I am looking for a semi for concealed carry but can only afford $400. The local gun shop has the S&W Sigma and Taurus Milleninum Pro in that price range. Which one is better?

Thanks,
Whit

Not a big fan of either. Buy a used Glock or S&W M&P, even a Ruger. In fact, the Ruger may be able to be had for not much more than $400.

I bought a reasonably well maintained Stainless Kimber Custom II without a lot of rounds through it for $499 from a vendor that hadn't sold much and needed RV gas money to the next gun show...Why does it have to be new? I don't like either of your suggested choices but opinions are like...

Anyway, make mine something that either is or very much is like a 1911 or a Browning Hi-Power. Good used is plenty fine by me. The plastic DA semis at your local gun store are where such things belong, unsold at the gun store.

Stay away from the sigma they are junk. find a use glock should be around 400.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Whitmoyer:
I am looking for a semi for concealed carry but can only afford $400. The local gun shop has the S&W Sigma and Taurus Milleninum Pro in that price range. Which one is better?

Thanks,
Whit

My Taurus Milennium is a great little shooter, but I don't like the way it takes down. Otherwise, I love it.

My friend's Sigma (at least I think it was a Sigma, which he got in a factory deal where he bought a 500 Magnum and S&W threw in a 9mm for free) had a REALLY lousy trigger pull. Otherwise a very nice gun.

I am told Taurus has a spotty reputation in some guns, some pieces being of poor quality in fit, finish or operation and other being quite high in quality. I cannot vouch for it myself, having only a couple of older PT 92/99 pistols and the .45ACP Millenium Pro PT145, all three good to exellent shooters.

eaa witness pistols run around 400 new and come in a wide variety of calibers and even have a compact size. i dont have one personally but have been told they are great pistols. i have shot both of the pistols you mention and both shot excellent. i would pick the mellenium for concealed carry because of its smaller size and it just plain fits my hands better personnally.

Like others have said, save a little more and get a Glock, new or used. It will maintain value better and will be more likely to function should you need it for self defense. Around here, the saying is, when a Glock quits shooting, it's out of ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Like others have said, save a little more and get a Glock, new or used. It will maintain value better and will be more likely to function should you need it for self defense. Around here, the saying is, when a Glock quits shooting, it's out of ammo.

Or it had a kB or a DEA agent shot himself in the foot with it...

JMB knew what he was doing with firearms design. GLOCK makes nice field knives, I own two of them.

Friend and Central Texas firearms instructor of some repute (30+ years DPS/Rangers) once asked me when I wasn't shooting a 1911, which I shoot well (small or big versions), "If it ain't broke, what the hell you trying to fix it for?" He's currently departmental armorer for a Central Texas PD and NRA and State qualified to teach everything to anyone. Reckon he's an idiot?

Go to a gun show on a Sunday when vendors are hungry for gas money to make the next show and spend 400 bucks on a design that's been proven for over 100 years (counting the 1902 as being very close in design to the 1911). I bet it'll even hit the things you point it at.

Cheers,
Make mine a JMB design or a K-Frame

Like others have said, for simplicity, save more and get a Glock. I personally like CZs because they fit my hand. They are a bit more than the $400 as well.

I like how some people still cling to the kb shit even though it is over 10 years old, only 40s and the design was changed years ago. Don't believe the bullshit about it. More Beretta slides have broken than all the glock failures put together.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Like others have said, for simplicity, save more and get a Glock. I personally like CZs because they fit my hand. They are a bit more than the $400 as well.

I like how some people still cling to the kb shit even though it is over 10 years old, only 40s and the design was changed years ago. Don't believe the bullshit about it. More Beretta slides have broken than all the glock failures put together.

In case of MENTAL OPERATIONAL ERROR on your part, most departments still carry .40S&W these days and the design still breaks at times. kBs have also happened with GLOCK .45 and 10mm recently.

I like how the fact that my Sgt. Sheriff's Department Deputy shooting buddy, who could have a FREE GLOCK TO USE FOR WORK, doesn't carry one and neither do most others in his department. He was involved in fatal perp shootings over the years too, grand juries and admin leave, the whole bit. And he's currently trusting his life on a daily basis to a SP2022 he bought with his OWN MONEY.

