I am shooting the 125 grain FMJ bullets and am so far very impressed with the trajectory and I'm wondering about over-all penetration compared with the 40 cal on animal tissue. Is there any tests out there that would be helpful?

Thanks,
Dirk

in your search engin try.... chuck hawks handgun power chart............ I cant insert adresses here on this forum for some reason?? heavier, harder, faster will give best pennetration, the heaviest bullet in the spectrum of choices of a given gun will give the best pennetration with fmj bullet............ If you want pennetration use the .45 auto acp with 230 ball ammo,, it will penetrate 27 centemeters of gel and makes the .40 a distant runner up...... doctors hired by the govt did all these tests when the moros in the phillipines were kicking our butt with farm implements, swords and machetis after the 1800s.. They wrapped thems selves up with tape or something like that, took alot of drugs and the guns we were using didnt stop them.. So presto the colt .45 was developed.. the doctors hired by the govt said to stop a human being a 230 grain .45 cal bullet at 800 fps was needed to do the job. Faster sometimes inpedes stoping power. youve seen a bullet go thru a tin can without moving it.. ........., everyone has been outdoing the .45 in the gun rags for three genereations with hollowpoints, this and that, but its all bull.. your 125 grainer will deflect off bone, and stop short becouse it doesnt have the terminal oomph of a .45 acp.. A 357 has pennetration but not stopping power, it isnt as big caliber.. If you use expanding bullets the pennetraion varies becouse it may explode on a pen in the pocket, a zipper, etc.. Heavy winter clothing, a notebook in the pocket etc also gets in the way of hollowpoints and pennetraion.. If my life depends on it no less than .45. and thats is puny compared to a rifle.. my opinion only............ Now watch the arguments fly on this one............ By the way ive heard, correct me if im wrong, the US army is finlly getting rid of the 9mm piece of crap that our boys were forced to use latley becouse of nato.. Im hoping our boys will be given a .45. dont care if its 1911 or glock, just a good ol .45......... A couple years ago we set up a bunch of my heavy rifle plates to shoot my pistols with.. we started with the .22s,, tink, tink, tink,, went to .38 clink, clink, the .40 clank clank clank, none of them knocked the plate over at 25 yrds.. then the 1970 national match with .45 ball, CLANK! CLANK! over they went.. A real eye opener.. dave

One thing many shooter forget is living, elastic tissue is not wood, steel or whatever. THe 357sig, w/ identically constructed bullets, will out penetrate a larger caliber bullet of the same SD in many substances. Whethere it would out penetrate in tissue depends an awful lot on bullet construction. I'm not aware of many that hunt large game routinely w/ service pistol rounds, but maybe on a handgun hunting forum?
As far as "knockdown", "stopping power", it just doesn't really exist in a service pistol round. I choose the 45acp & the 1911 or XD platform as my def. caliber but I am just as happy, w/ good JHP, using a 40 or 357sig even a 9mm. I like the 45 because I know, regardless of what the bullet does, I'll get a 45cal hole, that's 33% bigger. The 9mm sucks for the military because of RNFMJ. If our guys were using good 124gr+p ammo, things would be much diff.

Dirk,

What is the goal? I assume you are not hunting with it, so, the only other use would be defense, right?

I do not want too much penetration from a defense round. After all, who is on the other side of that shot? You kids, your family, anybody?

No matter what the caliber, I do not want it to exit! I want it to open up like a parachute and destroy as much as possible.

In a defense situation, you do not have the luxury of passing on the shot and waiting for a safer shot, like you do in hunting. Using a round that will not likely exit is the safest option, in my mind at least.

If you are using it for hunting, then maybe we need to talk about a better caliber!

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
I am shooting the 125 grain FMJ bullets and am so far very impressed with the trajectory and I'm wondering about over-all penetration compared with the 40 cal on animal tissue. Is there any tests out there that would be helpful?

Thanks,
Dirk

Dirk, I am going to go out on a limb and assume the animal tissue you are contemplating is human animal. Most .40 caliber bullets are used in the 40 S&W which is a social round, right?

