If you are an individual that shoots primarily reloaded ammo in your handguns and you happen to kill an individual with factory ammo could not the case be made the other way around? You must have intended to senslessly slaughter someone because you put different ammo in your gun from what you normally use.

I've also heard the argument for not using handloads but I've never been able to find a case where it was actually used to a shooters detriment. Can anyone point me to a reference on this?
Thanks,

The comment about not using handloads comes from the idea that "you weren't satisfied using factory loads you wanted to do even more damage". It's been mentioned by many instructers but if anyone has specific cases it would have to be someone like massad ayoob.Shoot outs involve two problems , surviving the shoot out and surviving the trial.For that reason getting the best training you can find is an excellent investment.

Jeremy W,

There was a recent article in "Shooting Times" concerning this by Sheriff Jim Wilson. He as searched and searched for case law in the United States and there is no case in which the topic of hand loaded ammunition has been brought into trial.

Load what you want, shoot what you want.

I think that no matter what happens, if the prosecutor is an anti and looking at reelection, he or she will try any startegy available.

Similarly with a civil attorney. What if you had non-lethal shotgun ammo and hit the trachea? Dead perp, and the argument that you new your ammo was less lethal so you deliberately aimed for a critical hit. Or you felt you could shoot with impunity and did. and so on.

I also have to question the oft-repeated statement that racking a shotgun in the dark is an audible deterrent. Why would it not be chambered already? And if it was, why would you drop one shell on the floor just to make some noise and give away your position? Maybe they would have just left had they thought the house was empty (or so another wives tale goes...)

I have also heard that this holds weight in indictment hearings, but wouldn't it be more mitigating to have a loaded O/U skeet gun than a mossberg with 8 round magazine, even if you had racked the slide? And why don't the mall ninja gurus advocate racking the slide on a 9mm as an audible deterrent?

What about using ammo designed for law enforcement? Would that bring up the argument that you fancied yourself a vigilante? What if you used a wheelgun with factory ammo that was also common for handgun hunting (like a 41 mag JSP). Were you "hunting for people"?

The theory that makes the most sense to me;A good shoot is a good shoot,and a bad shoot is a bad shoot.If in defense of yourself,or a loved one,you killed with shovel,would it matter what kind?

I find this to be an interesting topic. I ran a search for state and federal cases involving the establishment of intent (to kill another) by using handloaded ammunition. The search resulted in no cases. However, a good prosecuter would probably question the use of handloaded ammo. He could make a big deal of it or not. If you use the same ammunition as the local law enforcement agency you would have a quick and simple answer for your choice of ammo. "It's what the police use."
For the home, I use a 12 gauge pump with 00 buckshot.

[ 04-01-2003, 02:05: Message edited by: recoiljunky ]

The use of Black Talons has been evidence of premeditation in murder cases. Almeida v. State
748 So.2d 922 Fla.,1999. The defendant had chosen the bullet for its terminal effect. Sure, this isn't protecting your home from an invader, but the law is all about analogies and distinctions. Interesting topic. I suppose if you're ever asked on the stand why you used reloads, the better answer would be "Because that's what I've practiced with." and not "'Cause I knew it'd blow his head off!"

[ 04-01-2003, 02:06: Message edited by: recoiljunky ]

My CCW instructor said that the reason not to use reloads is because the authorities might have trouble duplicating the ballistics in the event of a "replay" of the incident. Factory ammo is standardized and handloaded ammo might be just anything. As most of you know, forensic information such as angle of the shot, distance from pistol to target, penetration as a function of clothing or distance, tatooing from gunpowder, etc, etc, all might be important in the investigation of a shooting.

If I end up in a situation where I must defend my home and family, then I don't really care what the 'legal' end result is for me as long as my loved ones are safe. With that said, I personally use Federal Personal Defense ammo in both the .357 and .45 ACP., just as a matter of convenience.

