Both rate on other charts as best defensive rounds. Dr. Piazza likes (prefers and teaches)semi-autos. They don't come in .357 Mag often. If you use semi-auto as your first criteria it's .45 ACP with a good hollow point. If you go with a wheel gun, it's .357 with a good hollow point. I carry a 5 shot .357 Mag with 158 Gn Hydrashocks, my wife carries the same model of gun with 138 Gn .38 Special +P Hydrashocks. She gives up a little power for recoil control. If the feces contacts the rotating oscillator she can pick mine up and use it just as well as hers.

Too answer is bigger better? It all depends on how you use it. A .22 in hand beats a .44 at home.

Whose chart rates a 357 as being best? Mashall/Sanaaw, of course thier data has been totaly proven to be bais and holds no scientific usefullness. I will believe that Dr. Martin Fackler President Of The Internationla Wound Ballistics Assc. and Duncon McPhearson to be correct and certtainly more scientific and they both believe that bigger is better.

Marshall/Sanow provern un scientific data by who and bais towards what. jwp475 have you even read their works.

Fackler ideas were given a big push by the FBI when they were looking for a excuse to cover up thier poor tactis and worse shooting in the Maimi shoot out.

If you have read Marshall and Sanow (correct spellings) You would see that they set and followed very strict rules and guide lines on what and how they gathered their data. They use strict rules and guide lines on what ad type of shootings were allowed in. They set a strict standard on the balistic gelatin. They ran caparision tests with/on all types of other types of bullet testing media. They studied thousands apound thousands of actual shooting looked at hundreds of autopsy files ect ect. U

Can you explain What is unsientific about that. What they came up with is that certain types of bullets at certain vels perform betters then others. When use for shooting and stopping humans. What they came up with is that fmj and solid hangun bullets preform worse then good jhps. They also come up with that a good JHP out of a 45 357 40 9mm ect that performed to a certain level all worked about the same.

So where is the bais there.

What they did blow away was the myth of big bore (ie) .45 fmj and swc as great stoppers. they don't perform any better then other fmj swc bullets when it comes time to stop and human attacker.

Yep, I've read Marshall & Sanow's so called work, the ex car magazine writers turned ballistics experts.
Their so called data holds no scientific realavance and is extremely baised. Who proved it wrong? well Dr. Martin Fackler and Duncan McPhearson for starters.


Here are a few places to start with data that debucks those 2 frauds

http://www.firearmstactical.com/sanow-strikes-out.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm


You can find more material here if you are willing to learn


http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

And here

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

if you want a gun to keep next to the bed, 12ga shotgun wins every time!

quote:

Originally posted by 308mate:
if you want a gun to keep next to the bed, 12ga shotgun wins every time!

Except at very close quarters where one hand may be occupied.
Really, all service pistol rounds perform pertty much the same w/ good bullets. There in lies the rub. With FMJ or poor JHP, then the edge will go to the 45, bigger bullet, bigger hole, greater chance of ending the fight sooner.
I tend to let the pistol platform dictate caliber. In Kalif. we are limited to 10rd mags so the 9mm biggest advantage, capacity, is negated. A G19, G23, G32 all carry 10rds. I am fine w/ 8+1 in a 1911 w/ an extra mag close by. Practice, put the rounds where they need to go & use the biggest caliber you can hit with.

jwp475 after reading all that is attack on the numbers.

Marshall and Sanow have always said vel and penetration does matter they have always said one needs enough vel and penetration to reach the vitals and cause enough damage to stop or kill the attacker. They said a bullet that expands and still gives enough penetration to get to the vitals and detroys more tissue works better then one that dose not.

They also said that once vels get up over 1500 fps things change. But they were not testing that they were testing common handgun rounds. I shoot 357 158 jsp(one mag one max) out of my carines at 1850 and 2150 the damage they do to flesh way out does the damage they do at normal 357 mag pistol vel. The 125 gr out of the carbine I would not want to use for defense as they blow up and might not get to the vitals. But when they do I can assure use they make jelly out of lungs and hearts and blow heads apart. I've seen the damage they do up close.
(Thats stopping power when the brains are blown completing out of the schull.)

