just read an article in shooting times about the guys in iraq. seems as our govt. orders them out mags for the 92 berettas that if lucky work with 10 rounds. The guys would rather have a 45, but what to they know. typical govt pattern here, but in any case we are gong to see these on the surplus market in a bit so beware

Butchloc, I am not trying to start an argument, and I have not read the article, but isn't the 9mm Beretta the standard sidearm for the US military? If so, what does it matter that "the guys would rather have a 45"? The fact is that unless you practice a lot, the 9mm is a lot more use than a 45. That's why they switched! Now, if your comment is that the Beretta is designed to function with a high capacity magazine, but the ones that are issued only operate with 10 rounds, then that is a different story. Of more use would be a story on exactly how often the sidearm is used in a conflict like Iraq. I would guess almost never! This is of course not an excuse for inadequate equipment. Funny, the Blackwater guys don't seem to have this problem!
Peter.

according to the article the men don't care for the 9mm because of a lack of knock down power that they get with a 45. thats been one of the points in a case against the 9mm for years. the mags. however are a different thing, the military 92 has a 15 rd mag. the govt lets a contract out for xtra mags to a company that furnishes chitty mags that misfunction with 15 rounds so they only load 10 to hopefully keep the gun functioning. blackwater guys use their own stuff, soldiers use issued stuff.

Butchloc, perhaps you can help me out? Are all soldiers issued sidearms or is it just officers?
I agree that one of the selling points of the 9mm was the high capacity capability. Take that away and you have lost one of its main advantages.
Peter.

Well as a Police Trainer living and working in Iraq and have been doing so since April 2005, I might have some info on several of the questions. I have worked along side the U.S. Military for the vast majority of my time here as well as visiting with the SF guys and some of the Close Protection Unit guys (Blackwater, Aegis, Eryns, Dyncorp…..).

The 9mm was not originally chosen over the .45 ACP due to training issues but due to several other reasons. Our NATO allies all carry the 9MM and the thought was "well we should to". If everyone else in NATO jumped off a cliff our U.S. Gov would have all of us lined up to do the same. (Remember when you are issued a weapon by the U.S. Military or use anything they issue, it was made by THE LOWEST BIDDER!!!)

All of the Beretta mags I have seen here (a BUTT LOAD) have been the standard 15 round variety.

The 9mm 115 grain ball ammo the military uses really sucks. It would be great for shooting small vermin (no not small Iraqi insurgent types). The .45 ball ammo is only marginally better but it is better. .355 hole through bad guy versus .451 hole through same.

What they would rather have??? Well the vast majority of the U.S. Military couldn’t care a less what pistol they are issued. Most don’t get to carry one. Officers (Most), infantry and the guys working outside the wire almost all carry the M-4 along with an M-9. Most of the kids carrying weapons over here don’t have any idea what the weapon is capable of. Oh there are some (darn few) who do but the vast majority just carry them because they are told they have to. If you don’t believe me go into any DFAC (Dining FACility, chow hall) in Iraq and watch as the soldiers unsling their M-4’s and point them at everyone within 300 meters. I have seen soldiers with their M-4 and M-16s slung over their shoulder with the muzzle dragging on the ground or bouncing on the road as they walk. I saw a soldier in Mosul at the DFAC on FOB (Forward Operating Base) Diamondback with a cigarette butt in his flash suppressor. They have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA ABOUT MUZZLE CONTROL OR AWARENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The SF folks on the other hand have a far greater choice about what the carry and use. Most of them are carrying either the 1911 variety .45 or a Sig in either 9mm or .45. About half and half from what I have seen. The Marine Force Recon guys that I have seen ALL carry 1911 .45 pistols.

As to what they use here most. Most assuredly if they had their choice in a fight they would have and use in descending order (B-52 Strato-fortress, F-16,15 A-10), Browning M-2 .50 cal, M-19 automatic 40mm grenade launcher, FN 240 B (Bravo) or G (Golf) 7.62X51, the FN 249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) 5.56X45, then the M-4, either the Benelli M-4 or the Mossberg pump 12 Ga, and last the M-9.

PETER Wrote: Of more use would be a story on exactly how often the sidearm is used in a conflict like Iraq.