Hello the campfire!
The main reason to use factory loads in you self defense firearm is that you want a good solid boom when you pull the trigger. It is the same reason that you don't want some tricked out race gun that might break when you need it the most. Amunition, guns and cars are designed to be reliable when they leave the factory and are built to a certain standard that has been tried and proven. I don't test thpousands of reloaded rounds to find the fail rate for any particular loading. I do a good job of loading, but I have had a few duds, where I, for some reson, messed up. I have had far fewer with factory loads. I am not saying that my favorite hand loads are not "better" than the factory fodder, as far as acuracy and paper punching is concerned, just in a life or death situation I want a sure bang. And that is after all what we are discussing, life or death. You want to be sure that the bad guy is the one on the slab.

In a justified shooting it does not matter what you use, and in fact if it is not justified it does not matter what you use. The case turns on what happened not how it happened. Dead is dead, if it is from a .22 single shot or a S&W .50 with hand loads.

I know from over twenty years of criminal defense work that the type of amunition is not going to be a problem. I have not had it come up as an aggrivating element. I do know that I live for the day that a prosicutor tries to tell a jury that my client should be convicted be cause he used "extra deadly" force to protect himself and his family. If deadly force is called for then use it. If you have a question about whether to use deadly force then then don't. Only you know what needs to be done in the particular situation.
Of course, this may not apply on the left coast, but out there the law changes faster than Kerry's war stories.

Judge Sharpe, a poor widows son.

In over 26 years of law enforcement I never heard of a case where it made the differants.

Lets say you are walking out the door with your lastest and greatest deer loads in your 270 and someone comes up and trys to kill you and you shoot him. well the question be were they hand loads no it well be if it was justifiable.

I carry hand loads for hunting all the time if I have to use them in selfdefense so be it.

It use to be it was hard to find a good factory selfdefense load but in the last 20 years or so they really have improved the last 10 year mostly. I carry factory loads now because it is easier to get a great selfdefense load then making one myself. Sure I could buy the latest and greatest bullets work up a load ect. But that has all been done for me. I guess Iam getting lazy.

No I think it has been a bunch of hype but each to their own.

I don't know if handloads would ever be an issue in a criminal case (although not impossible, maybe) but a civil attorney COULD make a big deal out of it if he or she was smart enough to know about reloaded ammo.

Stark- You really should be concerned about the legal stuff following a defensive shooting. You won't be much good to your family if you're in prison, and a massive civil judgement against you could ruin your or your kids' future.

Having said that, I do carry handloaded ammo much of the time. But I live in a very red state where juries don't reward crooks who get shoot by victims and the cops see armed citizens as a good thing. If I lived in a less gun friendly state I might stick with factory ammo as a precaution.

In a criminal trial, there are plea agreement negotiations; and in a civil trial, there are out-of-court settlement negotiations.

Would the content of these negotiations show up in an electronic search of court records? Are law enforcement officers present, or just prosecutors?

It's something of a stretch, I admit. In the face of overwhelming evidence that it just doesn't matter here, I'm grasping for a straw to say maybe it does matter and it would just be very difficult to find out that it did unless you shoot someone.

Let's say:

Defendant has shot someone. Prosecutor in plea agreement negotiations says he'll let you go for disorderly conduct or fourth degree manslaughter or something. One year and one day, suspended sentence, $5000 fine, you just lose your right to own guns and to vote. If you want to go to trial, it's second degree murder, 3 to 10 years, and the jury will be ever so interested in hearing about this handloaded ammunition. Why don't you talk this over with your wife and kids and your boss and see which one works best for you?

I know. It sounds like a scene they edited out of an especially lame episode of "The Practice". I don't write scripts for a living. I argue for a hobby.

H. C.

I am constantly amazed at the absurdity of these discussions...the simple answer is...that's what was in the gun

quote:

Stark- You really should be concerned about the legal stuff following a defensive shooting. You won't be much good to your family if you're in prison, and a massive civil judgement against you could ruin your or your kids' future.

