I'm eyeing the Witness Compact and P Carry pistols in these calibers. I'm leaning towards the 10mm version, as it would be a nice mate for my Glock 20. The question is: exactly how much real difference will there be in muzzle velocity between the .40 and 10mm out of a 3.6" barrel? All the load books I have list at least a 5" barrel for the 10mm, so I'm not sure how much of that round's extra speed is due to the longer barrel. I could always load the 10mm to .40 specs and have it operate at nicer pressures, I suppose. thanks

It's a lot like the .38sp v .357mag from a short bbl. You are always going to get higher vel. from the heavier load but muzzle flash/flip & blast will be greater. It really just depends on your needs. I think for a SD round, there really isn't that much diff. in the 3 1/2"+/_ bbl. between the two rounds. Me., I would choose the 40s&w, more factory rounds available & cheap brass for reloading.

you could load the 10 to a 40 spec, but it probably won't function in an auto

As a previous poster asked, "What do you want the gun for?". My 10mm (5" barrel) will shoot a 180 br. bullet at over 1250 fps. My 40 will not even come close. 40 brass is cheap and can be found all over the place. Not so with 10mm brass. The 10mm is a more powerful round than the 40. For a carry gun I will use the 40.
Peter.

For a carry gun take the 40. For hunting take the 10mm. 40 has been shown to be an excellent SD round .The 10mm is more than you need for carry but will do for deer etc well. I've used the 40 for over 12 years .Haven't met BGs but it's taken lots of chucks and feral dogs, a great round.

For occasional loads where you want the extra thump, there are a few powders that will put the .40 into 10mm territory if you handload. A heavy recoil spring is advisable for those types of loads. Hodgdon Longshot, or powders like Ramshot Enforcer will do impressive things. In the case of Enforcer, you'll need to use a SP Magnum primer also.

If you like the Witness, take a look at the original. I just bought a CZ 75 B in .40 S&W and it is the most accurate .40 I've fired in the 16 years the round has been around and I've owned about ten of them including the Witness. New CZ 75s can be bought for $400 or less and they are legal theft at that price!

Captain, you need to check out "double tap" The guy specializes in 10mm ammo. he has factory loaded ammo in the 750 ft. lbs out of a 4" glock 20. He also has lots of different bullet weights, from 135 grains to 230 grain bullets loaded, and is very reasonable on prices. I have used his ammo for 2-1/2 years. The 10mm is very superior to any 40 s&w load. It is not even in the same ballpark. I love the 10mm and currently own and shoot 9 different models.

Superior for what? Certainly not as a self defense round. Like .41 and .44 magnum revolvers with full pressure loads, this is a case of too much of a good thing. At that level of energy, a bullet will completely penetrate before adequate expansion can occur. Superior for game? definitely.

Owning and shooting 9 different models is probably prudent since nobody seems to know if Double-Tap even pressure tests their ammo. The handload data the guy has given out with IMR 800-X, suggests somebody should be asking.

If you like high speeds in your .40, the Vihta manual shows a max velocity of 1250fps with the 155 grain Hornady XTP, if my memory is correct. I can't imagine anyone thinking this is not enough.

Yesterday I clocked 1400fps with the 155 grain Hornady XTP over 6.7 grains of N340 in Magtech brass (CBC)with CCI small pistol primers. When I looked at the chrony I thought it must be a mistake, no flattening of the primer, no cratering, no signs of excessive pressure at all. I think I'll back off to 6.5 grains nonetheless just to be on the safe side and try another batch next week to see if I was dreaming or my chrony was on the blink.

KLN,

quote:

there are a few powders that will put the .40 into 10mm territory

What powder?

My 1006 fire 200gr XTP's SAFELY @ 1243fps with the 800x you mentioned (and I think my 1006 is a bit on the slow side). Are you saying your 40's safely come close to that?

quote:

bullet will completely penetrate before adequate expansion can occur

The opposite is much more likely. The faster the bullet the more sudden the expansion and maybe even LESS penetration if the bullet really flattens out or disentegrates.

I think the 40 is a great self defense round especially when it comes to a fast doubletap in a lighter gun, but lets not get carried away.

Deke.

I said INTO 10mm territory, not duplicate the hotter loads. Powders that will do this are Longshot, V-V 3N38, N-105 and Ramshot Enforcer. The data IS pressure tested.