He could also have a FREE 92FS/M9. I could show you a neat trick in person with you with a 92FS loaded, round in the pipe standard carry mode, me the asshole who not only pushed your gun to the side so you couldn't shoot me but also in such a way as that when you could no longer shoot me with it I had about half of your 92FS/M9 separated from your other half of it, disabling the weapon. while I pummeled you in the face with my strong side hand if I didn't happen to be carrying that day and hadn't just shot you. I'd be willing to bet my life on it that my knowledge of the gun vs your reaction times would be a win for me 99% of the time. You don't have to BREAK a M9 slide for it to come off of one when you wouldn't want it to. Your higher class/intelligence criminals know this too.

Added BONUS of GLOCKS is that with NO MANUAL SAFETY, any street punk that gets it away from you can use it against you by just pulling the trigger. No training needed. Another side effect of that "safe action trigger" design is there's a fine line between a nice trigger pull, an atrocious abortion of a trigger pull, and making one DANGEROUS AS HELL, maybe some combination of the above, as far as gunsmithing goes, especially kitchen table gunsmithing.

We're having lunch Wednesday if the world doesn't explode and carrying a Sig doesn't kill him somehow. Would you like to give us your phone number so we can call you and you can ask him how he got to be such an idiot and still made Sarge?



His department has had two NDs with deputies with GLOCKS so far this year and a couple that broke at bad times for the LEOs involved.

I honestly do like Gaston's field knives, for the price point they live at they are good quality.

Friend manages a gun shop with range and rental guns. All of the guns get regular tuneups except the GLOCKS because GLOCK wants them to be abused until they break and sent back. Request on GLOCK's part. This leads me to believe they still haven't perfected the design and they still get sent back broken from my friend's shop a couple times a year. Rental rules involve no +P or handloads in any usage of rental guns.

AND ONE FINAL POINT REGARDING INITIAL QUERY:

If you think your life (and your friends and loved one's lives) is (are) only worth $400 dollars, you need to fix your life. Delayed gratification is an important skill to learn.

You can commit suicide with a plastic bag or a cheap razor blade. You don't need to spend $400 on a crap handgun to do it.

Chris, I own a Sigma (in 40 S&W) and it functions just fine. It lives in my car and is not a carry gun in my opinion. Despite the stuff written above, the Glock, too, is a fine firearm, Springfield XDs are also good and available in a compact model. I also own several EAA Witnesses, none of them are the compact models and again, they have never failed to fire. There will always be those who think that John Browning was part of the second coming, that his design can NEVER be improved upon and neither can the 45ACP. You can form your own opinion. Mine is that, as a self defence round, the 40 is better. FWIW.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Chris, I own a Sigma (in 40 S&W) and it functions just fine. It lives in my car and is not a carry gun in my opinion. Despite the stuff written above, the Glock, too, is a fine firearm, Springfield XDs are also good and available in a compact model. I also own several EAA Witnesses, none of them are the compact models and again, they have never failed to fire. There will always be those who think that John Browning was part of the second coming, that his design can NEVER be improved upon and neither can the 45ACP. You can form your own opinion. Mine is that, as a self defence round, the 40 is better. FWIW.
Peter.

For self defense, a carbine or rifle is better. And I don't believe JMB was the second coming of Christ.

I don't like GLOCKS and will make no bones about it. I have friends that love them, some are serious IPSC and IDPA top level competitors. I've seen them blow up, and if I was going to have a carry gun I didn't have to think much about or clean much, I'd likely carry a revolver, which I sometimes do anyway.

As a disciple of the late great Ray Chapman, who was a personal friend, "If you need more than 6 or 7 shots you should be f*cking running for cover anyway, not fighting!"

FWIW, you can chamber a 1911 type or High-Power type pistol in .40 anyway so that point is moot just like you can buy a revolver in .45ACP or a bastard GLOCK with spendy brass that tries to duplicate the .45ACP in modified form. Hell, shoot .357 Sig if it is your bag. Some people carry .25ACP too...

I think my point of thinking your life only being worth $400 dollars should be the one that should stick in his head. He can buy whatever he wants. If you just want to plink at stuff, .22LR is a way cheaper way to go.

By the way, Gaston would kick your ass for not typing it GLOCK as it's been ruled that no lowercase letters are allowed in the name. He's an odd man.