I would rather that they live in poverty than rot in their coffin! Yes I know what you are saying, my point is, if the situation arises, I'm not going to be thinking about the following lawsuit, rather what needs to be done to see to the immediate safety and future of my loved ones.

I have two thoughts on this matter, one "I would rather be tried by 12 that carried by 6", two "get support for the castle doctrine like Florida and other states have enacted and stop worring about the criminals suing you", in a shoot out the one who survives is the WINNER, no matter what else.

This would be a nice problem to have. Living in Canada our laws for handguns are so bad that my 1911 is about useless to me for home defense. If I hear someone break in in the night I'm not going to run to my gun safe (another room) , unlock it to get my pistol, then unlock and remove the trigger lock, then get the ammo to be stored separately. I'm going to tuck the wife in the corner dialing 911 and go strait to the kids room. Where I live this is the best I can do unless the burgler is either very slow or nice and patient for me.

How many times have you been told or read "Never underestamate your opponate".

No one reading this post would do that with a home invader. But, I think some may be doing that when it comes to possibly facing a jury of your MISINFORMED peers.

Don't you believe for one minute that a jury is going to look at a Benelli M1014 loaded with OO buckshot used in sucessful home defence in the same light as an Ithaca over/under loaded with birdshot. Testifing that you have a right to own what ever legal weapon you choose(while correct) isn't going to help you convice the misinformed masses.

Use your stock weapon with "normal" factory loads. That portrays a more "acceptible" image to the misinformed masses ..... the ones that might decided your future.

I hope I never read that any of our friends here ever have to be in that situtation.

If you are pulling the trigger in self defense, the only conclusion in my mind that can be drawn is that you want to kill the other guy before he kills you. I dont think what kind of ammo is in the gun. If you are worrying whether somebody might second guess whether you meant to kill the guy, you probably shouldnt be carrying a gun.

If you pull the trigger just once for real in your life, it is probably the most important decision you will ever make. Once made though, make sure the job is done.

I bet they can subpoena all your AR posts and establish what kind of a premeditated murderous vigilante you are.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Your Honor; the defendant went so far as inquiring what kind of ammo he should kill this poor burglar with, before this poor burglar had even allegedly done anything to the defendant."

H. C.

quote:

Originally posted by HenryC470:
I bet they can subpoena all your AR posts and establish what kind of a premeditated murderous vigilante you are.

I've met a few hand gunners over the years that I've really wondered about thier "premeditations". Like any group there are always a few nutcases present a bad image to the public. That does affect the rest of us.

Urban Legend!

This is a new answer to an old question , and no one will probably see it anyway but I will put my 2 cents in the pot.

When it comes to protecting my life and the lives of my family, I would much rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6, I don't care if the ammo is factory or hand loaded, my only concern is will it stop the perp from hurting my family or me, bottom line.

I almost never shoot anything in my handguns other than cast bullets. Those are real hard and I'd bet they'd penetrate and maybe thru a wall too. I don't want my bullets to 'pass thru' on a defensive shot.

I also really like the looks of what our local cops carry now days. .40 Cal Hydro Shocks. Therefore, that's what I put in the gun for when it's handy in the car, my pockets, or around the house. I don't believe these Hydro Shocks will pass thru a person.

I also don't intend to kill anyone even with a defensive shooting. My only intentions are to STOP the subject.

My belief of one in each lung about 6" apart and a third IF needed between the eye's, or centered in the brisket will stop just about anyone no matter how much drugs, or alchol they've consumed.

That's my belief's for defensive arm's. But, I've also been known to mouth off: "one in each nipple/lung, kill 'em twice!"

I sure as hell don't want to set a load of 12ga 00 off in my home! Just think of the mess you'll have to clean up.