You may think the opposite is much more likely, but the record shows otherwise. 10mm full pressure loads don't have a steller record in defense shootings. Neither do full pressure .41 or .44 Magnum. The human torso does not slow these loads to the point where expansion is reliable and they behave like FMJ until there has been enough penetration to slow momentum. The human torso is not thick enough to slow these types of loads sufficiently. Strike a vital organ, or better yet, the CNS and any good JHP in the common defense calibers will get it done. Short of this, expansion with adequate penetration is the greatest contributor to temporary stretch cavity. Marshall & Sanow OSS data bares this out, so it is more than just an oppinion. We're not talking about Varmint bullets being shot from a rifle, where your oppinion is more valid.

As far as these 800-X loads go, point out to me which load manual you're finding them in. Anyone can put load data on the internet, whether or not someone wants to ASSUME it's been pressure tested is up to them. On top of that, 800-X doesn't meter very well. Not a good thing if you're going to push the envelope and then compound the issue further by using a magnum primer. I know a lot of people are saying that these loads are safe in their guns. I guess they're waiting for damage to the gun as an indicator. I've seen the primer cratering and severe primer smear exhibited by these loads. NO ONE can varify that they are at or under the max pressure of 37,500 PSI for the 10mm and I didn't know there was a 10mm +P. Since you've chrongraphed your load, no doubt, you have some standard deviation numbers to go with it. How about some group sizes?

Like I said, the record speaks for itself. The Remington 165 gr. Golden Saber in .40 S&W has a one shot stop record in the mid nineties. Find me a 10mm Full Pressure load that's even close. The closest I'm aware of in 10mm is the 175 gr. Win. Silvertip and you know it's not a full pressure load and the Silvertip has a jacket that is lighter in construction than most copper or brass jacketed hollowpoints. Loading the 10mm down to around 500-550 Ft/Lbs is the way to go here, not loading it up. Some of the best logic I've heard for defense loading the 10mm would put a 180 gr. JHP at around 1125-1150 FPS.

The 10mm is a great cartridge. It is not and never has been a .41 Magnum.

If you visit the 10mmtalk site, there are a bunch of guys going way past pressure tested data: http://www.imrpowder.com/data/handgun/10mmauto.php
I wonder how many are getting KBs & just never talking about it?? They are both good rounds & I own (2) 10mm but if you want a .41magnum you should buy one, not try & make your 10mm into one IMO.

KLN,

The 10mm was never used to the extent that the 40 has, so their records would not be a fair comparison. The 10mm not having the record mainly due to composite pistols coming into vogue at the same time the 10mm was put into service, and departments going for the latter since the 10mm is less manageable with the newer/lighter pistols. I would like to see the service record you reference though and the M&S OSS data as well (a link would be fine if its on the web).

As far as temp cavity for a self defense pistol round goes, it is almost useless. It has been well documented that the permanent cavity is the reliable indicator of a self defense pistol killing ability in which the 10mm with the right bullets will outshine a 40 any day of the week, and the only criteria that explains the ability of the 45 which is excellent. As far as my opinion, it is valid mostly with expanding bullets which is what we are talking about, never mentioned varmint bullets that is an exageration.

As for the 800x, I agree that it is a tough load to meter, and for hottest loads with this powder, I weigh. I have compared plenty of PR measurements of my loads to those of others that did use strain equipment and am very comfortable with the comparable measurement of cases which do not have the cratering and smearing that you and I are familiar with. As for other handloaders, I can only vouch for myself.

What do you think about the FBI data in which the 357 and 10mm were the only cartridges to meet its requirements 100% of the time? A fairly soft 180gr bonded bullet such as the Gold Dot @ 1261 fps is a tremendous stopper. The 175 Silvertip @ 1275fps (which I believe is VERY close to fullpower, and probably max safe pressure for mass manufacturing) is just as tremendous but more frangible. I would take my 10mm over a 40 on heavily clothed attackers any day of the week (especially if they were firing from behind cover). You are correct that the 10mm is not a 41, again an exageration that I never would argue, but you seem to want to use to put down the 10mm.

They all have their place with the 10mm being on my side, the 40 on yours. If I had to choose only one gun it would probably be the 40. Since I have the luxury of a big gun and a small one, it is the 10mm and the 38+P.

The 40 is a great cartridge. It is not and never has been a 10mm.

Deke.

