which would you buy? 40 or 45 and why?

I have both ,the 40 since it first came out. I don't see any difference between the two on animals like 'chuck and feral dogs. Both I found noticeably better than the 9mm.The 40 comes in a slightly smaller package and the choices are great. To start now I'd pick a 40.
In either case pick a gun that fits you [the better ones have interchangeable grips ].

Well elmo, I was expecting a firestorm! In any case, if were buying a gun now, and did not own either, and was not a gun nut who wanted to own several of each caliber, I would buy a 40 S&W (with supported chamber). There are a wide variety of bullet weights available. Loaded ammo is cheaper than the 45, and relatively high capacity (10 or 11) models are readily available. The round also seems to be very effective in defensive situations. It is not however, a target caliber, at least not as far as I know. Having said that, I am sure that some of the IPSC shooters have very accurate custom guns. The 40 S&W (with a supported chamber) can also be "loaded up" quite significantly although extreme care must be used.
Peter.

As I have read about the 40 I keep hearing about the supported chamber. I am clueless about this supported chamber. Do all new 40's have supported chamber? how can you tell?

I don't think that the Glock does. Basically with a supported chamber, the feed ramp is part of the barrel rather than part of the frame. You should be able to lock the slide back and look at the feed ramp and see if it is one piece with the barrel. The point is that if the feed ramp is part of the frame, then the lower part of the barrel chamber is "unsupported" ie. there is a cutout for the ramp so that the round may feed into the barrel. Hope this makes sense. Others may have a better explanation. I will post a picture if I get the chance.
Peter.

I have 40s made by SIG, CZ, and Astra as well as a couple of 1911 based 40's. All of my .45s are 1911 based (single and double stack).

I have one 1911 Para with slide assemblies in 40 and 45.

For me a carry 40 is good ... a 45 is better. But the 40 really comes into its own when built on a 1911 frame with a ramped (fully supported) barrel and loaded to almost the same length as 10mm. These can really push a bullet to speed!

Fully supported means that the rear bottom of the cartridge case is fully supported by the barrel rather than having a place where the barrel is polished away to allow the round to enter the chamber. This unsupported area can come unglued at higher pressures.

Custom 40s can be very, very accurate and deliver terrific energy. I have gotten 1580 fps with the 135 gr Nosler bullet from a 4.5" comp gun barrel in a 1911. Barks like a Super!

If you're looking for a carry gun, find the one that fits and whose controls work for you.

I own a Ruger P91 in 40 with some custom work done to it.
I also have a Colt 1911 series 70 Stainless in 45.
I think both are great rounds and in the right gun they are both very accurate and deadly if need be.
Good 1911's cost MONEY! Ok ones are a bit more reasonable.
A good high quality 40 is more affordible, and cheaper to shoot if you don't reload. Also the 40 is a higher capasity gun. In my 2 guns cases. 11 in the P91 as aposed to 7 in the 1911.
Compact 40's are also cheaper and easer to find than compact 45's. If you are looking for a CCW rig I would go with the 40. For most people I think the 40 is more than enough gun. JMO
Have you looked at the 357 SIG? Thats a great little round also. If you buy a good Sig in 40 you can also get a barrel for 357 Sig, and have two great calibers to shoot out of the same weapon. That is a future plan of mine. Have always wanted a SIG, but as of yet it has not happened.
MM

I've been shooting 45's for so long that it just wouldn't make any sense for me to change to a different caliber now. The 40 doesn't show me much that my 45's can't do just as well.

Not to point out the obvious or anything but he didn't say what he was intending to be shooting at, why he would want either, whether or not he reloads, whether or not he wants to spend a little money or big money, hand size, previous shooting experience...the list goes on and on.

It's like asking me "Do I want a Mercedes or BMW of equivalent class?"

If I don't know the motivations for buying one or the other, I couldn't suggest why one would be better than the other.

Either one will kill things or punch holes in paper.

Figure out what a person is buying a tool for before you suggest what tool to buy.

Regards,
Thomas

Tom makes a good point. Do we assume this is for self defense/home defense? If so, either will do the job w/ good JHP ammo. I find that the pistol is more important than the caliber. The 40 can be had in smaller pistols holding more rounds. The 45acp is pretty easy to control w/ full power ammo & the 40 can be "snappy" in recoil w/ smaller/lighter pistols. The supported bbl. issue isn't a real problem unless you are buying an older Glock & handloading.
In Kalif. we are stuck w/ 10rd mags so higher cap. doesn't really come into play. A 10rd G22/23 or a 8rd 1911, take your pick.