Now then, back in 1970/71. Wife and I split, I went to the Army, she and my cousin went to the park sitting on car fenders til guys would stop and they'd take 'em a couple blocks home. Whether they charged the guys or not, I don't know and haven't been told. I'm assuming they did. Before I left, I told her "don't put up with any shit from anyone. But, Don't shoot anyone above the balls or you'll kill 'em. Damned if that's not what she told the court after blowing a guys leg off at the knee with the .303 British I bought her and the 150gr SP's I'd developed and loaded for her to hunt deer with me. By golly the jury found her not guilty, it was declared a 'good shoot'. They gave her the gun and shells back, and I believe even the empty case she'd shot him with.

Again, here's why not to have over penetration. Within a couple feet from muzzle to his knee, thru three walls and one side of any old claw foot bathtub, then it spun around numerous times until it stopped.

My three little kids were in the house with them at the time too. Thank God they were not behind the guy when she fired.

What happened was, he was a GI, had dated?? her before and was a stupid jealous SOB. She had another guy there, same as my cousin did. J/SOB started smacking her around, guess he hit her pretty hard a few times so she ran to the bedroom and got the gun and told him to git out of there or she'd shoot him. He dared her, no one dares "that woman!!" So, she shot him in the knee cap. When I got home, I went to see my doc that patched him up. Doc told me flat out: "That boy will never walk on THAT knee again". He got a medical discharge over it and went to Idaho or wherever he was from.

Impressive to me after being married to the bitch for 7 1/2 yrs. Glad I pulled out.

Just sharing facts from my life, use 'em as you wish.

George

This I think is one of those "suburban myths" that won't go away. "The atty. will argue you're loading 'super killer' ammo in your basement, looking for a target." -- Heard this in classes, around gun shops, in magazines, on forums.

I've talked to several attorneys about this. Prosecutor, criminal defense attorneys, contract lawyers, domestic/family court lawyers, ad litem, divorce, corporate, real-estate, etc. etc. etc. Law school professors, I just happen to know a few attorneys, having dated several, sat on boards with them, and gone to "parties" with them.

Here's the deal --

Prosecuter is going to use ANY argument he/she thinks will convince a jury that the prosecution's case is the "right" argument of the facts. Ammo may or may not be an issue.

If, as has been suggested herein, the shooting resulted from some sort of "mugging/ambush" out in the woods someplace and the "available firearm" was a semi-auto shotgun loaded with handloads, #2 shot, 3" magnum for "goose hunting" the load is not going to be "probabtive" to the argument.

If the shooter obsesses about defensive handgun carry, belongs to sixteen firearms forums, loads "mega blammo" in the basement and cruises the ghetto dressed in cammo, or skin-head garb, then the facts of the case are going to be presented by a prosecutor in a different line of argument.

So, if you're middle-class, respectable member of the community, avid shooter, reloader, and licensed to carry a concealed handgun, your choice between handloads and Black Talon ammo is going to be pretty much inconsequential when compared to the other facts revolving around the prosecution's case.

If you're involved in a shooting, regardless of the circumstances, the prosecution will "vigorously prosecute" and the defense will "vigorously defend." But it's problematic what sorts of evidence will be presented in any given case. Regardless, you will have your personal affairs turned inside-out in an investigation into every nasty little crevice of your life.

But probably barring any egregiously unusual circumstance regarding ammo (you loaded incendiary rounds for carry), an atty. would be silly to base a case around ammo.

I guess my question is why use handloads? I use factory loads for carry & load the same bullet/vel. load for practice. One box of factory ammo lasts me aloooong time.

Yeah, me, too.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
I guess my question is why use handloads? I use factory loads for carry & load the same bullet/vel. load for practice. One box of factory ammo lasts me aloooong time.

...cause I've never, and I mean NEVER had a handloaded round fail to go bang when I pulled the trigger.

I can NOT say the same about factory fodder. I conclude from this that I have better QC in my shop than the factory. YMMV.

The idea of not using handloads was the invention of Masaad Ayoob, a legend in his own mind. Use what you have confidence in. If it really was in self defence you should not have a problem. Be aware of local laws. Use rational thinking not emotion. It is NOT your job to be judge, jury and executioner.
Peter.