Deke, Paragraph 1: the 10mm S&W 1076 was issued to the FBI. The polymer frame Glock 20 is still the most popular 10mm autopistol. The 165 gr. Golden Saber load in .40 S&W was at 94% by the time 121 shootings had been recorded and it has improved slightly from there. The 10mm had been in service longer with LE agencies than the .40 when the first 121 shootings occurred with the Golden Saber load, 10mm shootings already had a larger database. The service record is recorded in "Street Soppers II" by Marshall & Sanow. Periodic rankings have appeared in numerous magazines. The Golden Saber numbers were how it ranked and reported in the March 2001 issue of "Gun World" and provided by M&S. The Silvertip rated 87%. The best loads in 10mm were 1: 150 gr. Cor-Bon JHPs (Sierra) at 90% and 2: the Federal 155 gr. JHP. If you check the ballistics you'll find that the energy levels are closer to .40 S&W performance than they are the hot 800-X loads that are all the rage of novices.

Para 2: as far as temp stretch cavity, it's what causes hydrostatic shock to the central nervous system and enlarges the permanent stretch cavity. A cast SWC will give you plenty of permanent stretch cavity, but it's not a very good stopper. If a bullet does not expand, the permanent stretch cavity, measured by volume, is as simple as bullet diameter and penetration depth. The only person I have ever seen that would back your hypothesis was Dr. Martin Fackler. The guy that recommended subsonic 9mm and 10mm to the FBI. He liked pentration without understanding the temporary aspect. Subsequently, about all you could count on from the FBI subsonic loads was penetration. In fact the 9mm 147s penetrated so well that they went completely through some of their intended targets, right into bystanders. Neither of the loads that Fackler endorsed to the FBI offered expansion. I saw him a while back on the National Geographic channel and he is now singing a different tune. Actually, he sounded like a couple of guys he spent a number of years trying to debunk. The difference you cite for the .45 ACP is directly related to temporary stretch cavity, or are you saying that the older loads didn't result in a sufficient permanent stretch cavity? I don't think the .45 ACP ever had a problem there, especially when FMJ ammo was the only game in town.

Para 3: These "others" you mention: did you see the strain gauge data, or just accept that it was a valid load because someone said it had been pressure tested with a strain gauge. The companies that print loading manuals test pressure mostly these days by Piezoelectric Transducer which is a little more reliable than a Strain Gauge. The data in those manuals for 800-X is not close to what's being distributed on the web. By the way, you never got around to posting your load data for the 1243 FPS 200 gr. load. Here's a link that I do have: http://www.czshooters.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1614 clearly demonstrating excessive pressures with 800-X in 10mm and .40 S&W and the 10mm load was not even maximum according to the guy who makes Double-Tap from whom the 800-X data came. If I were out to hot rod the 10mm, it wouldn't be with 800-X. There are better powders if velocity is the only quest. Longshot comes to mind and there are several more.

Para 4: When it comes to ballistics, about the last source I would consider credible would be the FBI. See Para 2 comments. For many years, the FBI carried a 3" S&W Model 13 .357 Magnum revolver. The load they carried in it was a .38 Special +P 158 gr. SWCHP. Anyone that doesn't know that the 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum set the standard for all defense rounds hasn't been tuned in very long. Nobody is questioning that the 10mm has tremendous stopping power potential, but rather that hot loads better utilize it on game with slow deliberate firing than human targets where things can happen pretty quickly. The ballistics you're quoting for the 175 gr. Silvertip are very close to Winchester's, but if you look again, you'll notice that their's came from a 5.5" test barrel. You might want to chronograph it from an actual pistol. The data out there for 800-X and 180 gr. JHPs would make it look like a medium velocity load by direct comparison. Where's the data to back your hypothesis that the 180 gr. Gold Dot load is a tremendous stopper. I guess you never stopped to think that the poorer OSS rating associated with 10mm, .41 and .44 Magnum might have had something to do with shot placement as well. Controllability across the range of shooters in the FBI is why the .38 Special 158 gr. SWCHP was mandated to begin with. From 2" snubs, 3 different loads ranked a whopping 67%, although the Federal load increased to 76% from a 4" revolver. And, as worthwile as the M&S findings are, I don't think you'll find any combat authority with actual experience that will tell you to shoot once and forget about it. The load you're touting for defense has a power factor of 249. I know you're the exception and have mastered it. I've seen others master this level of recoil in combat shooting as well. Rambo comes to mind.

Para 5: They all have a place, but you're not getting "my side." In fact, some of your statements counter your own oppinions. JHPs are designed to work at an optimum level of velocity. Too Much or too little doesn't get it. Momentum is a factor here and when it's too high for the design of a bullets optimum performance level, it doesn't perform as it should. Keep increasing velocity and all you do is increase momentum, but hey, you'll still get a great permanent stretch cavity.