There are many myths about the "unsupported chamber ". To start with the term is incorrect, it should be "less than fully supported ". The problem was mostly with Glock.The earlier versions had less support ,later ones changed to give more support. Careful handloading eliminates the problem. Stay within the published loads.Those that load to " lets see how hot I can load it" had the problem. Another problem contributing was to chamber a round numerous times .This can push the bullet back into the case and create excessive pressure.Federal was one company that increased the grip on the bullet to reduce the problem.

I'm with Fred on this one. If you find you can shoot a certain pistol really well, it just feels right and pistol manipulation seems intuitive, buy that pistol. In fact, if you are fast and furious with a certain pistol, and just shoot it better than all the others, then that is what you buy. If it turns out that the particular pistol you shoot well is available in either calibers, buy the one which is easier on your ammunition budget; you'll shoot it more often.

I plan to be mostly "fun shooting" at targets at fairly close distances. not competetion shooting. It will also serve as a self defense gun if needed. I will handload for whichever caliber I choose. The way I saw in my reloading manual is you can come really close to the foot pounds of the 45 with the 40. So I am currently leaning toward the 40 because of this and it is more controllable and cheaper to shoot.

Then you made a good choice, Elmo.

quote:

Originally posted by elmo729:
I plan to be mostly "fun shooting" at targets at fairly close distances. not competetion shooting. It will also serve as a self defense gun if needed. I will handload for whichever caliber I choose. The way I saw in my reloading manual is you can come really close to the foot pounds of the 45 with the 40. So I am currently leaning toward the 40 because of this and it is more controllable and cheaper to shoot.

Either will be fine for paper punching a HD. Since oyu are handloading, the platform you choose is more important than the cartridge. Having said that, a Springfield XD in 45acp would be a great range/HD pistol. The Tac version w/ 5" bbl. is amazingly accurate.

S&W 610 , 10mm or 40 , revolver , w/ moon clips.

im a 45 fan through and through but if you mainly going to use it to roll cans and plink id recomend you pass on both and buy yourself a 9mm. there still sutiable for self defense and if your not going to load your own the ammo is much cheaper and then either of the others. Buy some cheap 9mm for blasting and a box of good high tech hp ammo for self defense. Some of the 9mm ammo on the market runs close on the heals of a 357mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
Some of the 9mm ammo on the market runs close on the heals of a 357mag.

Not really Lloyd. Even +P+ ammo falls 150-200fps short of 357mag from comperable bbls. The 9mm will always be, well, a 9mm.

http://www.the-m-factor.com/

My son just bought one of them in 40. I shot it and was impressed. This is from someone who never liked "plastic" guns., and a die hard .45 and 1911 fan. The XDM .40 mag holds 16 rds. The kit my son got came with 2 mags , holster ,and mag holder plus a coupon for 2 more mags for free, all for less than $650.

quote:

Originally posted by OTTOMATIC:
http://www.the-m-factor.com/

My son just bought one of them in 40. I shot it and was impressed. This is from someone who never liked "plastic" guns., and a die hard .45 and 1911 fan. The XDM .40 mag holds 16 rds. The kit my son got came with 2 mags , holster ,and mag holder plus a coupon for 2 more mags for free, all for less than $650.

I'm with you on the 1911 fanatacism, but I love my XD45tac. Decent trigger, good grip angle & feel, almost as accurate as my best 1911. It easily prints groups under 1 1/2" @ 15yds offhand w/ good ammo. My best handlaods will go into 1", I can't beat that w/ a match 1911.

After posting I got to fire my sons XDM some more. Enuff so that I am buying one tomorrow.. I'll have to agree with fredj338. It's time to give the Kimbers a rest.

Neighbor of mine shot a crackhead/kidnapper/rapist on duty. .40 S&W worked fine. A 9mm, .357, .44 of either sort, .41, .45ACP, or Casull wouldn't have done any better or worse at the one shot stop because he had proper shot placement. .22LR Buckmark probably would have worked at the range it occurred at. Shoot what you are comfortable with and practice with within reason.

Shot placement and practice matter more in the final reckoning than a couple grains of bullet weight or fps here or there when you're talking about human sized creatures.

quote:

Originally posted by Precision Man:
Neighbor of mine shot a crackhead/kidnapper/rapist on duty. .40 S&W worked fine. A 9mm, .357, .44 of either sort, .41, .45ACP, or Casull wouldn't have done any better or worse at the one shot stop because he had proper shot placement. .22LR Buckmark probably would have worked at the range it occurred at. Shoot what you are comfortable with and practice with within reason.