If you are hunting game with a 40 or .357 Sig forgive my temerity and just consider that I am starting this post from a misunderstanding.

ffffg referst to the Hatcher tests that gave the U.S. Army back the 45 Colt and introduced the world to the 45 ACP after the Army switched from the SAA 45 colt pistols to the DA 38 that failed to stop Moro warriors in the Phillipines. I am a fan of big bullets, too, but refer you to the compilations of one-shot stops published by Marshall and Sanow. The 125 grain .357 Winchester Silvertip is still right up there with the .45 ACP solid.

I believe, as ffffg does, in big bullets, but he does not share my disdain for plywood, pine boards, steel plates and ballistic gelatin as a proxy for live flesh. Discerning analysis of what has actually worked in gunfights reveal much that is just obscured by theoretical analysis of holes in media. Unfortunately isolating variables in real-life shootings is virtually impossible, so we are left with a combination of real-life analysis and theoretical tests and calculations. Welcome to the real world, full of compromise and debate.

By the way, (and I think fredj338 might agree) the REALLY best housegun is a 12 gauge or 16 gauge with bird shot. At close range, the packet of shot is as effective as a slug and once the range gets beyond one room's dimensions, the chances of penetrating the exterior of a house (to kill or injure your neighbor or the policeman responding to your 911 call) is greatly reduced. Plus the sound of a pump shotgun from behind a closed door is unmistakable and a pretty good deterrent to your average burglar.

Better still, a good dog. Keeps you company, is self-alerting (guns are inanimate, you know), relentless in home defense, do not require reloading, are wonderful psychiatrists and keep your feet warm at night much better than a Colt 1911 or Remington 870. Plus, the occasional accidental discharge is easily cleaned up with a mop.

The debate never ends.

Remember, believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet.

I am always willing to be educated. Some times more so than others, however. But then I am reported to be only human.

good night.

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Sheep:
[I believe, as ffffg does, in big bullets, but he does not share my disdain for plywood, pine boards, steel plates and ballistic gelatin as a proxy for live flesh. Discerning analysis of what has actually worked in gunfights reveal much that is just obscured by theoretical analysis of holes in media. Unfortunately isolating variables in real-life shootings is virtually impossible, so we are left with a combination of real-life analysis and theoretical tests and calculations. Welcome to the real world, full of compromise and debate.

By the way, (and I think fredj338 might agree) the REALLY best housegun is a 12 gauge or 16 gauge with bird shot. At close range, the packet of shot is as effective as a slug and once the range gets beyond one room's dimensions, the chances of penetrating the exterior of a house (to kill or injure your neighbor or the policeman responding to your 911 call) is greatly reduced. Plus the sound of a pump shotgun from behind a closed door is unmistakable and a pretty good deterrent to your average burglar.

Better still, a good dog. Keeps you company, is self-alerting (guns are inanimate, you know), relentless in home defense, do not require reloading, are wonderful psychiatrists and keep your feet warm at night much better than a Colt 1911 or Remington 870. Plus, the occasional accidental discharge is easily cleaned up with a mop.

I can agree w/ much of that. A dog & flashlight are great HD tools everyone should own. I DO NOT agree on the shotgun w/ birdshot though. It is only effective at close range & from a full choke. Nope, birdshot barely brings down a wet feathered bird & I am not handicapping myself in a fight for my life. So, #4 buckshot is my HD choice for a 12ga. Penetrates well enough to take down a large man wearing heavy clothing but slows down rapidly in bldg. mat'l.
I also only like the SG as a barracade weapon. If one must move through the confines of a home, checking windows, gathering children, etc. I want one hand free & still be able to fight. So a good handgun is my choice. Loaded w/ a round that will expand well & reach vitals from any angle. I DO NOT worry much about overpenetration, most JHP rounds will stop or slow down enough that if they do exit, little is left to cause anyone else serious injury. No, shots that miss are far more likely to cause someone else harm. That goes for mine & the bad guys rounds if he is not put down in short order. Another reason to NOT use birdshot.