The .40 S&W is not and never has been a 10mm. That is absolutely correct, but why would you want it to be and why do novice handloaders want to turn the 10mm into a .41 Magnum? That's what's happening. Faced with a choice of only one handgun, it would actually be fairly simple. Revolver: .357 Magnum. Autoloader: 10mm, but not for the reasons you think. Yeah, I'd load it to PUBLISHED maximum loads to use on game. For defensive purposes, I'd have the 165 gr. Golden Saber loaded to between 1150-1200 FPS. 484 - 527 Ft/Lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle. See, if I had only one gun, I would still shoot it and it would need to be versatile and last a while.

One conclusion that comes directly from .357 Magnum Ballistics and works pretty much universally (but universally overlooked) with high pressure defense cartridges, is that the best performers have something in common with the 125 gr. .357 Magnum JHP load: KE is above 450 Ft/Lbs and held below 550 Ft/Lbs. Okay, take another 25 if you want it. The only clear exception to that is the Newest generation 230 gr. JHPs in .45 ACP closer to 400 Ft/Lbs. Their JHPs are designed to work at a given velocity and momentum. Last I saw, Golden Sabers, Hydra-Shoks and probably the Gold Dot by now are ranking at 96%. That's the benchmark the .357 set. The .40 S&W 165 gr. Golden Saber gets there. The best loads in 10mm have not, last I saw and the ones that were closest were not full throttle loads.

And now for the point that really ticks me off. Why do you guys think the number of 10mm autopistols is so limited. Could it be that the pistol manufacturers often look in on gun forums and see the kind of data that is being circulated for the 10mm?

I've looked at the doubletap ammo for use in my Glock, and have been a bit leery. So, I've just stayed away from it. I like the 10mm for what it is. It's certainly one of the nicest hunting accessories around here. If I want something with more pop, there are bigger revolvers on the menu!

After pondering things, I think that the 40 would be better suited in the small-gun area. Does +/-100 fps difference really matter at 5 yards?

Captain: The 10mm is a great round, but as far as factory ammo goes, you'll be better served by the .40 S&W. Handloading the 10mm down to near .40 S&W performance is the way to go, depending on ones view concerning handloads for defense. On occasion if someone wants to take a deer with a .40 S&W or something of that nature, the .40 Can be loaded up safely if the correct procedures are followed. The thing that most people don't get about the 10mm is how to make it work best and apply it to the correct application.

My thoughts on 10mm defense ammo are not original. Wiley Clapp has been advocating, for many years, a 10mm defense load that pushes a 180 gr. JHP to around 1125 FPS. Pretty much setting it apart from the best .40 S&W factory defense load by 15 grains of bullet weight. Consequently, kinetic energy for that load would be slightly above 500 Ft/Lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by the_captain:
I'm eyeing the Witness Compact and P Carry pistols in these calibers. I'm leaning towards the 10mm version, as it would be a nice mate for my Glock 20. The question is: exactly how much real difference will there be in muzzle velocity between the .40 and 10mm out of a 3.6" barrel? All the load books I have list at least a 5" barrel for the 10mm, so I'm not sure how much of that round's extra speed is due to the longer barrel. I could always load the 10mm to .40 specs and have it operate at nicer pressures, I suppose. thanks

They will be within 150 fps in my SWAG. Close enough. SD application of handguns is one case where 'enough is enough' should be heeded. You need something controllable first, effective enough second. How's it go...2-3 hits with a 380 beats any number of misses from a .357???

KLN,

I will not be as wordy in my response, but will try to be appropriate.

Para 1: The 10mm had been in service longer, but did it have the same # of shootings that the 40 quickly tallied? The logic here being that the 10 may have been issued to State Highway Patrol much more than City Police. Are you comparing apples to apples? In your March 2001 mag were any Gold Dot loads tested? Novices are not the only ones using 800X, other than poor metering (which is easily overcome by weighing for hot loads), what do you have against 800X in the 10mm?

Para 2: Hydrostatic shock and temporary cavity (what you are calling stretch) in a pistol round of 1200fps is close to a joke when compared to the time proven fact of permanent cavity (btw, its not stretch, but PERMANENT). Widest, deepest hole is the way to go, hence my 45 analogy and its proven history. Unless you are talking high powered rifles (or maybe light fast 357 loads), forget temporary cavity for a SD pistol @ 1200fps or slower, it primarily makes impressive photographs of gelatin for the mags. I have read Fackler's stuff. It is very controversial and I will leave it at that since I am not the one to debunk it, plenty of others are doing that.