Shot placement and practice matter more in the final reckoning than a couple grains of bullet weight or fps here or there when you're talking about human sized creatures.

SOunds all fine & good until you get into a gunfight. Your shot placement that would make smaller less effective rounds work fine will go to hell very quickly as you & the target are moving & cover or intermediate barriers some into play. Shoot the biggest caliber you can & feed it the best JHP you can, because while shot placement is everything, it si not the only thing.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by Precision Man:
Neighbor of mine shot a crackhead/kidnapper/rapist on duty. .40 S&W worked fine. A 9mm, .357, .44 of either sort, .41, .45ACP, or Casull wouldn't have done any better or worse at the one shot stop because he had proper shot placement. .22LR Buckmark probably would have worked at the range it occurred at. Shoot what you are comfortable with and practice with within reason.

Shot placement and practice matter more in the final reckoning than a couple grains of bullet weight or fps here or there when you're talking about human sized creatures.

SOunds all fine & good until you get into a gunfight. Your shot placement that would make smaller less effective rounds work fine will go to hell very quickly as you & the target are moving & cover or intermediate barriers some into play. Shoot the biggest caliber you can & feed it the best JHP you can, because while shot placement is everything, it si not the only thing.

A person that practices every day with a .380 has better odds than a person that practices twice a year with a 10mm. Everybody finds their balance. I like .45s but a lot of people have fallen dead to the lesser .40S&W over the years.

This has been argued for years and I don't see any point in getting over-exuberant about arguing it again. But, there is no substitute for tactics and amount of lead down range. I just suggest to people to make sure what they carry starts with a ".4" if it doesn't start and end with ".357 Magnum".

FWIW, my LEO friend was avoiding being mashed between a tree and the crackhead's car when he made the .40 S&W shot that stopped the crackhead/fight. He also practices regularly.

To each his own. .40s will kill people just as dead as .45s.

quote:

Originally posted by elmo729:
I plan to be mostly "fun shooting" at targets at fairly close distances. not competetion shooting. It will also serve as a self defense gun if needed. I will handload for whichever caliber I choose. The way I saw in my reloading manual is you can come really close to the foot pounds of the 45 with the 40. So I am currently leaning toward the 40 because of this and it is more controllable and cheaper to shoot.

I would shoot them both in whatever gun you're looking at before I would assume this to be true. If you don't have friends with the guns sometimes gun shops will let you shoot used guns before buying or ranges will rent them. I say this because the Glock and XD guns seem more controllable in 45 than 40 to me. The blast is often less in the lower pressure 45 too.

I've been in law enforcement since 1982 and usually carried one of the 3 on duty,,357, 38 Super or 45ACP. When the 40 came out I had to try it. I've owned several Sigs and Brownings. For me the Sig 229 in .40 is about the most perfect carry gun and is what I have now days. On my 2nd one if that says anything.

cant see where smaller could be better.

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
cant see where smaller could be better.

So by that logic, it would make sense to carry a Desert Eagle in .50AE for all people at all times over a .45?

Different circumstances, different tastes, different ammunition, different magazine capacities, etc. Neither one of them is a rifle, which is what you want in most fights but are unlikely to have. They all kill criminals.

If there was THE ONE PERFECT HANDGUN FOR EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE AND EVERYBODY there's only be one model for sale at the gun store, aye?

FWIW: Some .40 bullets make bigger holes than some .45 bullets. This also varies a lot depending on velocity and what they have to go through before they start penetrating flesh.

.270 130 grainer and a .30-06 180 grainer both kill antelope dead at 300 yards. Which one's better?

If defensive use is on the menu, make mine a .45. Bigger hole.......'nuff said

I have and carry a 45 Kimber Pro Carry, SIG 229 40 S&W, and a Glock 23 in 40 S&W with a Bar Sto barrel. The Glock is the most accurate with the other two close behind. My preference is the Kimber 45 as it seems more controlable and makes a bigger hole. Over the last few years I have had a problem with racoons in the hen house at night. I have dispatched quite a few with the three guns mentioned since they are kept by the front door and I carry on the farm.
I have killed them with 40 S&W 180gr HP & 155gr holowpoint and the 45 with 185gr hollowpoint & 200gr hollowpoint. Even shot a couple with 45 230gr ball and 40S&W 180 ball. I have shot them from 6 feet to 30 yards, sitting, standing and running. The 45 will put them down quicker. One could say that I have more confidence with the 45 but I'm comparing similar wounds from each caliber. Either caliber will do but make sure you practice with whatever you get. The hole size makes no difference if it's off target. Good shooting.