I've never seen anything in their two books ever giving any handgun round over 100 percent stopping power. The best they give is to the best 357 40 and 45 loads at around 96 percent.

They have given the 380 32 ect much lower values. Some where between 50 and 60 percent. They said that a good bullet that expands and gives the needed peneatration works better then one the penetrates and doesn't expand.

So I really don't know what you propblem with them is please explain. Do you really belive that a 45 fmj/swc is a better or just as good as stopper as the best 45 hollow points. do you really belive that the best 357 jhp loads are worse stoppers then a 45fmj/swc. We are talking humans not big bears.

Do you really belive a .38 special round nose that way out penetrates the best 38hps is a better stopper then the hps.

Ask your self what would you rather take a hit to the chest with with a fmj or the best hollow points.

For me I'll use the best hollow points over a fmj/soild lead bullet any day against human attackers.

quote:

Originally posted by 308mate:
if you want a gun to keep next to the bed, 12ga shotgun wins every time!

I beleive that is bigger...

is bigger better? well just ask the girls

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I love the 45 ACP, it is a great round for defense. I carry the S&W40 as my carry gun, I also have a 380 ACP I carry. It all depends on the time of year and clothing I have, as to which gun goes with me. I always have something bigger in my truck than what I am carrying.

I agree that the time of year and clothing has a great effect on the suitability of any of the chamberings in defence guns. But it is not limited to the cloths I wear, bur also the cloths the perp wears. The more clothing the perp wears the more punch you need in your shot. Also when traveling there is one very good reason for haveing a simiauto pistol with a seperate magazine loaded with bullets that punch through car body metal, in road rage sittuations. The magazines are easy to change quickly. If walking about the best bullets to have are hollow points, to expend all it's energy in the perp, and not pass through and kill a innocent by-stander. The larger cartridges with full patch will pennetrate car doors, and heavy safety glass without breaking up.

I normally carry a 9mm, but whe traveling I have in my car either a 41 Rem Mag revolver, or most times a gov model 45 ACP with two magazines loaded with full patch in one, and Winchester silver tips in the other!

MacD37, I thought you'd carry a double barrel howdah pistol, or one of those nice 4 barrel ones.
I try to go by actual police use rather than theory or gelatin.In actual use the best 9mm =P or +P+, 40 S&W, 45 ,357sig all perform about the same and perform very well.Don't worry about overpenetration it's not that important .The real problem for police is MISSING ! One NYPD report showed for that year police hit their target only 10 % or the time.
In my experience the standard 9mm and the lesser cartridges leave much to be desired !

If concealment wasn't an issue, such as in Israel and Africa or an open carry state, I'd carry my PLR-16 on a sling with SS109s alternated with Soft Points. Would that be bigger or smaller as far as hand guns go? Smaller hole but more energy and physically a larger pistol...

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
MacD37, I thought you'd carry a double barrel howdah pistol, or one of those nice 4 barrel ones.
I try to go by actual police use rather than theory or gelatin.In actual use the best 9mm =P or +P+, 40 S&W, 45 ,357sig all perform about the same and perform very well.Don't worry about overpenetration it's not that important .The real problem for police is MISSING ! One NYPD report showed for that year police hit their target only 10 % or the time.
In my experience the standard 9mm and the lesser cartridges leave much to be desired !

Exactly! When a shootout ensues and all that lead is flying around from both sides missing, it seems incongruous to worry about overpenetration.......

tom -- I wouldn't put much stock in energy. Give me a large diameter hole all the way through the intended target.......

.. My most recient exposure to the 45 ACP was a couple days ago , a guy I know used it to finish off a small black bear , about 200 lbs ..the hard ball 230 gr bullet penetrated about 5 " we found it laying sidewase smashed flatish on the side of the base it didn,t break the scapula which was I think the intended target ....
I don,t think that is very good performance as it didn,t do much . A 357 158 gr sp would have done better ... .....