Para 3: No, I did not see the strain gauge (did you see the PT?), and may have mispoken. They are SAAMI/NATO certified and that is as good as it gets in the ammo business. What do you know about the validity of a claim by "12VoltMan" that Mike McNett gave out his load data. A ammo maker giving out his load data, this sounds very suspicious to me..... Mike does make hot ammo and I have shot 3 of his loadings. One was too hot for MY gun (note that all guns are different), the other 2 were fine. A common mistake with loading high pressure pistol rounds is using too soft of a primer. The Fed150 cures most of these. The loads in the pics you linked were TOO hot for that gun.

Para 4: If you say that the 125gr 357 load sets the standard, then why is the 10mm too fast? I trust the FBI more than Gun so and so mag, its there @^^ on the line, with the mags it is their profit. As far as me mastering my 10mm, you are correct, it just takes practice. Your Rambo comment is funny. BTW, what is the perceived recoil of a light 40 compared to that of my heavy 10 (this may be an eye opener for you)? My heavy 10 is very manageable and more pleasurable to shoot than my lightweight 38+P.

Para 5: I do not believe I have contradicted myself, be specific and lets keep this constructive, we all have alot we can learn from this.

I agree that the 10mm should not and really can not be turned into a 41. Why do you dwell on this, again, I agree? Your theory of a certain KE range as being ideal in general is questionable. All bullets have their optimum performance and THAT is key. Are you saying that 1000FT/Lbs fully expended on a target with a properly designed bullet is less effective than 500FT/Lbs? Your momentum theory also has merit, but again how can too much momentum expended on a target with a properly designed bullet be too much of a good thing (is a 120mm tank shell less effective on a human torso than your 40?)? BTW, I have spoken to Speer and their 10mm 180GD was specifially designed to perform over 1300fps. Many of their GD's are designed to perform at lesser velocity. They are the ones that said that their testing at high velocity tended to have more expansion and less penetration.

As for "Why do you guys think the number of 10mm autopistols is so limited. Could it be that the pistol manufacturers often look in on gun forums and see the kind of data that is being circulated for the 10mm?", you will need to elaborate on this one since I am not sure what you are getting at.

Deke.

Deke: not quite as wordy, but I'd say pretty close, since you mentioned it.

1: The FBI does not give M&S access to their shootings, so you could make the case that the higher number of .40 S&W gives it an advantage, but there were 55 shootings recorded with the 175 gr. Silvertip 10mm load. The case can also be made that since the FBI dropped the 10mm Lite, recommended by Fackler, as innefective, just as they did the 147 gr. JHP subsonic loads, recommended by Fackler also, were a pretty good indicator that Fackler should have listened to Evan Marshall. I'm glad to know you're weighing individual 800-X charges in your 10mm loads, most are NOT. You might also want to shoot these loads at night since there is a good chance you may need to do that in the real world. For a hunting load, this might be great: defense loads are another matter and there are better powders for defense loads in the 10mm. Maybe you can explain to me why I would want to use 800-X. I don't have anything against using any powder appropriate for any cartridge. Someone thought they reinvented the wheel by using magnum primers with excessive charges of 800-X and somehow believe that that helps keep pressure in check. Think again!

2:The conclusion you're drawing follows the same path in ignoring the temporary stretch cavity. Not found only with gelatin testing, but by bullets recovered from the perps they were used on. You appear to be trying to debunk a subject you haven't looked into much. The majority of Facklers hypotheses were an effort to debunk M&S, not the other way round. So far, the only thing that Fackler has debunked is Fackler. The results speak for themselves. Results from recorded shootings, whereas your's are you're own speculation with no data so far to reinforce any of it.

3: I have seen plenty of 10mm pressure data for 800-X and it doesn't go anywhere near what some are using. What are you suggesting is SAAMI/NATO certified? The ammo, or your handload? You can have you're own suspensions about the validity of a "manufacturer" giving out data, but in your last post you stated that one of the three factory D-T loads you tried was too hot for your pistol. I guess that isn't self-contradiction in your lexicon. I've been a member at CZ Forum for a while now and pretty much watched this 800-X BS unfold. Shooters there are using Tanfoglio pistols, just as the author of this thread was asking about, which you somehow confused with your own perceptions using a Smith that is more than a few ounces heavier. The recommendation for D-T was made and you seem to endorse it. Two out of three times, anyway!