Regards and happy shooting whatever gets your rocks off but if it's gonna be a life or death thing scrimping is stupid.

tom

As Colin Chapman (Lotus) once said about engineering cars, "add lightness and simplicate", this also applies to firearms lives depend on unless you have a wingman glued to your side.

Tom, I certainly agree about the revolver. My most carried gun is a Taurus 357 mag. with a 2 1/2 barrel. I did not mention it because Chris specifically asked about a semi auto! I did not know that Glock should be spelled GLOCK! Thanks.
I also agree with your comment about not needing to "go to war" with your concealed weapon.
Peter.

about the only decent gun youll find new at that price range is a ruger. Im not to keen on there auto pistols but they are reliable. If i had only 400 bucks to spend and wanted a good semi auto id look for a used 9mm sig or glock. theres alot of 9s on the market in that price range and either one of those guns will run forever.

quote:

S&W Sigma and Taurus Milleninum Pro

Was at the range/gun shop this morning and looked at the S&W Sigma and Taurus Milleninum Pro for shits and giggles. I'd say no go. Friend who is manager of the gunshop said "those are both worthless" out of earshot of customers that might buy them, he is after all in the business to sell guns and he knows my tastes. Had to send a few of each back for reliability issues too. Then he berated me for spending too much time on the internet when I should be on the range.

Spend 2-300 more and you can buy a much nicer gun than you can for 400 unless you get a deal used or a gun show dealer that needs gas money bad... How much longer does it take to save 2-300 bucks?

They had a brand spanking new Kimber Custom under the glass going for $675 today.

You can't buy that one though, because I adopted it.

1911s are sorta like rabbits around my house.

Chris, to more accurately answer your question, I have also owned a Sigma and didn't think much of it. The striker broke after about 500 rounds. That is why the Kansas City PDs both went with the Glocks. Neither of them bought the kb shit either.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Chris, to more accurately answer your question, I have also owned a Sigma and didn't think much of it. The striker broke after about 500 rounds. That is why the Kansas City PDs both went with the Glocks. Neither of them bought the kb shit either.

When GLOCKS in some form approximating their current form have been in regular daily service for over 100 years you're entitled to an opinion. SO, I'm correct that one gun's junk but I'm wrong that another gun that breaks a lot is junk?

I'd rather be full of shit to you, and have many other's agree with me, than full of broken gun in my hand in the midst of a gunfight. I've seen them go kaBOOM. I've seen the NDs. Go be a gunsmith or departmental armorer and a range officer for a few years and get back to me. After that you can explain to me that the small block Ford and Chevrolet V-8s are shitty engine designs. I'll look forward to it.



Carry a fookin micro .25ACP for defensive armament if it makes you happy.

A thousand rounds means just about “broke in†but shouldn’t mean “broken.â€....Well, I don’t know about you, but I don’t like being without one of my guns for two or three months. My attitude is, “It should have been done right to begin with.†I can understand parts breakage after a lot of service and wear, but not after just a little use.....These aren’t just "nice to have" guns. I am betting my life on them. They have got to work. I could care less about academic accuracy, I need a semi auto that goes “bang†each and every time I press the trigger. 99 percent reliability just don’t cut the mustard when your butt is on the line. As previously stated, I can’t shell out fifteen hundred bucks for a pistol. And, by gobs, you shouldn’t have too. I hear raves about Wilson and Les Baer but c’mon, a month’s clear wages for a handgun? Hey… my kids gotta’ eat too. So I vowed to try the Kimber. I have never looked back – Good looks, accuracy and most importantly, reliability. What good is the rest if it don’t shoot and shuck? Nope, Kimber isn’t paying me and they didn’t give me the gun. I paid over eight hundred bucks for it with night sights and tax, half the price of those high dollar ones I mentioned earlier. I live and work in the real world. I don’t make a lot of money. If I win the lottery I'll probably be calling the boys in Arkansas or putting in my order to Baer, but I still have my doubts if they are going to be a hair better than my Kimber. Lets just put it this way: the Kimber is the one I’ll be riding the river with. Deputy David L. Wood, Edwards County Sheriffs Office, Rocksprings, Texas U.S.A.