Well I can guarantee you it isn’t used often BUT, when you go from all of the afore mentioned to the M-9 things have gone to Hell in a hand basket. You want and NEED the ABSOLUTELY BEST tool for the job at hand NOT the “desk pilot chosen lowest bigger weapon†(i.e. Beretta M-9).


Sorry didn’t mean to rant just got carried away. I will be on the look out for 10 rd Beretta mags and see what the guys here who are using them think. Well at least for the next 19 days then I am OUT OF HERE!!!!

Monty, I am not disagreeing with anything you say! Are you saying though that infantry and the guys working outside the wire carry the M9? If so, then that answers my question ie. just about everyone has a sidearm. Now, if the defecation has hit the rotating blade, and I have an M9 and I have used up my 2 clips and I holler for ammo, and my buddy tosses me his 45 clip, I am not really better off!
Incidentally, I believe that the original point was that these magazines are actually 15 rounders, but only function with 10 rounds. I also believe that our armed forces are not the only ones using the Beretta, so I am not as sure as you are that it is an inferior weapon, unless of course you believe that the universe of semiautomatic pistols stopped with the creation of the 1911!
peter.

Peter,

Yep the guys working outside the wire are carrying their long guns (M-4, 249, Benelli 12 Ga), but NO, not almost everyone DOES NOT have a sidearm. About 10% to 15% of the soldiers here work outside the wire. Another 10% to 15% who dont work outside the wire are issued sidearm. So at the absolute max of about 30% have sidearm.

In the units they usually all carry the same weapon system. So if it hits the fan and they have to assist another by giving away ammo they can. So the point about running out of ammo and a buddy giving you his is moot.

As to who is using the M-9, I have only seen the U.S. military (and some civilians like me) carrying them. The Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians, and all the British and former British areas all carry the Browning Hi-Power. The eastern Europeans usually carry the Sig, Glock or one of the Russian pistols. I can’t say I have seen anyone else but Americans carrying the M-9. I may have missed it, who knows.

Nope, not a 1911 or nothing guy. I have and carry Glocks on duty the most but have carried Sig, S&W (19, 25 .45 Colt, 645, 4506, 4006, 3913) and 1911s. I have one 1911, a Kimber Super Match.

I have seen more M-9s choke on the dust here than I ever thought I would. They have to be clean and lubed or they stop working. The Marine Force Recon guys tell me their 1911s run regularly.

When I was doing firearms instruction I carried a Glock 19 because that is what the Iraqi Police in the areas I taught carried. The Glocks work as close to 100% of the time as anything else I have ever seen. If the Iraqi Police cant make it stop or break it then it is a good system. I will carry a Glock if given the choice.

As to the 10 or 15 round magazines, I asked around at breakfast today and no one has heard about 10 round M-9 magazines. I will continue to check.

And you are right the initial point was the inferior magazines. My bad.

Like I said in my last line “sorry about the rant I just got carried awayâ€.

No need to apologize, excellent knowledge transfer.
Thanks, Peter

monty - according to the article the mags were 15 round, but would feed right unless they only loaded them part way

peter im a vet and have a little experience and have to ask you how you come up with your statement that a 9mm is of alot more use then a 45. I havent been to iraq but it looks to me like there doing a shitpile of house clearing over there and i think if it came down to me having to use my sidearm in that situaion that a 9mm is the last thing id want in my hand. Police depts get away with using them but can use the highest tech hp ammo. Soldiers dont have that option. Its ball only!! And the day to day conflicts of a soldier are much differnt then a police officers. As to my clip not fitting in your gun. Youd better be a very special man or in a very special situation before i toss you my last clip after you hosed all yours. the 9mm was forced on the military because of women and winers complaining about recoil and carry a couple extra onces of ammo on them. It amazes me how soldiers managed to care 45s and 06s and 08s and even shoot those beasts for 4 wars and all of a sudden couldnt take the recoil anymore. More like some polititian is driving a new benz or has a new summer home for selling out the soldiers and forcing them to use inferior weapons.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Butchloc, I am not trying to start an argument, and I have not read the article, but isn't the 9mm Beretta the standard sidearm for the US military? If so, what does it matter that "the guys would rather have a 45"? The fact is that unless you practice a lot, the 9mm is a lot more use than a 45. That's why they switched! Now, if your comment is that the Beretta is designed to function with a high capacity magazine, but the ones that are issued only operate with 10 rounds, then that is a different story. Of more use would be a story on exactly how often the sidearm is used in a conflict like Iraq. I would guess almost never! This is of course not an excuse for inadequate equipment. Funny, the Blackwater guys don't seem to have this problem!
Peter.