4: If you had bothered to check the source of the magazine article, you would have found that it was authored by Evan Marshall and was a direct response to attacks on RECORDED shootings in "Street Stoppers" by Martin Fackler. Thanks, I thought the Rambo line was funny, myself. If I say the 125 gr. .357 load sets the standard? I can say that it is a fact with evidence to support it. Which so far, you haven't done once! If you actually read what Marshall and Sanow have to say, you will notice that the best loads in the RECORDED shootings were right around the 500 Ft/Lb level +/- 50 Ft/Lbs. Why don't you read it. I doubt my explanation would have much validity for you.

5: Learning comes from someone being able to correlate the facts. Trying to create facts from speculation is in no way consructive.

My theory on KE? Again, this is a matter of record in using loads that are, depending on barrel length and individual load performance, 750 Ft/Lbs or higher in KE with some of the .41 and .44 Magnum loads being capable of 1000 Ft/Lbs. While I have no doubt that SPEER did a fine job designing a 180 gr. Gold Dot for 1300 FPS. You might want to call them back and ask what the intended purpose of the bullet was, defensive or hunting. What happened to your dialogue on the 200 gr. Gold Dot at 1243 FPS? I don't know of anyone designing defense bullets for 1000 Ft/Lbs of KE, but there are a host of them designed for the 500 Ft/Lb range. Momentum is a key factor and that is defined in physics by more than the bullets weight in grains. Velocity is a factor as well and matching it to the construction of a JHP for pistols is very much different than designing game bullets for rifle loads. There are similarities, and there are disparities between the two. The common thread is bullet construction. The analogy you used earlier sounded like an argument for handgun JHPs from a rifle shooting perspective, that with higher velocity, expansion can't do anything but increase. That does not take into account the differences in bullet construction or bullet mass.

As to the question in your last paragraph, I would think that the conclusion is fairly obvious.

KLN,

Lets again try to be clear. You seem to be on the attack and are ignoring or misreading what I have written.

I have never suggested magnum primers, the Fed150's I have mentioned are NOT magnum. Why use the 800X, it gets higher velocity than AA#9. Maybe there are better powders than both, I am not sure, the 800X is enough for me for now.

You and I will not agree on the merits of temp cavity (stretch) in a low velocity bullet so I will leave it at that. We probably have as much real world support for both of our points of view and we will choose the one that makes the most sense to ourselves.

The ammo makers I speak of are certified, I did not say Double Tap was one of those makers, sorry if I confused you. Based on my own testing/experience I do know that two of Doubletaps loadings are within SAAMI specs. I endorse loads that are safe for my gun. No self contradiction on my part, but some assumption on yours. Good point about the author's light pistol, I had missed that.

I agree that the 357 can be used as the standard. You argue that too much velocity is not good, but the 10 is within the 357 velocity you tout as "The Standard" then you say that the 10 is too fast, this is a contradiction, and not an assumption.

BTW, learning first comes from opening your mind, not assuming that you know way to much. You are well read, no doubt. I would NOT trust all that you have read.

The Gold Dot is their SD version, not the hunting one. I use factory ammo with flash suppressor, not sure what powder they use since I am not aware of any ammo makers that will release this info, hence my doubts on the info from "12VoltMan" you are so quick to quote as fact. I reload for my hunting rounds.

I never referenced a 200 Gold Dot. Recheck and you will see that it was an XTP. Try to be factual if you can.

Your last statement, why not clarify it? I do not want to assume, I want to be factual, do you want to be factual?

It seems like you have carefully constructed high/low limits on velocity/KE/Momentum and have invested within those limits, and nothing more or less will do, more will do and do just fine, that is my point.

Deke.

Guys, if you are going to have a pissing contest, maybe take it off the board & go at it via pms.

Yeah, I think we got off track too. Ithink we can agree on the following:
1. The 10 mm is more powerful than the 40S&W ie. can be loaded to be more powerful.
2. The 10mm can handle the heavier bullets better than the 40S&W.
3. We never answered the question about 10mm loads in a short barrel.
Where we disagree is probably on the following: someone tells you that at exactly 10pm he (and some of his buddies) are going to kick in your door. There are no police available, you have a choice of a full size 10mm or a compact 40. Which one do you choose? Is this what the debate is about?
Peter.

Fred and Peter,

I agree and I apologize for my part in getting off track. However, I think KLN is bringing up good points and the contrary ones are worth debating as well. I will try not to readdress things and stay more focused.

quote:

exactly how much real difference will there be in muzzle velocity between the .40 and 10mm out of a 3.6" barrel?