I'm glad you know all there is to know about me. It's refreshing to know someone else does besides me. Pulling your chain is some of the most fun I've had for a while, like you putting down the Glock for having NO MANUAL SAFETY then in the next post saying "if I was going to have a carry gun I didn't have to think much about or clean much, I'd likely carry a revolver, which I sometimes do anyway." That makes a lot of sense.

After putting over 20,000 rounds through my Glock in two years, with exactly two stoppages, I know what they are capable of. All were handloads and 90% were lead. Those two were my fault for not cleaning them for over 1000 rounds each time. But that was 1990 and one of the first 17Ls.

There are lots of fine handguns out there, and we both have our opinions about them, and they differ. That is what makes it fun. You can quote one guy as the end-all be-all for law enforcement knowledge, but how many agencies trust their lives daily to the Glocks? Can you count that high? That's a better testimonial to me than someone crying kb every post and quoting a 10 year old article every time.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
You can quote one guy as the end-all be-all for law enforcement knowledge, but how many agencies trust their lives daily to the Glocks? Can you count that high? That's a better testimonial to me than someone crying kb every post and quoting a 10 year old article every time.

I don't think my point on the revolver vs a GLOCK was "priceless". If you're going to have a "no manual safety gun" simpler is better. If you need more than 5 rounds of .357Mag you're in over your head anyway.

99% of officers go through their entire career without a gunfight. My sister is marred to a Texas constable that is one of those. He's never put holes in anything but paper to qualify because he doesn't hunt or like shooting. He carries a .38Sp Colt Police Positive because he doesn't like guns but he shoots those well enough to actually have won the Texas Constable tournament a few times without even practicing, weird dude, a natural but doesn't like guns.

More people own generators and water distillation equipment than cops fire guns in anger by a factor of about 50 million.

How many soldiers, some relatives of mine on the granite wall, trusted their lives to the wrong ammunition in not quite right yet Stoner rifles in SE Asia because of an "executive decision"?

How many of my friends are departmental armorers and don't like GLOCKs?

Rather a few, actually.

You aren't jerking my chain any harder than I'm jerking yours. And I've been the range officer and the gunsmith. I've seen plunger tubes on shitty 1911s come off and I've seen GLOCKs blow up in people's hands. My advisement is if your life depends on it, spend more than 400 bucks.

Put off the titty bars and beer for a month and you will have the money to buy something a lot nicer than a Sigma.

Cheers,


P.S. I also don't run steel case ammo in my guns because I love my extractors. If GLOCKs get you off, have at it. Nothing personal. The "limiting your value of your own life to 400 bucks" was the galling thing to me in this thread.

I can count so high as attending the TSJC Gunsmithing College in the early 90s. Ask Lester Brooks, one of my instructors, he's around here sometimes when he ain't being retired and prairie dogging. I got "A"s in all my repair classes. Matter of public record. He also once told me a rifle forend attempt I made looked like a "demented donkey dick". Not much of one to mince words and neither am I.

Extra P.S. As evidenced by meeting for tacos today, carrying a SP2022 has still not gotten my Sgt. friend killed in the line of duty, even if he had to buy it himself but it did kill a rapist/kidnapper a couple years ago and if I were he, I'd still carry a reliable 1911 of some quality sort but he is a county over and isn't allowed SA semis.

I guess I should give up my $279 Taurus 605 for something more expensive. Maybe I should buy the Glock that hits my thumb when I shoot it.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:
I guess I should give up my $279 Taurus 605 for something more expensive. Maybe I should buy the Glock that hits my thumb when I shoot it.

A: YOU FAILED THE SEMI AUTO TEST AS TO THE QUESTION

B: Small and hard to control .357 Magnum bordering on sightless. That's a backup gun not a carry gun.

Your life.

FWIW: Taurus says

quote:

MSRP: $453.00

So you are technically barely in the $400 new gun budget if the dealer gives you a break or you get a gun show deal for a back up gun I bet you couldn't hit anything past 20 yards with smaller than a medium sized barn. You get to have enormous muzzle flash and flip, the flash will be blinding at night whether or not you sprung for night sights so in a night time encounter you'll likely waste at least 4 of 5 rounds.