Well, Lloyd what I meant was that it is generally regarded as easier to learn to shoot, and, is available with high capacity magazines. Let me just say that I think that Americans have a love affair with sidearms, whereas the British military think that by the time you have to resort to a sidearm, it's time to get the hell out of Dodge. The sidearm is just not a military weapon of choice, IMHO. It is a weapon of last resort. If you read the preceding thread, you will see that I asked exactly that question. You may think it's cool to kick a door down and jump in with your trusty Colt 1911 in 45ACP. but I, and perhaps most others would rather kick the door in, toss a couple of grenades and then jump in with our M16 set to full auto. The fact remains that the military has realised that modern warfare is based to a large extent on firepower, no matter what the purists say about aimed shooting. The modern soldier carries, as I recollect 600 rounds of 223 as compared with 200 rounds of 30.06. And he uses it! Compare the statistics of the percentage of soldiers in combat who actually fired their weapons. Modern soldiers are simply more effective than their predecessors, in part because of their equipment. Additionally, it will be more common to meet an enemy who has some kind of body armor. I am not going to get into a pissing contest about recoil. Suffice to say that soldiers shoot better now than they did before. Why? In large part because we do not have a conscripted army, but an army of volunteers. Etc etc. Certainly an interesting topic but one that has already been answered by the US military.
Peter.

I wont get into a pissing match either but know what id want to go into a firefight with and it sure aint a ball 9mm and last i looked most special forces guys (guys that know what it takes) would agree.

quote:

The fact is that unless you practice a lot, the 9mm is a lot more use than a 45.

Lloyd, that was my original statement. How we got from that to:
"More like some polititian is driving a new benz or has a new summer home for selling out the soldiers and forcing them to use inferior weapons."
I have no idea! Most politicians worship the military. Why? because it would be political suicide to say otherwise. As near as I can tell, this was a military decision. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree?
Peter.

The argument about 9mm 45 been going for a 100 plus years.

But I have yet to find a 45 user thats willing to a take a 9mm to the chest first.

Shot placement is way more important then cailber anyday.

Well I know this they have been having magazine problems since OIF 1 (2003). It was so bad the Army sent folks to Iraq to find out what was going on. They found out that there was little cleaning of the magazines ie pull the rounds out and and clean them. Anyhow majority of the M9 are in the hands of the Military police and tankers, EOD etc. The majority of the combat service support troops in Iraq are armed with the good ol M-16A2. Majority of the Infantry boys have the M-4... I have heard the Army is conducting test right for a new service pistol and they are looking at going back to the 45acp. But don;t get your hopes up that it is going to be the good ol 1911. From what I heard one of the requirements is that is has to be a double action and have a manual safety so for all you glock fans kiss that one good by too. They said the 9mm was forced on us by NATO you know kind of payback for us forcing the 5.56 on NATO and our other allies.

all i know is that my rock island 1911 has way more failures than my beretta m9 which after 2000 rnds has had none. i think in terms of usefulness the 9mm and 45 equal. the 45 has a slight edge in "stopping power" because 230gr hardball stops inside a human and transfers more energy where as a 9mm nato rnd will pass through 2 or 3 humans before it stops. have no resevere 45 guys 9mm is more "powerful" from the begining with original 9mm loads being a 115gr bullet at 1250 - 1300 fps and 400 to 425lbs of energy and the common 45 round being a 230gr bullet at 835 - 850fps for 355 to 370 lbs. but in modern times the 45 is capable of over 500lbs of energy. i shoot 230grain rounds out of my 45 at 950fps. the m9 is a great gun and the government should be ashaimed of itself for giving our troops POS magazines. either way there are places for both calibers as there will be for many years to come

It is interesting how the advantages of the autoloader can be negated by a $20 magazine!
Still, a 10 round 9mm can be useful.
Peter.