This is a tough one because the speed of ignition (mainly powder and primer) used by each manuf are likely to favor a short or long barrel. However, given loads designed for a shorter barrel for both (flash suppressed, proper bullet, etc.), the diff in vel should be well over 100fps and if I could shoot the more powerful gun/load well, why would I shoot the less powerful one? It is easier to learn to shoot a 40 if it is the same weight as a 10. However, a heavy gun in a house is a no brainer for me.

BTW, you could load the 10 down to 40 specs. I would use a fast burning powder and keep the pressure up, use the stock recoil spring which is typically lighter without incurring as much velocity/recoil. Some might argue that you want to stick to factory ammo though to help fight off the attorneys. As KLN has mentioned, there are ammo makers that load down the 10 to 40 levels (Hornady and Federal come to mind), then run the hot loads with more recoil when in the woods or hunting. BTW, if running alot of HOT loads, go with a heavy recoil spring to max the velocity and reduce wear on the gun.

Deke.

Pissing contest? Excuse me Fred, but who died and made you moderator? Wherever I go and see the 800-X data that is floating around and potentially dangerous, I feel obligated to PISS on the fire. There are two things that Deke is doing that at least make his use of it more logical. 1: he is not using Magnum primers which came out in the post just before you decided to moderate, and 2: he's shooting them in a S&W 1006 that weighs about 6 oz. or more than the full size Witness and much more than the pistols the original poster inquired about. Contentious debate, I'm sure, but there were relevant points that needed to be made.

Peter: any load manual will give you the rule of thumb for velocity loss in a shorter barrel. The ball park figure is 50 FPS with each 1" reduction in barrel length. Chronographing the loads in the shorter and longer barrels is the only way to get a precise answer. In your scenario, wouldn't it be better to think about something more effective than a handgun? If your choice is restricted to a full size 10mm and a compact .40 S&W, seems like the logical answer would be: the one you shoot best. Magazine capacity would be a worthy consideration as well.

Deke: don't take these things as my oppinions. Nearly everything I stated can be found by reading the M&S books. There are a number of theorists out there, but no one has devised a more meaningful way to reinforce their conclusions than what has been done by M&S. The data protocol is obviously restricted, because it has to be. Some question the logic of the one shot stop principle without understanding that it is the only way to evaluate the performance of a single bullet. They are in NO WAY advocating the idea of a single shot. The inclusion of shootings that involve more than one shot skew the data. Some perps have two slugs in them, some three, some, four or more. Those shootings would not be indicative of a single bullets performance. To determine the performance of an individual load, it is more logical to look at perps that were dropped by a single round The key thing here is that the bullets are examined after recovery from the criminal. Not recovered from ballistic gelatin.

I don't endorse the use of subsonic defense loads in any caliber. Some of the "downloaded" 10mm is subsonic. Likewise, I wouldn't choose 180 gr. subsonic loads for the .40 S&W. 150 - 165 gr. loads have shown to be best if velocity is high enough to get into the 500 Ft/Lb "window." This is my reason for promoting what M&S have concluded in their findings. You will do better with loads that use a good JHP design, 500 Ft/lbs of KE, +/- 50 Ft/lbs. 9 X 19mm - .45 ACP with the one exception that several of the 230 gr. JHPs don't get there (450 Ft/Lbs) unless rated +P. Nonetheless, their performance is at or near the top of performance in .45 ACP.

As far as loading your own down, let me give you an example. A powder that works well for .40 S&W and 10mm: Ramshot Silhouette, formerly Winchester WAP. It is treated to prevent flash and is a good choice for building defense loads. At the start charge level, performance for the 10mm is ideal and loads are somewhat faster than full power .40 S&W with the same powder. The problem is that most ammomakers are not loading the 10mm like this. For my personal use, this is exactly how I would go. I would try to prevent KE from exceeding 550 Ft/lbs in 10mm loads.

Yes, I did make an error in saying 200 gr. Gold Dot rather than XTP, but at 1243 FPS, 686 Ft/Lbs, 249 Power Factor, you get the gist.

I hope you benefitted from the discussion because what is not obvious to those complaining is that there are definitely people looking in on this thread that are not posting. They may not be aware that there is excellent resource material in the "Street Stopper" books by Marshall & Sanow. The most important point I can make is that the oppinions expressed by me are not original concepts that I dreamed up. There is serious scientific evidence to reinforce the conclusions. Evan Marshall & Ed Sanow have done defense shooters a very great service and it should not be ignored.

