I would like to solicit your thoughts about these two pistols in 10mm. If you had to chose between the two which would you select?

Thanks,
Eric

I have a Witness Elite. Best buy I've ever made.

I bought it as a 45 then bought a 10mm,9mm and 22 top. The 22 will shoot std vel.

I have a 1911 Delta too, I down load for it.

I too have a Witness Elite in 10mm. A very accurate and very attractive looking gun. I also have another in 38 Super! Sorry, I have no knowledge of the Armscor. I would check reviews of both guns. I have absolutely no time for an inaccurate gun in any caliber!
Target photo added:

Peter.

Decided to go with the RIA 1911AI in 10mm. I still like the Witness but was unable to find one that didn't have the accessory/Picatinny rail.

The gun came from RSR. It came with only one magazine. I thought they had shipped with two in the past. Contacted Armscor about this. The slide does not hold open with the empty mag. It will if i insert a 45 ACP mag though. I contacted Armscor about this a well.

This morning I am off to China for a few weeks for business. The test fire will have to wait until I get back


Other than the two issues above. Well, one issue really. I am pleased/impressed with fit and finish on the gun.

Eric

I am a bit disappointed with customer service. I explained the problem and explained that I am working in China for a few weeks. It appears that they are more worried about me trying to cheat them out of a free magazine than being concerned that they may have sold a customer a faulty product. I expect that it is the mag and not the gun itself.

They will not ship a replacement magazine until they receive the old mag. I cannot send the old mag until I get back on the 23rd.

Man! it is just a magazine. Their QA/QC process let a bad magazine or possibly a bad gun, out to a customer and they are worried that they may not get the old magazine back. I will order a Wilson, Meggar, et al and have it at home before I return.

I ordered two inexpensive Mec-Gar mags from Cheaper Than Dirt. They'll arrive at home before I do. They are about half the cost of the Armscor mags and they don't have the bumper pads on the bottom.

We'll see how these do compared to the factory original.

I spoke with the Mec-Gar folks and they could determine that their mags were good based on the make and model of the gun. Armscor apparently cannot determine the correct mag by having only the model but they also need the serial number.

Finally got back from China after snow cancelled several flights. Tired the new Mec-Gar magazines. None of them work. Maybe it is the gun after all. I am sure they will want to try the magazine swap first and I will have to jump through those hoops.

I'll keep you posted.

With a little clearer focus this morning I took a closer look at the gun. It appears that the mag follower is jumping over the side stop. If I manually engage the slide stop and hold the slide to the rear the follower travels up to the top position until limited by the magazine itself. I can push the follower down, feel a slight click and the follower will hold int he proper position. If you shake the gun many times the follower will jump the slide stop.

I called RIA and talked with the same guy I had dealt with over e-mail. They will send a new slide stop which should be here the end of next week. I do not have to even send the old one back. For the mag I had to send the old, supposedly defective, mag before they would send a new one. We'll see how this turns out.

If the new slide stop is not dimensionally different than the old one I will just buy an after market stop.

I guess I well not be buying From RIA or Meg-Gar.

I recently brought Ruger SR1911 runs great.

I have had good luck with Mec-Gar mags in the past. I do not think it is the mag but the slide stop. I do not think the tab on the slide stop which is supposed to engage the mag follower is long enough to do so properly.

We'll see what the new slide stop does.

I'm not sure this is universal .... at one point the slide stops for the different caliber 1911's were all different, maybe 9 and 38Super were the same, then somewhere along the way the mag makers and the 1911 makers started making the follower dimensions all the same as 45acp so the slide stops could be all the same or at least close enuf.

Richj

I have been tempted to swap the slide stop on the 10mm with one from a .45 to see if the RIA fails in the .45 and if the .45 slide stops functions in the 10mm. I am still catching up from getting back from China on Monday and have a bunch of grass to mow on top of that. Still...

Really curious. I used the factory and Mec-Gar mags in 10mm.

I have an ATI 45 ACP that locks open with 45 mags and with the 10mm mags.
The RIA 10mm will lock open with the 45 mags but not the 10mm mags with the factory slide stop.

Swapped slide stops.
The ATI 45 will lock open with the 45 and 10mm mags with the 10mm slide stop installed
The RIA will lock open on 45 and 10mm mags with the ATI 45 slide stop installed.

Well, I talked with my wife this morning and she said the part came in earlier than promised so that is a good note. Unfortunately I am working in Mexico until 9 Dec due to an unexpected event down here. No, I am not soaking my toes in the ocean sipping a fruity drink.