While on active duty 63-67, I was issued as a duty weapon the 1911A1 and carried it without ever firing a shot. Upon return to the US and civilian life I found some magazines that had been produced for the troops during the Viet Nam war as replacements for WWII mags. I used a couple of these, and after about three shots they self-destructed as the spot welds holding on the bases broke and spring, follower and cartridges hit the ground. Talk about pucker if I'd been in a gun fight!

Bad magazines produced on low bid aren't new!


If I were designing a cartridge for use in a military pistol, I'd use not less than a 40 cal in a pistol that shoots a truncated cone bullet reliably; however, with modern body armor, the pistol has become pretty useless, hence the new FN's which shoot a subgun round that will penetrate armor. Kudude

quote:

Additionally, it will be more common to meet an enemy who has some kind of body armor.

Kudude agreed! I have seen ads for the new FN (and round) but have not seen any reviews or comments about the armor piercing capabilities. Can you point me in the right direction? Why haven't other manufacturers picked this up?
Peter.

.357magnum and high velocity 9mm will penetrate up to level 3. anything above level 3 requires a rifle. army had it right with steel core ammo. remember the old ktw's that were quickly bannished from the civilian market, lead just mushes when it hits kevlar. steel with a thin copper jacket or moly coating on the other hand... like someone said before the pistol is a last resort weapon in combat. if you get to the point where you run out of ammo with your rifle, you need to be worried about getting your butt out of there or grabbing a gun off a dead guy.

Peter,
I understand that the purpose of development of this round was for close range, subgun penetration of armor. I'd think that it would penetrate similarly from a pistol. However, that said, there is a down side to penetration in police work and home protection. You don't what to be shooting through walls etc.

I suppose a bullet like the 5.7 could be designed to fragment on wall board and penetrate on armor, but it sound like a tough engineering assignment to me. Somewhere I heard that armor won't stop a knife. What if you fired flachettes at low velocity that bent/broke on wall board, but penetrate armor? Kudude

I just read an article by Ayoob in which he stated that the offending magazines were made by "Checkmate". Supposedly the reliability of the Beretta is much higher than the 1911 that was tested.
Kudude, I had also heard that the Kevlar vests which are basically layers of woven Kevlar could be defeated by a knife or any pointed object that would essentially "find its way through" the layers of weave. However if you have a trauma plate, that obviously would not work.
Peter.

i happen to own a beretta and a mil-spec 1911. and i can vouch first hand that the beretta is 100 times more reliable. i have not hade one failure in over 3000 rounds, where as my 45 jams 4 or 5 times a session. its funny that some special ops teams in vietnam carried browning hi-powers, when the 1911 was standard. now that 9mm is standard, special ops carries 45's. i will agree the 45 is a better silenced weapon since it is already subsonic. either way the 2 shots to chest rule applies. it is sad however that the government skimps on magazines. if i had the misfortune of being sent to iraq i would not at all feel undergunned with a m14 and a m9 beretta(with good mags of course)

Peter,

we went to the 9mm as a way of saying thanks to Italy for rescuing the soldiers captured by the Red Brigade. People I know that prefer the 9mm also prefer not to have to practice much. It's like the double action autoloader: Chairman Jeff called the DA auto a stupid answer to a question nobody ever asked...

Victor 1050: I carried a 1917 New Service in 'nam...just because Ranger Teams carried what we wanted to. I never saw any 9mms packed by Rangers or GB's (Green Berets), although I saw a few M2 carbines and once packed a Thompson on a 3-day on the "wrong" side of the DMZ (the statute of limitations is up, isn't it?).

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Will someone please explain where this "favor to our NATO allies" story came from? My understanding is that there were extensive and lengthy tests performed and the Beretta was the last one standing. Are you guys saying this was rigged? Is someone really saying that the US military was ordered by the civilian leadership to make sure that the 9mm won? If the 1911 is so wonderful how come the rest of the world is not using it?
As to the DA auto, I am not sure whether we are talking about the DAO or just DA on the first shot, but I have several DA autos and I certainly do not consider them an answer to a quetsion that no one asked. If no one asked it then they were just plain stupid. If I have a misfire, I just pull the trigger again. I don't have to slam, rack etc etc all of which takes two hands.
Peter.