Just another example of the 45 failing , I once watched a doctor pull a 230 gr Black Talon out of a guys head the guy , an African American from some city talked all the while the doctor worked .. The bullet went in next to his eye ball .... I don,t think he lost fision in his eye .. but it did damage the guys tear duct so his eye will give hi troubles later in life .... If it had been a 115 gr hard ball or 124 gr hard ball there would have been an exit hole out the back of the corpses skull .....

..,., HHUMM Magine that .....

A snub nose hammer less 357 is about as good a personal defense handgun as there is ..

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458: A snub nose hammer less 357 is about as good a personal defense handgun as there is ..

But not as good as my snub-nosed .44......

If I miss, I can still blind, burn and deafen......

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
.. My most recient exposure to the 45 ACP was a couple days ago , a guy I know used it to finish off a small black bear , about 200 lbs ..the hard ball 230 gr bullet penetrated about 5 " we found it laying sidewase smashed flatish on the side of the base it didn,t break the scapula which was I think the intended target ....
I don,t think that is very good performance as it didn,t do much . A 357 158 gr sp would have done better ... .....

Just another example of the 45 failing , I once watched a doctor pull a 230 gr Black Talon out of a guys head the guy , an African American from some city talked all the while the doctor worked .. The bullet went in next to his eye ball .... I don,t think he lost fision in his eye .. but it did damage the guys tear duct so his eye will give hi troubles later in life .... If it had been a 115 gr hard ball or 124 gr hard ball there would have been an exit hole out the back of the corpses skull .....

..,., HHUMM Magine that .....

A snub nose hammer less 357 is about as good a personal defense handgun as there is ..

All handgun rounds can & have failed at one time or another. 45FMJ is not your best choice IMO. Any of the better 185gr-200grJHP offer greater potential for quicker stops. Many of the current 230grJHP are also very good. I trust my life to a 45acp, but feel just as well armed w/ 9mm, 357sig or 40 w/ good bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
tom -- I wouldn't put much stock in energy. Give me a large diameter hole all the way through the intended target.......

Howsabout I just sling my Grendel with the M-4 upper on it, then, and skip pistols?

Regards,

I could bring bring my .416 Rem or .450 Ackley to the gunfight as well, but we are talking about holstered and concealable firearms, are we not??

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I could bring bring my .416 Rem or .450 Ackley to the gunfight as well, but we are talking about holstered and concealable firearms, are we not??

It could be made to fit a holster, silly as that may be...My .45-70, .450 Marlin, and .30-30 AckImp pistols all have holsters, but the latter is alas a single shot, which would be a disadvantage....Didn't know if we were talking concealable or not.

Just daydreaming about a perfect world...

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gumboot458:
.. My most recient exposure to the 45 ACP was a couple days ago , a guy I know used it to finish off a small black bear , about 200 lbs ..the hard ball 230 gr bullet penetrated about 5 " we found it laying sidewase smashed flatish on the side of the base it didn,t break the scapula which was I think the intended target ....
I don,t think that is very good performance as it didn,t do much . A 357 158 gr sp would have done better ... .....

There is one thing that is not being seen here! A black bear of 200 lbs is nothing like a human of 200 lbs! A black bear, like a hog has a very primative nervous system, and doesn't sucume to shock easily. Sometimes a 375 H&H with a 300 gr bullet will not keep a Black bear down with a shot to the thorax, blowing the heart and lungs to tatters, and he must be followed up, some times for great distances. No hand gun short of a real magnum with a well placed tough bullet is a good choice for a black bear. A human, hit in the thorax with a good hollowpoint from a 45ACP will react quite differently, I assure you. Humans are very suseptable to shock in the upper body, and nothing dilivers shock like a big bullet, at moderate speed. Addtionally any one who doesn't think you need to worry about over penetration and hitting an innocent bystanders, is simply not a very careing person, IMO!

Take, for example, the guy in Killien, Luby's cafateria shooting people in a crowded resturante, any one hitting him with an over penetrating bullet, may have helped the perp take out another innocent patron! To say one shouldn't worry about over penetration in an urban setting is just plain dumb! No other way to say it!