KLN,

What are the names of the books you are referencing. I would like to see if they are available at the Library.

Deke.

Deke: "Street Stoppers" and "Street Stoppers II" by Marshall & Sanow.

It is my understanding that Marshall and Sanow are not the last word in ballistics testing. There have been several articles critical of there methods and findings. That said, I do not believe for a moment the 50fps per inch of barrel length. You have to chrono. the particular load and then if you insist on shooting a shorter barrel, use a faster powder. At some point however, you reach diminishing returns. My S&W PC Shorty Forty certainly lets you know when you are shooting a load that may be full house for it, but is certainly nothing outrageous in a full size gun. So, even if the load is not very high on the power scale, it can be deficient in the area of multiple (accurate) shots in a short space of time. I personally do not load for maximum power, but rather for maximum accuracy. In some cases this is at the upper end, in others, it is not. But I do shoot loads that I have confidence in.
Peter.

Well, it's my understanding that if someone say's, catch that fart and paint it green, you don't neccessarily have to be a sprinter to start running when the gun goes off, either. In fact, you may not choose to run at all!

KLN,

Thanks, I will try to locate them. I did find alot of flap on the web though concerning M&S. As one author put it, "The tag-team wrestling match in the terminal ballistics field is currently between Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall in the "small and fast" corner, and Dr. Martin Fackler (backed up by Thompson and LaGarde) in the "big and slow" corner." These two groups explain their arguments in a way we can understand, but I don't know if I am the one to contest either since in college I hated statistics, and my physics studies did not go far in dynamics.

Two points of view I can summarize.

According to M&S, the 40 and 10 were only 2% points different in one-stop statistics. It is important to note that the 10 stats were not much over 100 cases. If a couple of the 10 cases were flawed, the findings of the 40 and 10 could be the same. Therefore, I believe the statistical sampling is too small.

The final point is one of practicality. Whether you buy into one camp or the other, with properly designed loads (velocity and bullet contruction), the 40/10/45 all do very well.

From there it is more important on which gun will put the bullet where you need it, and how many times will you need to fire to accomplish that. The odds of us ever having to face more than two attackers are sooooo high, that many can argue effectively that a five shot revolver is all that is needed, but I personally would carry more if I can conceal it, and in a home, a heavy gun with high capacity would be better for more scenarios.

Deke.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough initially. I do have a full-size G20 for use at home. I'm talking about a smaller pistol for daily carry, and I'm leaning towards the 40 for that purpose. It's why I was wondering if the 10mm gives you any better performance out of a short barrel, or if you really just end up with more noise and flash. In a full-size pistol I'd take the 10mm without a question (and I did, in fact).

I did find this whole discussion very interesting, tho!

Not trying to moderate kln, but the juvenile crap that goes on these threads sometimes is just annoying. If you don't like the guys statement & want to bash him, take it off board & spare the grown ups the drivel. Oops, sorry, should have taken that one to a PM.

Captain,

For a light smaller gun (I assume you are talking the smaller Glock in 10mm, but I get confused with the diff Glock model #'s ?), managing it is going to become an issue and you will most likely want to go 40 or less (if you already have the smaller Glock you could save yourself a gun and go with the lower powered factory loads previously mentioned).

I call my 10 a 70o or less gun, meaning I carry it concealed with the clothes I would wear if day temps are 70o or less. I go with a pocket pistol (tuckable/IWB, pocket, or on my ankle in that order) above 70o. It is also important to note that on 70o or less days an attacker is likely to be wearing more clothes as well and more penetration may be required (especially on leather and heavy denim).

Deke.

I've got the Marshall & Sanow books and there is a definite editorial slant to the high speed light weight expanding bullet. But when you look at the charts in the back of the book the good old .45 ACP still tops in the one shot stop categories for semi-automatic loads.

I was looking at my VV manual and noticed that they have a N350 load for the 40 S&W that goes 1200fps using a 180 gr. bullet! Thats in 10mm territory!
Peter.

Peter,

A 200gr bullet, not a 180gr bullet @ 1200fps is 10mm territory. Also, chrony those loads. I have found more fiction than fact when I chrony published loads. BTW, I get close to 1250fps with my 200gr loads and they ARE safe.

Deke.

1300 and up is "10mm territory" for 180gr bullets.

My take on the arguement between "small & fast" Vs "big & Slow" is that I'll take big & fast every time.

AD