When I get back I'll let you know if this resolves the problem.

Good news and good news.

I'm back home, finally and hope to stay back until January.

I installed the new slide stop from RIA and that did the trick. The tab that engages the magazine follower is visible longer than the original.

I can only surmise that since the 10mm is a bit more narrow than the .45 that the tab on a 10mm needs to be longer. Since the original RIA slide stop worked in my .45 I would say that it was the incorrect piece.

goodness

is this the kind of thing that should/would be caught in final testing at the factory by QC?
Not trying to start a fight but I have never had this problem with a new pistol.
Peter.

Peter,

I too would have expected this to have been found at the factory and expressed this to them. They haven't made an effort to address this concern.

Proper operation of the slide stop is a standard function check after assembling the pistol. You verify the proper function of the safeties; verify proper trigger operation; and function of the slide stop.

Eric

quote:

is this the kind of thing that should/would be caught in final testing at the factory by QC?

When I was attending a Remington armorers school
The factory trainer said they used to test fire all their firearms before they left the factory.

They found the failure rate so low that they only test fired one in ten at that time.

When they get a bad one back they deal with it.

Personally testing and checking each one takes time, time is money.

Manufactures are about making money.

Most likely a 45 slide stop was mix in with the 10mms. The assembler dropped it in it worked when he inserted mag and pulled the slide back.

Down the line it went.

It is all about percentages and how much it costs.

How the company handles a defective items shows a lot more about them then that one makes a defective product in the first place.

Unless the percentage of defective products are higher than good ones.

Their are two firearms manufactures that I don't buy from because they have a high failure rate.

They have good ideas and some nice products but their QC is lacking.

quote:

It is all about percentages and how much it costs.

Exactly. That IMHO is what separates a good company from a not so good company. To incorporate QC into the process is what 6 Sigma is all about and is what separates the good from the very good!
Peter

Two fired cases were sent along with the gun in a little envelope. There is a light green tag stapled to the envelope. The tag lists:

Assembled by
Sighted by
Inspected by
Date Inspected
Packed by

All are initialed. This would tell me that this particular gun was checked regardless if their inspection is 1 out of 10 or 100% inspection.

As a matter of fact in the "Inspected By" row the line is divided by a slash and has what appears to be two sets of initials. The second inspector appears to be the same person who sighted the gun. One inspector dated 9/29 and the other 9/29/15

By coincidence I just ran into a similar problem. I have a Springfield Armory 9mm converted to 9x21. I bought it used and only just tried all the magazines that came with it. One would drop free, feed perfectly but not lock the slide open after the last round. Careful examination (and the help of a friend) showed that it was the magazine follower. Of course the analysis was helped by having magazines that did "work". Still it wasn't straightforward by any means. We went from blaming the magazine body, the slide stop and then the follower and even then, it wasn't clear which part of the follower was the culprit. I THINK we have it figured out, but won't know for certain until I fit another follower.
Just FWIW, Peter

Peter

I am curious to learn what you find.

What are the makes of the various mags?

Eric

Eric, absoutely no idea! These guys often don't put their names on. Meg Gar does but I don't believe the gun manufacturers do!
Peter.

Well, I tried a couple of different followers and one of them worked in terms of slide lockback. I will check feeding at the range next week. Trial and error I am afraid. I cannot tell just by looking, what will and will not work. Hopefully I will learn more as I experiment more.
Peter.

Peter,

I take it that the gun converted to 9x21 before you bought it?

You mentioned that you and a friend determined that it was the follower. What led you to come to this conclusion? Did you have the opportunity to try a different slide stop?

I've read of several other cases in 1911's, typically other than .45,that the wrong stop is used.

I hope that you get things worked out.

Eric

Eric

Eric, we looked at the working of the slide stop with a mag that worked and saw how it should work. We also saw what happened with the mag that did not work, and as I said above, I replaced the follower in the mag that did not work and it now does, as far as lockback is concerned. Feeding I will check later this week.
Peter.

The mag with the replacement follower feeds fine and locks back. I am a happy camper and learned something!
Peter.

That's good news Peter. Where did you you pick up the replacement follower? Was it one you had laying around or did you order it fro a supplier?


Merry Christmas,
Eric

Eric, I got a bunch of mag followers and springs that came with the gun. What is the status of your gun?
Merry Christmas.
Peter.

Mine is up and running just fine after the replacement slide stop they sent me. Works with the factory and Mec Gar mags equally well.

I have about 200 rounds through it with no complaints. They recommend 500 rounds for break in.

Eric