Dude with a knife can cover 12-16 feet in 0.75 seconds on average. Even full of .357 holes if you manage to get all 5 hits, if you manage to get it out of your pocket or ankle holster in time, his inertia will carry him and his knife to you.

Get life insurance.

Enjoy your delusions of security. I hope you never have to be proven wrong and you stay shiny side up. Still dumb.

You can't fix stupid but I get a kick out of laughing at it on the internet.

I know..."tom, tell us what you really think..."

The only thing I hate worse than stupid is people advocating other people to be stupid in a way that endangers their lives.

I'd bring black legal flogging for people that did such things if I had my druthers.

Tell me how many people or animals you've shot with that Taurus besides somewhere between ZERO and NONE unless you physically had the muzzle pressed to the body?

Would you shoot it in an IDPA match when nobody is even shooting back at you but you are under time contraints and have to score hits?

People will spend 200k or more on doctors fixing them or their kin up to stay alive and then scrimp on a defensive handgun. It boggles the mind. Handguns are a disadvantage to begin with compared to long arms. Cut that barrel down to 2" and make it a magnum and you've just done all kindsa stupid.

I'll make you a 20 dollar wager you've never even put 5000 full house carry/defense rounds thorough it in practice, and you imply your life may depend on it, in the whole time you've owned it. Shooting light 38Sp loads in it doesn't count unless that's how you also carry.

I never liked the feel of glocks but one day I got to shoot one that had something the guy called a "glock sock", although I think they are fairly universal. It turned it into an entirely different beast ergonomically.

So Chris, if you have issues with some models because of the fit, keep that in mind, it may open some more options for just a small amount of extra cash.

Actually, I got looking at what I paid, the carry pistol I do protect my life with is a CZ85 Compact in 40S&W that I paid $375 for. I would do it again, in a heartbeat, literally. That would fit the needs and requirements desired. They just fit me.

Over the years I have had several pistols, especially in dealing with departments. I have had some that I found inferior, like the Sigma, Taurus PT92 and 99 and S&W 4006. Generally, the rest of ones I have dealt with are dependable and trustworthy. The $400 was the issue for me as well.

I have a M21 Glock and I like it. I have other semi-auto's I like too. But, I hear the new Springfield XD-M's are pretty damn nice and not as expensive as the Glock. The grip area is smaller too. Might go to a gun shop and handle one see what you think.

Shoot what you can shoot but make damn sure it's reliable and it is either a .357Magnum with a reasonable length barrel or in a caliber starting with a .4 or 1(0mm).

My fifty cents...

May none of our next of kin ever have to find out our carry guns were inadequate.

tom

I have several friends that own the Rock Island armory 45acp. 1911's
They do make a compact model. The guys I know that have them love them. Dependable 45 at around $400 NIB.
MM

my rock island shoots very well. i paid 350 new. they also come in 38 super. and i hear they have a double stack version too. whatever you get enjoy shooting it and hope you never have to use it

JG Sales sales a Sig Sauer P6/P225 hand-ins from West German police.

I got one and paid for EXC condition and it is amazing for $300, two clips and a holster.

Montana and Victor, where does one buy RIA's these days. Sarco used to sell them I believe, but I think they are now defunct. I am interested in one in 38 super.
Thanks, Peter.

I will check. I had not heard of their downfall. I will check with my ffl, and get back to you.
MM

i got mine from randys hunting center in Bad Axe, MI . rock islands are on gun broker and i think impact guns website has them as well.

Thanks for all the replies. But my finances just got a little tighter so I can't afford to but right now, might need to wait til spring unless Obama moves quicker with restrictions.

quote:

Originally posted by 333_OKH:
JG Sales sales a Sig Sauer P6/P225 hand-ins from West German police.

I got one and paid for EXC condition and it is amazing for $300, two clips and a holster.

Probably the BEST BUY in pistols out there today.

I went to JG Sales (web site) yesterday and they don't seem to have any left.
Peter.

Anyone know whether the RIAs in 38 Super have a supported chamber?
Thanks, Peter.