CDH: my mileage has varied! I agree 100%. The reason I have no problem carrying with a handload is reliability. An argument of quality control might even be useful to an uninformed jury.

FredJ: If you have 100% confidence in the factory load, I think your method is sound also. What I don't understand, and it's the predominating philosophy at various forums, particularly with .45 ACP shooters, is that they believe they are getting adequate defense shooting practice with their cast bullet comp loads that barely get them over 165 power factor. The best 230 gr. JHPs in .45 ACP generate around 200 PF. +P 185s go a bit higher. A lot of these guys are carrying one or the other and only practicing with light target/comp loads exclusively. A few of them even condescend to 9mm shooters as having a "spray and pray" mentality. When the SHTF, "spray and pray" is very much an equal oppurtunity employer. Competition can be a useful tool, but in this regard, it can be detrimental, but then again, I'm still waiting for a league that is defense oriented and actually requires the use of defense ammo.

First off, maybe a Bill Clinton approach is best here: Don't Ask, Don't Tell! One other item that rarely gets mentioned in this discussion, and it comes from Massod Ayoob as well, is to never give any information other than your identity until your attorney is present. Might as well count on opening your wallet after even the most righteous defense shooting and in this case, an ounce of prevention is worth many pounds of cure in a courtroom.

I believe that Jim Wilson reads into this the way I do, like the children's story of "The Emporers New Clothes," but I live in Texas. If I lived in Boston or San Fransisco . . . Nah!

I always figured the best reason to use factory ammo is that you can choose the same brand, bullet type, velocity, etc. as is issued to your local law enforcement agency. Then in the (unlikely) event your selection is questioned you can say you figured the Chief/Sheriff and the City/County Attorney had given the choice more thought than you could ever hope to.

I sort of like the line of argument that factory loads for defense last forever. In a handgun, handloads and factory loads are not going to create an "accuracy" issue.

Defense shootings are at 15' and you need to hit a target the size of a pie plate.

CDH, I've never had a quality factory round fail either. Anything can & will happen in Murphy's world. Shoot what you like. The actual details of the shooting will be more important the what ammo you used. I figure w/ all the things that can go qrong in the aftermath of a shooting, why give the SOBs anything else to hang their hats on.

At the end of the day, you were not shooting to kill a person, you were shooting to stop a threat...and you kept shooting until the threat was stopped. Best damn defense I've ever heard.

http://www.john-ross.net/hldefense.htm

Comments on Using Handloads for Self-Defense
by John Ross

Copyright 2003 by John Ross. Electronic reproduction of this article freely permitted provided it is reproduced in its entirety with attribution given.

Many shooters who reload ask about the best recipes for self-defense loads for use in their carry guns. Certain defensive-shooting writers, most notably Massad Ayoob, advise against using any handloaded ammunition for this purpose. They paint a picture of a prosecutor demonizing the shooter for wanting to craft special ammo even deadlier and with more maiming ability than what the factories produce. The single exception Ayoob listed (and here he was tepid in his endorsement) was for someone who needed a defensive load in a powerful, deep-penetrating caliber like the .44 Magnum. To avoid overpenetration and injuring others with a shoot-through, a less-powerful loading than factory fodder might be appropriate.

The instance of a prosecutor going after a citizen for using handloads in a defensive shooting has not actually happened anywhere that anyone can document. The Internet discussion boards call it an “urban legend from Massad Ayoob,†which is maybe not fair to Ayoob. I don’t think Massad ever claimed a specific case where it had happened, only that it could.