Tom, I guess you believe Magnum carried that .45 on his ankle, too.
First you said $400 for a carry gun. The most I've paid for a pistol is $450 for a new Springfield 1911, my Beretta was $450 used.
I never told Chris to buy one. I said I don't like Glock's.
You're right, I've got a little more than 1200 rounds through it.
Wouldn't shoot an animal with it(rabid dog, maybe) and haven't had to draw on anyone in 42 years.
As far as keeping rounds on target, I have no problems out to 25 yards.
Now that you've got what is probably my longest post. What is your big Texan IDPA expierience? You know, the guys with the skeleton holsters that the guns fall out of, and practice how to shoot around the ATM.
Oh, by the way I would hope you know how to block a knife.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:
What is your big Texan IDPA expierience? You know, the guys with the skeleton holsters that the guns fall out of, and practice how to shoot around the ATM.
Oh, by the way I would hope you know how to block a knife.

I used a normal duty holster and full house loads. I quit IDPA when some people complained I was "the loud guy" because I actually shot high speed 125s in my .357 and 165s in my 1911 because that's how I carry them and intend to use them.

I'm not a gamesman. When IDPA became another IPSC I quit. I was close friends with a few of the founders of IDPA and IPSC and when IPSC went silly and we all quit to go IDPA about the same time, we all quit IDPA when IDPA went silly. My multiple IPSC championship neighbor actually stopped letting them use his private range for practice and meets anymore because he thought it had gone silly like IPSC.

Just like racing cars, which I've done. It goes from a skills thing to a "how fast do you want to spend?" thing. I'd rather practice practical things using real world gear and lose the match but improve my skills.

Seems you may have made a few false assumptions of me, as well.

All I can say is when I did my last CHL qual the instructor said to the class, "don't mind him he shoots a couple hundred rounds every day" as I drilled 5 Xs in about a second in a fifteen second exercise. Can't even recall looking at sight pictures. Not bragging, just a fact.

I practice like my life depends on it with anything I habitually carry. I have a little .380 that's about useless past 15 yards but I've figured out how to score hits with it out to 25. Still doesn't make the semi-sightless wonder a favored carry piece.

Regards and hope nothing ever goes amiss in your choices. You just made choices I'd never make.

Skeleton Rig????





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

We both assumed. (Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups.)

Biggest reason for the Taurus is that my wife isn't comfortable with slides and we both carry the same gun for road trips.

Hopefully if things go amiss I'll have the 1911 on me. You have made me wonder what my muzzle velocity is out of the Taurus.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:
We both assumed. (Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups.)

Biggest reason for the Taurus is that my wife isn't comfortable with slides and we both carry the same gun for road trips.

Hopefully if things go amiss I'll have the 1911 on me. You have made me wonder what my muzzle velocity is out of the Taurus.

May all your shots home true.



For what it's worth, with the low muzzle velocity and loads of excess powder/gas to be diverted back and up in a .357Mag 2" snubby, porting it actually is a useful thing to do as even un-ported it will blind you in darkness.

Would make it more controllable and wouldn't make you any more blind at night. Be loud either way, too.

Unless you're on combat patrol, which nobody but Mad Dog Jerry Shriver would do with a revolver, nobody wears hearing protection into a gunfight.

On the Springer 1911s, they tend to have pretty tight lockup on the non-recoil oriented barrel locking lugs. A very slight relief on the non-recoil faces ONLY!, by stoning by a qualified person will make them run like a top even if they haven't had a bath in a while. Don't do it yourself if you don't know what you are doing. My summer carry is one of their ultra-compacts more or less. Living down the road from Chip McCormick sorta helped sort it out with better parts than out of the box by a fair margin. Made my own grip safety to feel comfy in a 3" barrel form.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
For what it's worth, with the low muzzle velocity and loads of excess powder/gas to be diverted back and up in a .357Mag 2" snubby, porting it actually is a useful thing to do as even un-ported it will blind you in darkness.

Would make it more controllable and wouldn't make you any more blind at night. Be loud either way, too.

Thank you! I get so tired of the mall ninja advice that a ported gun will blind you, as if an unported one will not. Especially a snubby.

quote:

Unless you're on combat patrol, which nobody but Mad Dog Jerry Shriver would do with a revolver, nobody wears hearing protection into a gunfight.

So true. But one catch is that you may not be wearing eye protection, and some ported guns with some loads (probably most but that's anecdotal) tend to throw debris back at you especially in rapid fire. Something to think about when you outfit your rig I guess.