There is one area where handloads have caused problems for investigators, and ironically it is mild loads like the kind mentioned above that are most likely to get the shooter in trouble. This is in those cases where there's a serious dispute about how far away the shooter was from the shootee when he pulled the trigger. Forensic experts can pin this distance down very accurately if they have the gun used and identical factory ammo. Handloads, though, can vary widely depending on powder type and pressure level. Obviously, if forensics have samples of identical ammo, like the unfired rounds still in your gun, there should be no problem, although three or four samples may not be enough to perform the needed tests. But what if you've emptied your gun? How do you prove the stuff on your loading bench is the same as the rounds you touched off? The truth is, you can’t.

Theoretical problem area: You whip up a batch of low-recoil, mild .44 loads with low blast signature, for lower recoil and to prevent overpenetration. You encounter a group of would-be attackers, strung out on whatever is that day's drug of choice, who are out "wilding" (which is what happened to the Central Park Jogger.) They ignore your demands to stop and drop their contact weapons (pipes etc.). They keep coming and you finally pop the closest ones at 7-10 feet, firing all 6 rounds at these two who keep pressing the attack as the third and fourth flee. Thug 1 is dead, Thug 2 crippled but alive, Thugs 3 and 4 free for now until Thug 2 tells the police who they are.

Because of your light load, the residue on the clothing of the dead and wounded is almost undetectable, similar to what a factory magnum load would generate at, say, 20 feet.

Will Al Sharpton get involved? Will Thugs 2, 3,and 4 claim they were over 20 feet away and on their way to church service when you opened fire on them? Will they all agree you screamed a racial epithet at them and when they turned to see who the Klansman was, you just started blasting? Will police say that if you thought they were a threat you should have retreated? Will they say you fired too soon? The likeliest testimony from forensics will be "Based on the forensic evidence, we can't say with any confidence how far Mr. Citizen was from Mr. Thug when he shot him. It may have been a few feet, but it may have been over 20. We don't know."

A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force by creating extra-powerful handloads is an imaginative "what if" that has never actually happened in a courtroom. A prosecutor arguing that a defendant misused lethal force because he shot someone who was far enough away that he was not an immediate threat is a very real argument that has been presented to juries on many occasions.

Having said that, realize that I carry a .44 S&W where legal and have for 28 years. I have NEVER carried factory ammo. My load of choice for the 29 is a full power load using a 275 grain Jim Harvey (Lakeville Arms) 3/4 jacket semiwadcutter hollow point that expands violently. I am revising my thinking for the much lighter 329 (which I love.) I'm leaning towards a full wadcutter out of soft lead at 1000-ish. Time for more tests with ordnance gelatin.

John Ross 12/12/2003

I use only factory ammo because of potential emotional liability. It doesn’t have anything to do with the law or reliability. All ammunition is factory made; we handloaders just do the final assembly of factory components. All ammunition can fail, that failure can be due to a screw up in that final assembly. I know the factories aren’t perfect, and neither am I. I think the risk with my loads are pretty low, I’m willing to risk kicking myself in the butt over a ruined expensive hunt because of a screw up I did. I don’t think I could emotionally survive burying a loved one or living the rest of my days in a wheelchair because of my screw up. At least with factory ammo I could spend idle times writing angry letters to Remfedchester-bon and do a little blame shifting. It may relieve enough of the emotional burden so that I could have a few happy moments again.

nordrseta, your reasoning may hold if they don't use "Law Enforcement Only" ammo. If they do, you're in the same quandary.

kln357, there must be an IDPA group in your area which practices with full power loads in personal defense scenarios. Other than finding some like minded souls and arranging practice yourselves, I think the IDPA funlovers are the best "competition" compromise I know of. Have you contacted "CenTex IDPA"? 4th Saturday of each month at Hill Country range near Austin.

Wink: since I picked up the 75 B in .40 S&W, I've been considering IPSC. We have a range that holds matches about 30 miles away. I have never been a fan of how IDPA set power factor standards and then disallows .40 S&W as a Major caliber. I shoot .45 as well and I have never really noticed a difference in recoil between the two when they are loaded to the same power factor. Guess you gotta be from Arkansas. The National Tactical is something I would like to see in "club" form, or something like PPC matches.